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Edit: Skipping mod approval due to a bug with edit.
Some of my argument why Yog can't be T0:
Have n
o proven capability in Babylon: Most characters in Babylon have their lore written in the past, the timeline before they enter Babylon (eg. on different planets unless proven in same planet like Grothier vs Sariel), Yog is no exception. Some of the most powerful characters in Babylon usually have their writing style being present time at Babylon, for example: Azathoth, Lupit, Ares, Hades, etc...
Made with standard Faith: Everything in Babylon is made with Faith (read Lupit story) which means the beast can eat any gods, the primary method is weaken them enough then eat. There are suggestions in Lupit's story that she can can also eat chairs and benches as food. Being standard Faith user means they can't make any significant damage to Lupit and at best they can only tank the beast's damage at some point. Only Fantasy Legend gods and gods using FL's power (prefer to magical girls) can deal damage to the beast.
imma focus on this part since other litteraly have nothing to do with Yog (whoever that 1-A potential girl is) and imma leave CN to someone else since i dont know chinese.
What this has to do with yog? you didnt provide anything that affects yog here, iirc heres also argued that she has her avatar form (the one in babylon) and her true Tao whatnot form in the OP and Summary of CRT
imma focus on this part since other litteraly have nothing to do with Yog (whoever that 1-A potential girl is) and imma leave CN to someone else since i dont know chinese.
What this has to do with yog? you didnt provide anything that affects yog here, iirc heres also argued that she has her avatar form (the one in babylon) and her true Tao whatnot form in the OP and Summary of CRT
There's only 1 T0 in the whole multiverse according to what I read on vsbattle wiki, the simplest way to detier T0 is using someone else significantly better.
There's mention about an "avatar" and that's it, no extra detail at what the avatar can do.
Currently I'm a bit ill so I can't comment about 1-A, but there's a "god" above the gods in Babylon so Yog in HG2 is worse than 1-A?
Have no proven capability in Babylon: Most characters in Babylon have their lore written in the past, the timeline before they enter Babylon (eg. on different planets unless proven in same planet like Grothier vs Sariel), Yog is no exception. Some of the most powerful characters in Babylon usually have their writing style being present time at Babylon, for example: Azathoth, Lupit, Ares, Hades, etc...
Made with standard Faith: Everything in Babylon is made with Faith (read Lupit story) which means the beast can eat any gods, the primary method is weaken them enough then eat. There are suggestions in Lupit's story that she can can also eat chairs and benches as food. Being standard Faith user means they can't make any significant damage to Lupit and at best they can only tank the beast's damage at some point. Only Fantasy Legend gods and gods using FL's power (prefer to magical girls) can deal damage to the beast.
I told you in the server not to clog the thread like this and yet - _ - Read the summary. will ya?
Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.
A god can be killed by a "god" who have better tier: The first known casualty in the Babylon world is Ares, who is known widely known as the strongest Babylon Academy god so there must be someone or something stronger than Yog.
If I am not mistaken, that "God" is the spirit of the ancient tree who is the creator of Wonderland. There's no mention of her being stronger than Yog. So, that's just an assumption.
In the HG2 multiverse, there's a character Ling Yi who is known to be the avatar of the HG2 writer group, what's make her special is that she is unbound by anything (she's the author of most HG2 story narratives), can even get knowledge from another games like Honkai Impact 3 (there's also Genshin slimes and Tears of Themis guys in HG2 but I'm not sure if she bring them from their original game) and put it to HG2.
C'mon seriously? really? Ling Yi is a meta character just like Da Wei appearing in mihoyo games. That's just plot manipulation. Prove about how she is unbound by anything or how she is superior than Yog Sothoth.
There's only 1 T0 in the whole multiverse according to what I read on vsbattle wiki, the simplest way to detier T0 is using someone else significantly better.
There's mention about an "avatar" and that's it, no extra detail at what the avatar can do.
theres a problem, your arguments havent proven that, nor did you adress anything against OP's arguments you only joined posted some scans and called it a day
quick recovery, assuming those stuff act as Anti feat for 1-A then shes losing it, if they have shown superiority over her then they are one layer above her
The stories got expanded a lot outside of Babylon Academy zone in recent years so many stuffs can't headcanon anymore, especially with Fantasy Legend.
You also have to explain the "new Faith element" outside of Babylon Academy zone (this is where the 12FL and Lupit comes from), and also explain what is Chaotic Faith and how it affect both standard Faith and this "new Faith element" (currently I can't find the CN name for this yet as there are many names that looks same).
