Genshin Tier 4 CRT

[Dog3352]

I wasn't talking about Qiqi. And the title itself pretty much displays they are using adeptal energy. I explained about it before already, and Xiao doesn't need his abilities to be called that as long as it's adeptal arts.

Which doesn't really matter, since the character being able to use adeptis energy is irrelevant.
Arts Adeptis = Talismans

And talisman is activated by channelling their energy. Adeptis art is conjured through energy.

Ok.

They used adeptis art created which is conjured from energy, as I said above, ditto.

Literally 0 proof, Arts Adeptis can be used by humans, the Traveler has already used it with Xiao, in addition to the human who created an Arts Adeptis. The fact that there is an energy called "Subspace Creation Energy" that creates the items already makes this very clear, in addition to the fact that at no point do the characters demonstrate such a level of power, to the point that Madame Ping considers it a mountain-level feat to create a subspace.

Why would they use another type of energy if they're using adeptal arts to create it?

Adeptis Arts do not need Adeptis Energy to be used, have you seriously forgotten everything we discussed earlier? I have already demonstrated humans using Adeptis Arts, in addition to the Traveler himself using it even before being imbued with Adeptis Energy.

I wasn't the one who brought this up. I already explained it to @TheGreatJedi13.

Ok.

 

[Dog3352]

Is this continuation of the topic seriously a repeat of all the other 4 pages? This seems like a damn joke.

 

[Giannysmag]

Is this continuation of the topic seriously a repeat of all the other 4 pages? This seems like a damn joke.

page number got changed, this would be the 3rd page instead of the 6th before

 

[Dog3352]

page number got changed, this would be the 3rd page instead of the 6th before

I forgot, thanks for the correction.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Which doesn't really matter, since the character being able to use adeptis energy is irrelevant.

Fair.

Ok.

Literally 0 proof, Arts Adeptis can be used by humans, the Traveler has already used it with Xiao, in addition to the human who created an Arts Adeptis. The fact that there is an energy called "Subspace Creation Energy" that creates the items already makes this very clear, in addition to the fact that at no point do the characters demonstrate such a level of power, to the point that Madame Ping considers it a mountain-level feat to create a subspace.

Yeah, it's been used by humans though what's the counteraction to that?

Adeptis Arts do not need Adeptis Energy to be used, have you seriously forgotten everything we discussed earlier? I have already demonstrated humans using Adeptis Arts, in addition to the Traveler himself using it even before being imbued with Adeptis Energy.

Ok.

Sigil of Permission

Sigils of Permission is a Quest Item obtained during the Archon Quest Rite of Descension in Chapter I: Act I - Of the Land Amidst Monoliths. It can also be obtained during Insights of Drifting Dreams in Xiao's Story Quest, Alatus Chapter: Act I - Butterfly's Dream. Sigils of Permission were once...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

Sigils of Permission were once created by Rex Lapis and infused with adeptal power.

Yes, it does. And Qiqi "not being able to fight doesn't" matter, if we blatantly see her do a feat conjuring Cryo energy with an ability with the term "Adeptus Arts" in them. You need adeptal energy for that.

Is this continuation of the topic seriously a repeat of all the other 4 pages? This seems like a damn joke.

I mean... we can halt this debate and see what the admins have to say. But I think my proposition stands out the most logical.

 

[Dog3352]

Fair.

Yeah, it's been used by humans though what's the counteraction to that?

Sigil of Permission

Sigils of Permission is a Quest Item obtained during the Archon Quest Rite of Descension in Chapter I: Act I - Of the Land Amidst Monoliths. It can also be obtained during Insights of Drifting Dreams in Xiao's Story Quest, Alatus Chapter: Act I - Butterfly's Dream. Sigils of Permission were once...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

Yes, it does. And Qiqi "not being able to fight doesn't" matter, if we blatantly see her do a feat conjuring Cryo energy with an ability with the term "Adeptus Arts" in them. You need adeptal energy for that.

I mean... we can halt this debate and see what the admins have to say. But I think my proposition stands out the most logical.

It means you don't need Adeptis Energy to use Adeptis Arts.

"Sigils of Permission were once created by Rex Lapis and infused with adeptal power."

The Sigil of Permission was created and then infused with Adepts Energy, this does not prove that it used Adepts Energy in its creation. Furthermore, the imbuing of Adeptal Energy was to use Permission Sigils, whether to use adeptis power or seal beings, it could be imbued with any other energy, an example of this is that Childe used Permission Sigils made by the fatuis themselves, who obviously did not have Adepts Energy or were created with Adepts Energy.

Yes, it does. And Qiqi "not being able to fight doesn't" matter, if we blatantly see her do a feat conjuring Cryo energy with an ability with the term "Adeptus Arts" in them. You need adeptal energy for that.

