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GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

Okay again The other gods don't matter for this thread imo we can worry about them later.
I provided a theory tier for how it would work but don't think anyone responded to it.
Option A = Tier 0 is accepted
True form yog = tier 0
azathoth? = High 1-A+
Thanatos = ~1-A - high 1-A
zeus = 1-A
dreamland = ~low 1-A - 1-A

Option B tier 0 is rejected and 1-A is fine until we get more info for higher
Thanatos > zeus > concept
so Low 1-A there
1-A with azathoth, yog
then dreamland 2-A to low 1-A (gotta do some more research on the world lines, dreams, and how the dreamland continent works)

other options if can be decided of course but this my current thoughts. Babylon, wonderland, the outerspace, the colored gates, and any random other thing we can decide in a different thread or make a ggz general thread to discuss those scalign to make a crt + profile for them. but i feel we've gonna off topic as this was just for tier 0 yog and now we gonna and done some weird thing by showing the other gods and what not. ik they are relevant to the scaling of the outer gods but they can be decided later date.

I think personally for now low 1-A would be better then tier 0 but overall i am fine if tier 0 gets accepted or not so just gonna wait for ultima
 
I agree for Yog Sotthoth’s true form being tier 0.

In the her 4th Kizuna entry, Yog Sotthoth said that, unlike the Gods who were concepts, she was wisdom itself. She’s not an idea like them. This is further shown by the statement that the only thing that exists beyond the door to her home is wisdom.

Her 5th entry has some very interesting text.

“You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text. This is how divine power works.”

In her current state of being, Yog Sotthoth treats the entire cosmology from a fictional perspective.

“This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.”

Yog Sotthoth lacks all boundaries and definitions by virtue of being ontologically superior. None of the boundaries of the lower reality can be attached to her being. I don’t know if it matters here, but said lower reality includes a beyond dimensional object that cannot be understood by humans that contains absolute infinity.

“Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again. This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring its spirituality.”

Yog Sotthoth is the divine force behind creation, the wisdom behind words that cannot be contained by them.
 
Breakdown said:
I agree for Yog Sotthoth’s true form being tier 0.
Click to expand...
Tier 0 is pretty much clear. We just need staff votes to publish her profile page. Ultima is currently neutral. At this rate, it's gonna take forever to get this evaluated. Since it's tier 0 thread, it's hard to continue without Ultima. We're basically stuck here
 
Weaver261 said:
Tier 0 is pretty much clear. We just need staff votes to publish her profile page. Ultima is currently neutral. At this rate, it's gonna take forever to get this evaluated. Since it's tier 0 thread, it's hard to continue without Ultima. We're basically stuck here
Click to expand...
I know, I’m just stating my mind and argument.
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:
Okay again The other gods don't matter for this thread imo we can worry about them later.
I provided a theory tier for how it would work but don't think anyone responded to it.
Option A = Tier 0 is accepted
True form yog = tier 0
azathoth? = High 1-A+
Thanatos = ~1-A - high 1-A
zeus = 1-A
dreamland = ~low 1-A - 1-A

Option B tier 0 is rejected and 1-A is fine until we get more info for higher
Thanatos > zeus > concept
so Low 1-A there
1-A with azathoth, yog
then dreamland 2-A to low 1-A (gotta do some more research on the world lines, dreams, and how the dreamland continent works)

other options if can be decided of course but this my current thoughts. Babylon, wonderland, the outerspace, the colored gates, and any random other thing we can decide in a different thread or make a ggz general thread to discuss those scalign to make a crt + profile for them. but i feel we've gonna off topic as this was just for tier 0 yog and now we gonna and done some weird thing by showing the other gods and what not. ik they are relevant to the scaling of the outer gods but they can be decided later date.

I think personally for now low 1-A would be better then tier 0 but overall i am fine if tier 0 gets accepted or not so just gonna wait for ultima
Click to expand...
Will anyone tell me thoughts on this? So We can Make Some Profiles for GGZ people?

But yea there needs imo more then Yogs Kizaru for tier 0 we kinda soly relaying on it. I mean to me it seems cut and dry its either 1-A or tier 0.
 
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
Ultima_Reality said:
From what I can gather: Existence here is entirely defined by language, definition, and description, which provides a framework for reality and determines distinctions. Yog-Sothoth is beyond all those things and therefore beyond all boundaries and distinctions, which it sets in place to begin with.

The little story about the Tao seems to confirm that with the statement of "The name that can be named is not the eternal name," followed by "the name that can be named" being stated to be born from Yog-Sothoth's bubbles (i.e. Its power of definition). The story about the Buddha reiterates the same thing by saying a Bodhisattva has to leave behind all the marks of selfness and otherness, and eventually leave behind even the Dharma itself, since it is just a "raft" meant to lead you to what is ultimately ineffable. That, and the bit about all conditioned phenomena being illusions and etc.
Click to expand...
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
"This World behind the door, where time and space have come to a standstill, has only wisdom remaining."
Click to expand...
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.
Click to expand...
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
 
Weaver261 said:
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0

But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.

Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.

Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
Click to expand...
good job 👍
 
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