If I am not mistaken, that "God" is the spirit of the ancient tree who is the creator of Wonderland. There's no mention of her being stronger than Yog. So, that's just an assumption.
God of the ancient tree is a literal tree can be view or touch and only exist in Wonderland (Wonderland is not related to Babylon). It is the common land that HoYo throws dead characters from mainline into.
C'mon seriously? really? Ling Yi is a meta character just like Da Wei appearing in mihoyo games. That's just plot manipulation. Prove about how she is unbound by anything or how she is superior than Yog Sothoth.
It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around, characters at times find a 'Real World' transcended of their own, which is more fictional in turn.
Characters inhabiting such realities can frequently be viewed as being infinitely more powerful than those they view as fictional as, similar to our own relationship with fiction, no matter how powerful something in fiction is, it can never attack reality. That makes such states relevant for the tiering of characters.
Can someone confirm for me if a writer that writes game story and is aware of the story she writes (basically most stuffs in the game) is fictional compared to her reality then this character count as R>F Transcendence?
There's also her comments in every game version trailer so I'm not sure if that was valid for R>F.
The stories got expanded a lot outside of Babylon Academy zone in recent years so many stuffs can't headcanon anymore, especially with Fantasy Legend.
You also have to explain the "new Faith element" outside of Babylon Academy zone (this is where the 12FL and Lupit comes from), and also explain what is Chaotic Faith and how it affect both standard Faith and this "new Faith element" (currently I can't find the CN name for this yet as there are many names that looks same).
Yeah I checked it again and I have mistaken that part. Even so, that "God" has no mention or appearance after that right? Does that "God" has any sort of comparison to Outer Gods? If there's no such evident present, this also has nothing to do with current crt.
Can someone confirm for me if a writer that writes game story and is aware of the story she writes (basically most stuffs in the game) is fictional compared to her reality then this character count as R>F Transcendence?
R>F character exists in a plane that qualitatively superior to others. Ling Yi is shown to exist alongside with normal Godheads. Then, it's just plot manipulation.
Yeah I checked it again and I have mistaken that part. Even so, that "God" has no mention or appearance after that right? Does that "God" has any sort of comparison to Outer Gods? If there's no such evident present, this also has nothing to do with current crt.
About this, I need to check myself if there are any "Outer god" words in the game.
There's no evident of "God" vs Outer Gods but "God" vs Ares the strongest in Babylon Academy is probably enough.
And given there's no suggestion of Yog ever appearing in Babylon, it's quite hard to tell if she is that strong (there's evidences of people entered Babylon appears to be much weaker than their original world).
R>F character exists in a plane that qualitatively superior to others. Ling Yi is shown to exist alongside with normal Godheads. Then, it's just plot manipulation.
No it's not plot manipulation, Ling Yi is completely outside of all 3 main multiverse (the mainline, the Wonderland and the Babylon), this is why you can find her chatting about contents in every possible multiverse (or universes depending on context).
(And sorry for machine translations, I use it to quick translate instead of typing all of them manually)
And capable of aware of HI3 world is way outside of what regular HoYoverse can do (the HG2 3 main multiverse doesn't have an imaginary tree or anything related to it as far as I searched game files).
About this, I need to check myself if there are any "Outer god" words in the game.
There's no evident of "God" vs Outer Gods but "God" vs Ares the strongest in Babylon Academy is probably enough.
And given there's no suggestion of Yog ever appearing in Babylon, it's quite hard to tell if she is that strong (there's evidences of people entered Babylon appears to be much weaker than their original world).
Just because the story called Ares as the strongest doen't necessarily mean she is the strongest. Not while we have outer gods who can harm these godheads and Babylon as a whole with their mere presences. "Strongest" in context sometimes doesn't really mean strongest. Yog sothoth has never stated to live inside Babylon, so can you stop this headcanon assumptions already cuz it's getting reptitive.
No it's not plot manipulation, Ling Yi is completely outside of all 3 main multiverse (the mainline, the Wonderland and the Babylon), this is why you can find her chatting about contents in every possible multiverse (or universes depending on context).
(And sorry for machine translations, I use it to quick translate instead of typing all of them manually)
Show the scans where Ling Yi is stated to be outside of all. She is just a normal human with plot manipulation ability. She is shown to exist to alongside with other godheads and she has no particular ability or superiority over godheads aside from her plot manipulation.
Just because the story called Ares as the strongest doen't necessarily mean she is the strongest. Not while we have outer gods who can harm these godheads and Babylon as a whole with their mere presences. "Strongest" in context sometimes doesn't really mean strongest. Yog sothoth has never stated to live inside Babylon, so can you stop this headcanon assumptions already cuz it's getting reptitive.