No, there was literally a human using a Permission Sigil in Xiao's Story Quest, you don't need to have Adeptis Energy to use a Permission Sigil. And once again, being able to infuse Adeptis power into an Adeptis Art (Permission Sigil) proves nothing, especially when even a human (who has neither elemental energy nor adeptis energy) was able to use the Permission Sigil.

 

[Avengershows]

I'd say you're even incorrect about that

I'm not, there's explicit statements saying that Bubble Worlds have a background that isn't composed of the real Sun and Moon & other things.

That's Honkai you're talking about

Please read the entire thing I sent. I'm not equating them, I'm saying that the company is known for doing this shit.

 

[Giannysmag]

UNIVERSAL ENERGY SYSTEM

The Universal Energy System of Genshin is elementary energy wielded by allogenes and adepti energy is a variant of the UES.

As stated by the messages shown above, Qiqi's ability all has the term "Adepti Energy" in it and adding to the fact that Qiqi is also an adepti, we can confirm that adeptal power is a type of energy part of the Universal Energy System of Genshin. Waijing is a method of sub-space creation that allows the user to create pocket dimensions out of their imagination.

Sub-Space Creation

Sub-Space Creation or Waijing (Chinese: 外景 Wàijǐng, "Outdoor Scene")[1] is an adeptal ability used to create small, autonomous pocket worlds through imagination.[1][2] This technique also be used to create larger abodes, such as the Realm of Clouds[3] and the Sea Gazer's Abode.[4][5] This...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

This ability was a blessing from Rex Lapis and has been used during troubling times for some brief respite.[3] Even though it is a powerful adeptal ability, it does have limitations: one cannot build a whole city inside, since it is not a true world.[4]

From the description above, we can conclude that Waijing is an adeptal ability and therefore functions through the harness of adeptal energy.

Nothing you said here proves that Adeptal Energy is part of the UES, from what we know Adeptal energy is a completely seperate power system than elemental energy

As we see from that section of the article, the Traveler can create furnishing materials out of resources harvested from Teyvat (which is Genshin's main world, therefore it's real).

Said materials also have different properties compared to their normal versions

The Traveler can stand, run, and pretty much move freely around the realm and interact with the tangible matter in the realm.

Logically speaking, all of the furnishing material inside of the realm can be inferred as "tangible" and for it to interact with the Earth inside the realm, the ground has to be tangible as well. Therefore, if the Earth is tangible then the star of the realm has to be tangible as well.

Traveler being able to interact with the world doesn't disprove it being imaginery, it would just be a property of the realm

Another doubt is that the "star" within the realm isn't an actual star, but rather a light source which well... I don't have much to counteract with that. Many people would juxtapose the "sun" in the realm and the light source in Enkanomiya. However, if you watch closely many parts of Enkanomiya are quite dark compared to many well-lightened places on Earth not to mention the entire territory is underground.



And not even the entirety of Enkanomiya is lightened. So we can conclude that the light source in Enkanomiya isn't entirely the same as the "sun" in the sub-space pocket dimensions, visually speaking.

The "suns" in the realms could simply be a more powerful light source than the one in Enkanomiya

Logically speaking, we wouldn't consider a star that lights up a planet not to be a star which also applies to this case, where the "sun" of the realm not being the size of a star is less likely.

It is likely when the realm is explicitely stated to be sub-city sized, which you yourself mentioned

I don't really have much more to comment on with the points of the OP since other people have already done that, so i wanna comment on why Tier 4 genshin as whole simply doesn't work imo

Spoiler: Fontaine Archon Quest

Currently practically all of the feats we have for the archon/god tiers are in the Tier 7/6 range. The only exeption to this is potential Tier 5 black whole feat from the recent archon quest that me and @Aether2734 are in disagreement on wether is valid or not. Everything else is massively below the porposed tiers. It's made even more apperent that Tier 6 is around the limit of the Archons in the recent archon quest where Focalor (the hydro archon) kills herself with the amount of energy that could power Fontaine for millenia. This was calced by @Naitodesu in the Genshin discussion thread as being High 6-C, which can be a high ball or a low ball depending on interpertation, but it pretty definitevely caps the archons in the Tier 6 range

 

[Dog3352]

Arts Adeptus: Arts Adeptis are skills created by the Adeptis.

It is not necessary to have Adeptis Energy to use them, and there is no need to imbue Adeptis Energy, as even humans can use Adeptis Arts.

"Shiki Taishou: He made his way across the ocean to seek the adepti of Liyue, and went on to study the adepti arts. He combined those subtle techniques with the art of transcension that he himself had practiced over the years, and founded the earliest version of onmyoudou."

So there's no such thing as "It's an Adeptis Arts, so they use Adeptis Energy".

"Permission Sigils" can be used by anyone, as long as they are already imbued with any type of energy.

"Starsnatcher's ability to purge evil stems from the Sigil of Permission.
After an unforeseen mishap, you chase to a group of hilichurls with an evil aura..."

I think it's already pretty obvious that Adeptis Energy is not necessary to use Adeptis Arts.

Adepts Energy: A type of Energy possessed by Adeptus.

There isn't much to say about Adeptus Energy, the only time it is clearly used is to imbue the Traveler with it, which gave him speed (Xiao), shock wave creation (Madame Ping) and Healing (Ganyu) , there is no deeper exploration of this energy.

Subspace: Subspace Creation and Subspace Creation Energy

The creation of Subspace is clearly said to be something created using "the power of the mind"

This is everything we have about how the subspace is created, in addition to the necessary items (they are not important).
I say that Adeptus Energy is not necessary nor that they use it in the creation of Subpsace for simple reasons.

First: No Adeptus Arts have been shown to require Adeptus Energy to use. In addition to not having a single statement that says it uses Adeptus Energy to create Subspace.

Second: Subspace Creation Energy is constantly being mentioned in Subspace items, and as we have already seen that no Adeptus Arts use Adepts Energy, and that humans can use it, what comes closest is that if there is an energy being used to create Subspace, it would be "Subspace Creation Energy", Subspace items have such energy, the name of the energy is literally "Subspace Creation Energy", Madam Ping comparing throwing a mountain to creating a Subspace and saying that throwing a mountain is a superior feat, the countless anti -feats and statements, etc.

Final:

It is not necessary to have Adeptus Energy to use Adeptus arts;
Humans are capable of using adeptus arts;
None of the Adeptus Arts are stated to require Adepts Energy to use;
The Subspace Energy Creation has more likely to be used than Adeptus Energy (In the Subspace Creation);
There are countless anti-feats and statements that go against this scale;
The creation of the Subspace does not scale to AP, as it does not use a universal energy system of the verse (elemental energy/power or Adeptus Energy), in the best case scenario using a specific type of Energy that would only be used to create the Subspace and the items within it (Subspace Creation Energy), and even that is arguable, as perhaps it only uses the "power of the mind (thought)".

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah with the above I really don't see Tier 4 being valid at the moment.

 

[Dog3352]

I really don't want to delve into tier 4, for several reasons (it takes away my patience, the arguments are being repeated, etc.), I've already given my final verdict, and I'll only comment again here if necessary.

About the CRT: I hope it is already written out of existence and never mentioned again (not without new arguments), and I obviously disagree.

Good night/morning/afternoon to all

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah with the above I really don't see Tier 4 being valid at the moment.

Alright then, that's one disagreement from the staff
Can you guys ping @DarkDragonMedeus again for the re-evaluation? He just said agreement without giving more in-depth observation, but now Qawsed already cemented his conclusion, he need to see this

 

[GarrixianXD]

It means you don't need Adeptis Energy to use Adeptis Arts.

"Sigils of Permission were once created by Rex Lapis and infused with adeptal power."

The Sigil of Permission was created and then infused with Adepts Energy, this does not prove that it used Adepts Energy in its creation. Furthermore, the imbuing of Adeptal Energy was to use Permission Sigils, whether to use adeptis power or seal beings, it could be imbued with any other energy, an example of this is that Childe used Permission Sigils made by the fatuis themselves, who obviously did not have Adepts Energy or were created with Adepts Energy.

Sub-Space Creation or Waijing (Chinese: 外景 Wàijǐng, "Outdoor Scene")[1] is an adeptal ability used to create small, autonomous pocket worlds through imagination.

Subspace creation is an adeptal ability, as I explained countless times. Nonetheless, if it's not it still uses the sub-space creation energy, which is also associated with the adeptus. Why would we assume that sub-space creation energy is different from adeptal energy?

No, there was literally a human using a Permission Sigil in Xiao's Story Quest, you don't need to have Adeptis Energy to use a Permission Sigil. And once again, being able to infuse Adeptis power into an Adeptis Art (Permission Sigil) proves nothing, especially when even a human (who has neither elemental energy nor adeptis energy) was able to use the Permission Sigil.

Starsnatcher was able to use it because sigils itself has already been imbued with the power of the adepti. So of course he can use it because it's like a weapon. Qiqi uses a different type of sigil, which isn't the Sigil of Permission.

Qiqi

Qiqi (Chinese: 七七 Qīqī) is a playable Cryo character in Genshin Impact. Resurrected as a zombie by the adepti, she has ended up in Baizhu's care and now works at Bubu Pharmacy in Liyue Harbor. Toggle Ascension MaterialsTotal Cost (0✦ → 6✦) Each Constellation activation requires one Qiqi's Stella...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

One is called the Icevein Talisman and the other is the Fortune-Preserving Talisman. They aren't the same as the Sigil of Permission.