I'm have no comment about this as you are implying Yog is stuck in her original universe. Ares having the full server faction war to be voted as the strongest in Babylon so I only trust the whole server result, not you alone (you can refer to the 2017 faction war that impact the whole plot).
She is shown to exist to alongside with other godheads and she has no particular ability or superiority over godheads aside from her plot manipulation.
Did you watch the 10th anniversary joke plot too much?
Also plot manipulation only manipulate the plot, meanwhile R>F Transcendence means view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction'.
This is enough to prove Ling Yi is outside of all, full scan as you asked.
Cthullu != Outer Gods. Dreamland and Nordens aren't Outer Gods.
Outer Gods aren't compatible with Babylon as you can see Azathoth harming spiritual air with her presence and The Mother being able to crush the balance of ying and yang.
Find it in Lupit's Awaken, and given that Lupit also attempt to eat gods multiple times so they are indeed made from Faith.
You need to prove Outer Gods are also made up of faith. Whatever is going on with Babylon, Yog Sothoth has nothing to do with it unless it directly mentioned about Outer Gods and Yog Sothoth that can cause anti feat for Tier 0. Yog Sothoth being Tao alone is enough to say she has nothing to do with Babylon which still have Ying and Yang.
I'm have no comment about this as you are implying Yog is stuck in her original universe. Ares having the full server faction war to be voted as the strongest in Babylon so I only trust the whole server result, not you alone (you can refer to the 2017 faction war that impact the whole plot).
As I've said before, Yog Sothoth is more powerful than Ares. Winning the faction war by Fan votes and getting labelled as strongest doesn't really mean anything here since we're only comparing how Yog Sothoth is powerful. If you want to prove Ares is more powerful, you need to provide a feat that surpass Yog Sothoth. Fan vote strongest doesn't really mean anything. More over, iirc Yog Sothoth was not even in the game yet in 2017.
Did you watch the 10th anniversary joke plot too much?
Also plot manipulation only manipulate the plot, meanwhile R>F Transcendence means view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction'.
R>F means view the world as unreality, fiction from a higher plane that transcends the world ontologically. Ling Yi is always shown to exist in the same plane as Godheads. Here is one from "Rescue Ling Yi Project" faction war. Viewing something as fiction and manipulating plot and knowing the plot is just plot manipulation. Viewing the game as fiction alone isn't enough for R>F at all.....Simulanka could have been 1-A with that lol
Cthullu != Outer Gods. Dreamland and Nordens aren't Outer Gods.
Outer Gods aren't compatible with Babylon as you can see Azathoth harming spiritual air with her presence and The Mother being able to crush the balance of ying and yang.
First off, I don't see anything in the game mention about "Outer gods", those words are made up by some people on the internet. I need better proof to check if they (whatever Cthulhu characters you are saying) are really Outer gods at all.
You need to prove Outer Gods are also made up of faith. Whatever is going on with Babylon, Yog Sothoth has nothing to do with it unless it directly mentioned about Outer Gods and Yog Sothoth that can cause anti feat for Tier 0. Yog Sothoth being Tao alone is enough to say she has nothing to do with Babylon which still have Ying and Yang.
As I've said before, Yog Sothoth is more powerful than Ares. Winning the faction war by Fan votes and getting labelled as strongest doesn't really mean anything here since we're only comparing how Yog Sothoth is powerful. If you want to prove Ares is more powerful, you need to provide a feat that surpass Yog Sothoth. Fan vote strongest doesn't really mean anything. More over, iirc Yog Sothoth was not even in the game yet in 2017.
There's nowhere saying Yog > Ares, otherwise Ares will fight because she's interest with people claiming to be stronger. And you implying Yog isn't exist in Babylon in the first place so there's no way to check if Yog is T0.
The same faction from 2017 still wage war against Ares in 2024 even Ares was in coffin so fan vote for lore change does have meaning
R>F means view the world as unreality, fiction from a higher plane that transcends the world ontologically. Ling Yi is always shown to exist in the same plane as Godheads. Here is one from "Rescue Ling Yi Project" faction war. Viewing something as fiction and manipulating plot and knowing the plot is just plot manipulation. Viewing the game as fiction alone isn't enough for R>F at all.....Simulanka could have been 1-A with that lol
First off, I don't see anything in the game mention about "Outer gods", those words are made up by some people on the internet. I need better proof to check if they (whatever Cthulhu characters you are saying) are really Outer gods at all.