Nothing you said here proves that Adeptal Energy is part of the UES, from what we know Adeptal energy is a completely seperate power system than elemental energy

Uhm, you wanna specify? Adeptal energy is correlated to the energy system because you can conjure elemental energy with adeptus art. Even if it's not the same, it'll still be a part of the UES just not so straightforward.

Said materials also have different properties compared to their normal versions

Yes, they have different properties but not “imaginary". And it mentioned a type of energy that alters their properties.

Traveler being able to interact with the world doesn't disprove it being imaginery, it would just be a property of the realm

Refer to my previous statement about "different properties".

The "suns" in the realms could simply be a more powerful light source than the one in Enkanomiya

It is likely when the realm is explicitely stated to be sub-city sized, which you yourself mentioned

I never said it's sub-city sized, nor has it been stated to be sub-city sized. I said that the travel limit is only sub-city sized, a big difference between that and the actual size of the realm.

I don't really have much more to comment on with the points of the OP since other people have already done that, so i wanna comment on why Tier 4 genshin as whole simply doesn't work imo

Spoiler: Fontaine Archon Quest

Currently practically all of the feats we have for the archon/god tiers are in the Tier 7/6 range. The only exeption to this is potential Tier 5 black whole feat from the recent archon quest that me and @Aether2734 are in disagreement on wether is valid or not. Everything else is massively below the porposed tiers. It's made even more apperent that Tier 6 is around the limit of the Archons in the recent archon quest where Focalor (the hydro archon) kills herself with the amount of energy that could power Fontaine for millenia. This was calced by @Naitodesu in the Genshin discussion thread as being High 6-C, which can be a high ball or a low ball depending on interpertation, but it pretty definitevely caps the archons in the Tier 6 range

Seems like that calculation was rejected.

Arts Adeptus: Arts Adeptis are skills created by the Adeptis.

It is not necessary to have Adeptis Energy to use them, and there is no need to imbue Adeptis Energy, as even humans can use Adeptis Arts.

Refer to my previous statement about the Sigil of Permission. It lines up the logic that it indeed requires Adeptis Energy.

"Shiki Taishou: He made his way across the ocean to seek the adepti of Liyue, and went on to study the adepti arts. He combined those subtle techniques with the art of transcension that he himself had practiced over the years, and founded the earliest version of onmyoudou."

So there's no such thing as "It's an Adeptis Arts, so they use Adeptis Energy".

Is this the omniquity net quest? Yeah, it’s stated to use adeptal art to create sub-space. Therefore sub-space creation is indeed adeptal art. I’ve explained this several times already.

"Permission Sigils" can be used by anyone, as long as they are already imbued with any type of energy.

"Starsnatcher's ability to purge evil stems from the Sigil of Permission.
After an unforeseen mishap, you chase to a group of hilichurls with an evil aura..."

I think it's already pretty obvious that Adeptis Energy is not necessary to use Adeptis Arts.

And does this prove anything that adeptal energy isn’t adeptal art? Never stated it can be used by anyone and I explained how Starsnatcher can use it.

Adepts Energy: A type of Energy possessed by Adeptus.

There isn't much to say about Adeptus Energy, the only time it is clearly used is to imbue the Traveler with it, which gave him speed (Xiao), shock wave creation (Madame Ping) and Healing (Ganyu) , there is no deeper exploration of this energy.

Subspace: Subspace Creation and Subspace Creation Energy

The creation of Subspace is clearly said to be something created using "the power of the mind"

There’s been statements about it that delves into its lore, enough said. It doesn’t refute my arguments.

This is everything we have about how the subspace is created, in addition to the necessary items (they are not important).
I say that Adeptus Energy is not necessary nor that they use it in the creation of Subpsace for simple reasons.

First: No Adeptus Arts have been shown to require Adeptus Energy to use. In addition to not having a single statement that says it uses Adeptus Energy to create Subspace.

Sigil of Permission, Qiqi’s talents, I’ve stated several times and rebuked your arguments already.

Second: Subspace Creation Energy is constantly being mentioned in Subspace items, and as we have already seen that no Adeptus Arts use Adepts Energy, and that humans can use it, what comes closest is that if there is an energy being used to create Subspace, it would be "Subspace Creation Energy", Subspace items have such energy, the name of the energy is literally "Subspace Creation Energy", Madam Ping comparing throwing a mountain to creating a Subspace and saying that throwing a mountain is a superior feat, the countless anti -feats and statements, etc.

Refer to my statement on the Sigil of Permission. It’s already been imbued with Adeptal Power, hence why humans can use it.

I like how you rebutted my statements that the title of Qiqi’s talent which contains “Adeptal Art” shouldn’t be taken into consideration but the explicit mention of “Sub-space Creation Energy”. You just validated my point that adeptus art is indeed adeptal energy which is also “sub-space creation energy”; because it was used to create the Omni-Ubiquity Net (a pocket dimension). So you just proven my point that adeptal art created pocket dimensions, which on-fact, also contains “sub-space creation energy”. I linked ties with Adeptal Art and Adeptal Energy, and why they’re correlated, no need to repeat myself.

Final:

It is not necessary to have Adeptus Energy to use Adeptus arts;
Humans are capable of using adeptus arts;
None of the Adeptus Arts are stated to require Adepts Energy to use;

Refer to my statement on Starsnatcher.

The Subspace Energy Creation has more likely to be used than Adeptus Energy (In the Subspace Creation);
There are countless anti-feats and statements that go against this scale.

Refer to my statement on adeptal arts and Ubiquity Net, also all my explanations why adeptal energy and arts are practically the same.

Yeah with the above I really don't see Tier 4 being valid at the moment.

Would you rather consider my stance or should I put you on the disagree section?

Alright then, that's one disagreement from the staff
Can you guys ping @DarkDragonMedeus again for the re-evaluation? He just said agreement without giving more in-depth observation, but now Qawsed already cemented his conclusion, he need to see this

Qaws said “not at the moment”. @DarkDragonMedeus Sorry for the ping, may I please ask do you have any intel to give?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well even so, Qawsed stance is already speak it enough for disagreement tbh

I'm still in true neutral because i can totally see why this tier 4 can be legit now, but the opposed members has a very good points on why this is not right, and sadly you are way outnumbered

 

[GarrixianXD]

Well even so, Qawsed stance is already speak it enough for disagreement tbh

I’ll await for his reply. He sometimes acts like he disagrees but he’s actually unsure.

I'm still in true neutral because i can totally see why this tier 4 can be legit now, but the opposed members has a very good points on why this is not right, and sadly you are way outnumbered

Ehh… I repeated myself like several times sane with the opposition. Same old shit ngl.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Ehh… I repeated myself like several times sane with the opposition. Same old shit ngl.

That's the issue, repeated yourself has make the opposed members tired with you, it make you looks like an "rock-headed" with this kind of thing lel

 

[Qawsedf234]

He sometimes acts like he disagrees but he’s actually unsure.

Currently my stance from last time hasn't changed. I don't think this really meets requirements for an AP feat and I don't think enough has been provided to prove the space has a real star within it rather than just a light source.

 

[GarrixianXD]

That's the issue, repeated yourself has make the opposed members tired with you, it make you looks like an "rock-headed" with this kind of thing lel

My arguments about titles were pretty much shunned ngl.

 

[Dog3352]

Subspace creation is an adeptal ability, as I explained countless times. Nonetheless, if it's not it still uses the sub-space creation energy, which is also associated with the adeptus. Why would we assume that sub-space creation energy is different from adeptal energy?

1. I know it's an Adeptus Art.
2. Because it's another energy, and it would only be used to create the subspace and the items inside, so it naturally wouldn't scale to AP.

Starsnatcher was able to use it because sigils itself has already been imbued with the power of the adepti. So of course he can use it because it's like a weapon. Qiqi uses a different type of sigil, which isn't the Sigil of Permission.

That's the point, Permission Sigils are created and then imbued with Adeptus Energy, that's still not an argument for your side, but it's not like it matters, the Traveler using adeptus arts, a human using it and even merging it with another art, among others, already demonstrates that Adeptus Energy is clearly not needed to use Adeptus arts.

One is called the Icevein Talisman and the other is the Fortune-Preserving Talisman. They aren't the same as the Sigil of Permission.

The talismans in Qiqi are Permission Sigils created by the Adeptus, but ohers the variation.
"Yes, you've guessed correctly. The preservation of a thread of Qiqi's consciousness was in fact the work of the adepti. It's also thanks to Qiqi that I managed to come up with a way to save someone on the brink of death. Since the adepti took pity on this child and even used their arts to keep her on this side of existence, I thought I'd take the opportunity to keep her around the pharmacy. There's no harm in that, is there?"

Mystic Arts in Teyvat

Mystic Arts encompasses various forms of magic, rituals, or otherwise supernatural abilities practiced in the continent of Teyvat. Alchemy is openly practiced in Mondstadt. Because of this, various sub-categories of alchemy exist. Although Liyue's adepti also practice their own form of alchemy...

genshin-impact.fandom.com

Lmao? No, your comment only proved that the Adeptus imbue their power into the Talisma, not that Adeptus Energy is necessary in the creation of the Talisma, that doesn't prove anything.

Is this the omniquity net quest? Yeah, it’s stated to use adeptal art to create sub-space. Therefore sub-space creation is indeed adeptal art. I’ve explained this several times already.

And it says that a human used Adeptus Arts, in addition to the Traveler using it too, so it is quite obvious that Adeptus Energy is not necessary to use Adeptus Arts.