“我到底是善是恶？呵呵，善恶仅仅是人类界定立场的标准，岂能用来定义外神的行为？”
"Am I good or evil? Haha, good and evil are merely standards defined by humans to determine their stance. How could they possibly be used to define the actions of an Outer God?"
- Voicelines
At this point, I don't know what are you even smoking anymore buddy. China godheads existing doesn't mean Cthullu faction can't have chinese cosmology properties. As I have shown in summary before, Honkai Cosmology is also based on Chinese Cosmology with Tao, Ying and Yang. Yog Sothoth is not just Tao. She is also the wisdom giver of Buddha.
There's nowhere saying Yog > Ares, otherwise Ares will fight because she's interest with people claiming to be stronger. And you implying Yog isn't exist in Babylon in the first place so there's no way to check if Yog is T0.
The same faction from 2017 still wage war against Ares in 2024 even Ares was in coffin so fan vote for lore change does have meaning
The same goes for you. There's nowhere saying Ares > Yog. Yog wasn't even in the game in 2017. The word "Strongest" alone isn't enough to debunk Yog's tier 0. You need proofs. Not while Outer Gods can litearlly mess up the Babylon with their mere presence. Can Ares do that?
About Ling Yi, I am sure you aren't gonna convinced by my words alone. So, I will let staffs and other knowledgable memebers on R>F enlighten for you.
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.
- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God
Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist. Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.
Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.
Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.
This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.
This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
Ain't no way I have been inactive for months due to losing interest in vs debating and this nonsensical argument is still being used, influencing the Babylon simply means their hax is massive in range and there is nothing beyond that, it doesn't translate to being strong in any shape and form. Ares on the other hand is known to be the strongest in GGZ by Chinese fanbase (which you obviously do not participate there) for years, you can ignore this but you cannot ignore the fact that she is confirmed to be the strongest many times, not only by herself but by other characters too, and even by feats themselves (like easily withstanding the cannon that's said to be able to take down any known god).
Yog Sothoth however has nothing beyond a few descriptions that one can spend five minutes to understand her entire lore.
This is none of my concern and this also has nothing to do with current crt. Being the strongest by fan votes doesn't really mean Ares is the strongest power scaling wise. Yog Sothoth has statements fit for Tier 0 while Ares doesn't have any. I can't believe I'm saying to a person with over 4k messages.
There's no correlation or comparison between Godheads and Outer Gods aside from Outer Gods seem more frightening and avoided by godheads due to their existence alone. Locking eyes with Azathoth can make a godhead goes nut. Universal Nature and Chaos are afraid that letting the Mother walks on Babylon could crush the balance of Ying and Yang. Outer Gods are walking disasters in Babylon. Goddess of Wisdom Metis has memories of The Mother while not having clear memory of it. The Mother is stated to be the Mother Of All and call every godheads as her daughter. Her entry 2 is literally "Babylon Mother". Metis's library has recorded The Mother's existence in the darkest page as it's a forbidden knowledge.
I will not entertain your idea of "Ares being the strongest becuz she can tank Lupit's attack" anymore since it has nothing to do with Yog Sothoth at all. I will just wait for staff evaluations on this.
It's not exactly a rebuttal, just want to tell you how it hurts long-time native players to read someone' words about Yog Sothoth being stronger than Ares. But yea none of my concern, and you either.
The same statements that have contradictions to tier 0 thus Ultima changed his vote from agreement to neutral until someone can bring new evidence that can solve it, but unfortunately Yog Sothoth lore barely has any content so what he reads in the link by himself is already all he needs to know about Yog Sothoth. The fact that you even say Outer Gods are stronger than Godheads because one of them is called the mother by others (how does being the mother of someone even translate to being stronger??) already showed your terrible attempt to refute other arguments and all you do at this point is literally just writing as long as possible (even by adding redundant things) to address other points.
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.
- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God
Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist. Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.
Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.
Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.
This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.
This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.
- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God
Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist. Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.
Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.
Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.
This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.
This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
I actually saw bits and pieces of the OP before I asked for a summary, and saw who agreed and that Ultima seemed neutral. Plus, being Trinitheist myself, I actually do understand Divine Simplicity and Tier 0 stuff unironically far better than the 1-A to High 1-A stuff.
The description by itself qualifies for tier 0 but what matters here are the anti-feats stuff so being Trinitheist or not is not too relevant, given you have zero knowledge and context about this verse previously I don't think you can grasp everything properly in one minute. But I respect your opinion.