And does this prove anything that adeptal energy isn’t adeptal art? Never stated it can be used by anyone and I explained how Starsnatcher can use it.

Did I say you said that?

There’s been statements about it that delves into its lore, enough said. It doesn’t refute my arguments.

Did you refute? At what point did you refute this? It's literally a statement from the game itself.

Sigil of Permission, Qiqi’s talents, I’ve stated several times and rebuked your arguments already.

Permission Sigils are only imbued with Adeptus Energy, and not used to create it, this is no argument, and the same thing as saying that if an item is imbued with Adeptus Energy it will be an Adeptus Art instantly. The talismans in Qiqi are just other variations of the Permission Sigil, so it's not an argument. The Permission Sigil is an Adeptus Art because it is an ability created by Adeptus, and not because it is imbued with Adeptus Energy (otherwise no Adeptus Art would be an Adeptus Art).

Refer to my statement on the Sigil of Permission. It’s already been imbued with Adeptal Power, hence why humans can use it.

I like how you rebutted my statements that the title of Qiqi’s talent which contains “Adeptal Art” shouldn’t be taken into consideration but the explicit mention of “Sub-space Creation Energy”. You just validated my point that adeptus art is indeed adeptal energy which is also “sub-space creation energy”; because it was used to create the Omni-Ubiquity Net (a pocket dimension). So you just proven my point that adeptal art created pocket dimensions, which on-fact, also contains “sub-space creation energy”. I linked ties with Adeptal Art and Adeptal Energy, and why they’re correlated, no need to repeat myself.

Subspace Creation Energy is mentioned in several items, and it is a completely unique detailed energy, Qiqi just has a name in the skill, which can easily be argued that it only has that name because it uses talismans that are another variation of the Permission Sigils (Adeptus Art). Again, you don't have a single decent proof of Adeptus Energy being used in the creation of Subspace, and how am I validating your point when I literally say it doesn't use Adeptus Energy? Yes, the Waijing created a pocket dimension, but once again, not a single decent proof of Adeptus Energy was used to create it. Its only reason is the Secrecy of Permission and the name on Qiqi's skills, I have several statements from the lore itself, game and characters.

Refer to my statement on Starsnatcher.

Consult the Traveler using Adeptus Arts and another human using Adeptus Arts.

Refer to my statement on adeptal arts and Ubiquity Net, also all my explanations why adeptal energy and arts are practically the same.

Again, it's the name of an ability versus various lore, game, and character statements

Again, from the beginning, the argument for Subspace using Adeptus Energy is literally the name of Qiqi's abilities (and now the Permission Sigil), which can easily be argued to be so named for using variations of Permission Sigils (Adeptus Arts), or it would not be enough proof, as it is mere speculation, in addition to being speculation against statements about the lore, game and characters. The Permission Sigil argument doesn't even make sense, the Permission Sigil is an Adeptus Art because it is an ability created by the Adeptus, and not because it is imbued with Adeptus Energy after its creation.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I’m quite loaded at the moment. Gonna make a full response later but rn I’m gonna say that sigils are literally sigils itself, but not an ability. I’m sure that’s fairly obvious.

 

[Vzearr]

Agree with the opposition.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While it is a long read and don't understand everything; but the basics is that characters do use energy to create pocket worlds and they use energy for elemental attacks and what not. Worst case scenario is it being Non-Physical as an energy system as opposed to Universal. But technically, if characters still consistently trade blows with with elemental energy attacks, then it can still scale to durability even if the energy system isn't 100% universal. And likewise, if characters still trade blows with physical attacks, it can still scale to striking strength in turn.

 

[GarrixianXD]

While it is a long read and don't understand everything; but the basics is that characters do use energy to create pocket worlds and they use energy for elemental attacks and what not. Worst case scenario is it being Non-Physical as an energy system as opposed to Universal. But technically, if characters still consistently trade blows with with elemental energy attacks, then it can still scale to durability even if the energy system isn't 100% universal. And likewise, if characters still trade blows with physical attacks, it can still scale to striking strength in turn.

Yes, the characters use adeptal arts to create pocket worlds and also use them for combat. I've shown clips of adeptal energy harming enemies and functions similarly to that of elemental energy, so adeptal energy should scale to AP. I also proved how adeptal arts are conjured through adeptal energy, though Dog refuted it and I countered back and now we're pretty much in a constant cycle of repeated skirmishes with not many new arguments. The only doubt is the size of the realm as well if the sun could be real or not, however, I proved that the sky isn't explicitly inferred to be "fake", just many lore conspiracists in the Genshin fandom created that headcanon (The sky being "fake" caused many users on the opposition side to assume that the sun is also "fake" but I already debunked that stemming belief). I proved how the matter in the realm is indeed real, and even opposition members such as AvengerShows agreed with it; if the matter is real then technically, the Sun in the realm should also be real hence, it's matter. The only real iffy logic is the size of the realm which I genuinely have no counterargument against since we don't have standards and many users including Qaws state that the realm might be extremely tiny, and that the Sun in the sky might not be a size of a star (which all stems from the iffy statement "the Traveler can't build a city" which well, I clarified it using world barriers of the Serenitea Pot but AvengerShows pointed out that was game mechanics. I rebuked his argument by saying that Teyvat doesn't have a world barrier and you can only see it in the Serenitea Pot, when well, IIRC, he got no new argument against that; therefore I don't think the world barrier is a game mechanic thingy).

 

[Dog3352]

While it is a long read and don't understand everything; but the basics is that characters do use energy to create pocket worlds and they use energy for elemental attacks and what not. Worst case scenario is it being Non-Physical as an energy system as opposed to Universal. But technically, if characters still consistently trade blows with with elemental energy attacks, then it can still scale to durability even if the energy system isn't 100% universal. And likewise, if characters still trade blows with physical attacks, it can still scale to striking strength in turn.

You are confusing Elemental Energy with "Subspace Creation Energy", even if you actually used Subspace Creation Energy to create Subspace, that energy would only be used to create Subspace and the items within it, and it was never used (it was never mentioned /declared) into anything else.

 

[GarrixianXD]

You are confusing Elemental Energy with "Subspace Creation Energy", even if you actually used Subspace Creation Energy to create Subspace, that energy would only be used to create Subspace and the items within it, and it was never used (it was never mentioned /declared) into anything else.

I already explained how this "Subspace Creation Energy" is practically the same as Adeptal Energy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unless we have statements about them being "Illusions" or "Part of a Genjutsu" or what not, it's always been the standard assumption that pocket dimensions containing a sun, moon, or stars is that the stuff in the sky are real.

Though, on topic, calculations for realms containing a sun are actually just plain 4-C iirc. KLOL has recalculated it given that Kaltias kind of added a few extra 0's by accident due to using European grammar style for numbers (Using commas for decimals and periods for 3 digit places as opposed to how things are reversed in the America's). And something about online calculators favoring American styles.

But KLOL recalculated it to be slightly below baseline 4-C with DT noting the GBE of the sun would be added via simple addition. So the AP for realms containing a sun is just slightly below 2x the baseline of 4-C.

 

[Dog3352]

I already explained how this "Subspace Creation Energy" is practically the same as Adeptal Energy.

I don't remember this explanation, put it again.
I just remember you saying that they are both the same because the Adeptus have both energies.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I don't remember this explanation, put it again.
I just remember you saying that they are both the same because the Adeptus have both energies.

Adeptal arts = creation of omni ubiquity nets = sub-space creation

Adeptal arts conjure adeptal energy. I explained about this countless times, and you're against it.

Unless we have statements about them being "Illusions" or "Part of a Genjutsu" or what not, it's always been the standard assumption that pocket dimensions containing a sun, moon, or stars is that the stuff in the sky are real.

It's been mentioned that the world itself is imaginary but not all the land and stars contained in there. Heck, it's even been stated that material there have different properties rather than explicitly mentioning it as "fake" or "imaginary". And the Traveler can implement real materials into the realm, unlike actual illusions and imaginary domains.

Though, on topic, calculations for realms containing a sun are actually just plain 4-C iirc. KLOL has recalculated it given that Kaltias kind of added a few extra 0's by accident due to using European grammar style for numbers (Using commas for decimals and periods for 3 digit places as opposed to how things are reversed in the America's). And something about online calculators favoring American styles.

Yeah, my bad. I forgot to edit the High 4-C out.

But KLOL recalculated it to be slightly below baseline 4-C with DT noting the GBE of the sun would be added via simple addition. So the AP for realms containing a sun is just slightly below 2x the baseline of 4-C.

I see. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Dog3352]

Adeptal arts = creation of omni ubiquity nets = sub-space creation

Adeptal arts conjure adeptal energy. I explained about this countless times, and you're against it.

-_- , that's why I didn't remember this explanation of yours, and only your argument about the Permission Sigils and Qiqi's abilities. Well, let's go.