I agree with that statement, but the summarized refutes that were brief made sense to me. Furthermore, I did mention contentions about things originally brought up such as "Multiple parts" being a contention. Or the existence of physical embodiments/avatars/vessels separate from true self are also different stories from true selves having physical parts.
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.
- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God
Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist. Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.
Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.
Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.
This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.
This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
This one is for Ultima's re-evaluation. Ofc it's also for other staffs. Since Ultima was confused over entry 5 and I didn't explain enough in the summary, I would add more explanations to it.
Yog Sothoth's Kizuna has 5 entries. First four entries are about different religions. First was buddhism. Second was Taoism. Third was Christian. Fourth was Atheism. Tricky part is the fifth one. Let's break down the fifth entry lines by lines.
The paragraph starts with a speaker congratulating someone for reaching the place.
What's this place, you ask?
Oh... How should I put it, this is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal World, the Abode outside of Time-Space.
It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to all things, through great divine power.
So let me demonstrate for you how this divine power works.
The entry is only from the pov of the speaker and we can't see anything the other person is talking to the speaker. But if you as a reader might have questioned "where is 'here'. What is this place?". This will be important very soon. In this paragraph, the speaker is answering the question by telling the other person that the name doesn't really matter. And in this place, you can access all thing through great divine power and the speaker will show how divine power works.
Now that you're here, tell me, what is the greatest common denominator in the 4 previous stories, whether it be the Buddha, the Old Man, the King or the Speaker, what is it about them that's the same?
Bubbles? No, no, that's just a metaphor, a symbolic device, like the Sun God riding out in a golden carriage, it doesn't really HAVE to be a golden carriage, it's just that that's what the god likes.
—The truly biggest common denominator is language, and words.
The speaker asked the other person about the denominator in all previous four stories. That's the weird thing. Because the speaker just congratulated someone for reaching here just an instant ago. It's not possible for the speaker to tell the other person within that and the conversation here is continous. It's impossible unless the other person is us, the readers. Because we just went through four stories before reaching to the fifth. The speaker explained that Bubbles are just metaphor, symbolic device. And bubbles aren't the denominator, but rather languages and words.
Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this. You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.
This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.
Here's the real deal. The speaker said Language frames the world, words make the rules. It's just basically saying existence is just defined by words and languages. The speaker mentioned the other person as You. The speaker said you (other person) are looking this line of text and they (the speaker) is also looking back at you through this line of text. Okay, it's pretty obvious by now that this is clearly meta-fictional. It's impossible to consider the other person and the speaker are conversing on the same level of reality. This line is directly talking to us, readers. And the speaker continues about how Divine Power of God (Yog Sothoth) is the power of description or definition. To define something, you have to transcend it first. Because you are free from all thing, you can create all things. "We" from this pargraph is referring to the reader and the speaker. You might say, okay let's say the other person is the reader. What about the speaker? The speaker's existence isn't an anti feat to Yog's tier 0??
Yog Sothoth mainly grants wisdom to those who seek it. But seems like she has a cult that worships her as devout followers. But the weird thing is her followers can converse with us,readers. And seems like we have access to Yog's divine power too. It's really wacky.
Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.
—This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring it's spirituality.
Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.
By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth.
The speaker encourages us to create worlds with words and languages that are unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent. Even if these followers have access to parts of Yog Sothoth's divine power, they can't be tier 0 since you can't BECOME tier 0. I will end my explanation here. The rest is up to the staffs.
I also updated the profile a bit and changed some justifications.
What do you think about the following arguments and the ones in the posts afterwards? This is information from the apparent current manager of the wiki for this verse.
It rather seems that 灵衣娘 is a meta-character who's like the author of the franchise and appears in-various "stingers" and behind-the-scenes/bloopers content, but not necessarily part of the canon storyline itself. Honestly, if we're going by this type of stuff, even Bronyacan be tier 0 via owning miHoYo, which is the real-life company that governs all Hoyoverse projects (Honkai Impact 3rd, Gun Girls Z, Genshin Impact, etc.), though, I don't think we should incorporate these types of fourth-wall breaks into the main canonicity. Other than this, I don't have high confidence in the area of tier 0; 1-A seems to be rather very straightforward and fine, though.
I read that and posts following that; those appear to be anti-feats for the "Outer God" key that's actually an avatar/vessel and not the true self of Yog. And I said later said anti feats against vessels or avatars not having Tier 0 durability are not anti feats against true selves being Tier 0. I am open-minded about having 2nd thoughts given what Garrixian said, but 1-A still seems like a minimum; but true self seems to be another layer of R>F compared to other 1-A characters. But if Weaver has contentions against Garrixian's most recent statement, I'm all ears.
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