In Shenhe's lore, despite being a human/mortal, it is stated that she has enormous talent for Adeptus Arts, in addition to being said that she became a master in Adeptus Arts, and she has also created her own Sigil (demonstrating that there are other type of Sigils);
A human managed to learn Adeptus Arts and combine Aseptus Art (Waijing) with his own Art (transcendence) and create another art, once again demonstrating that Adeptus Arts are simply the skills created by Adeptus, and not the manipulation of Adeptus Energy;
Traveler used Adeptus Arts long before he was imbued with Adeptus Energy (Xiao Story Quest);
The game, lore and Xiao several times call the ability Adeptus Arts (Xiao Story Quest), even those that have already been used by humans (making it obvious once again that Adeptus Arts is not related to the manipulation of Adeptus Energy);
The Omni Ubiquity Nets itself is an "evolution" of an Adeptus Art created by a human, in addition to the Omni Ubiquity Nets itself being created by a human;
Omni Ubiquity Nets is an "evolution" of Onmyoudou, and has total connection with Subspace, keeping the essence of animals in Subspace, and taking into account that Omni Ubiquity Nets, which is an evolution of Onmyiudou, has a connection and similarity with Waijing, It's pretty obvious that Waijing (Subspace's creation) was used to create Onmyoudou (created by a human), and then it was "evolved" into Omni Ubiquity Nets (still by a human), which means that a human used Waijing, what else once, it makes it obvious that Adeptus Energy is not needed to use Adeptus Arts (Labyrinth Warriors Event)

There are several other proofs/statements in the lore, but I'm sure this is enough to prove my point (that Adeptus Arts does not use Adeptus Energy, and that Adeptus Art is not Manipulation of Adeptus Energy), mainly due to the amount of evidence /declarations (even Xiao Story Quest has more than one statement), and the fact that I does not use speculation, but rather things mentioned in the story itself.

So my point about Qiqi's abilities stands, and the Permission Sigil is an Adeptus Art because it is an ability created by an Adeptus (Zhongli) and used by them, and not because it is imbued with Adeptus Energy.
If you think that the Permission Sigil is not an Adeptus Arts, it would be even easier for me, since I wouldn't need to prove anything, since the Sigils wouldn't even be Adeptus Arts to begin with, so there would be no need to mention them, already which would just be Talismans imbued with Adeptus Energy.

And the correlation between Adeptus Energy and "Subspace Creation Energy" is completely meaningless, and in addition to not having a single proof of this correlation, there is also the fact that this "Subspace Creation Energy" is only mentioned and used in Subspace , so there is no proof that you could use it for anything else, and the correlation doesn't make sense, in addition to having no proof, they are different energies used for different things, and as if that weren't enough, there is also the fact that Subspace Energy Creation being used to create Subspace is just a theory, as it is said that Subspace is created with the "power of the mind" (imagination), and Tubby says you have to imagine the item to become something (like imagining a chair).

It can also be said that: Subspace Creation Energy = "Power of the mind" (imagination) which is said to be used in the creation of Subspace = Making items form using thought.
Or maybe Subspace Energy Creation is just an energy that exists around items created in Subspace, since that's all it says about that energy, and so that energy wouldn't actually even be used in the creation of Subsoace or its items, but rather just the "power of the mind" (imagination/thought).

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

While it is a long read and don't understand everything; but the basics is that characters do use energy to create pocket worlds and they use energy for elemental attacks and what not. Worst case scenario is it being Non-Physical as an energy system as opposed to Universal. But technically, if characters still consistently trade blows with with elemental energy attacks, then it can still scale to durability even if the energy system isn't 100% universal. And likewise, if characters still trade blows with physical attacks, it can still scale to striking strength in turn.

Characters like traveller who is comparable to vision wielders have trouble breaking some ordinary ass wooden cages all the time. It's not an outlinear Btw, since this shit happened at least four times and twice in the newest region, aka fontaine aether who should be above his previous selves.

 

[Giannysmag]

Characters like traveller who is comparable to vision wielders have trouble breaking some ordinary ass wooden cages all the time. It's not an outlinear Btw, since this shit happened at least four times and twice in the newest region, aka fontaine aether who should be above his previous selves.

Welp time to downgrade everyone to 9-C

 

[GarrixianXD]

Characters like traveller who is comparable to vision wielders have trouble breaking some ordinary ass wooden cages all the time. It's not an outlinear Btw, since this shit happened at least four times and twice in the newest region, aka fontaine aether who should be above his previous selves.

I got nothing to say but that’s just completely false.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@DarkDragonMedeus are you still agreeing on this despite many of the peoples has opposed with it alongside Qawsed which is more knowledgeable here?

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I got nothing to say but that’s just completely false.

Sure you don't.

Welp time to downgrade everyone to 9-C

lel. Come to my dm and i will show you some stuff in genshin.

 

[Naito-desu]

Characters like traveller who is comparable to vision wielders have trouble breaking some ordinary ass wooden cages all the time. It's not an outlinear Btw, since this shit happened at least four times and twice in the newest region, aka fontaine aether who should be above his previous selves.

Tbf this shit happens a lot more in video games given characters suffer all kinds of drawbacks for either PiS or gameplay reasons and has been repeatedly disregarded for some rather absurd ratings. Unless it's definitively proven, I'm not a fan of this direction either given it feels very much fueled out of dislike for the verse rather than a legitimate consideration of all feats.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Tbf this shit happens a lot more in video games given characters suffer all kinds of drawbacks for either PiS or gameplay reasons and has been repeatedly disregarded for some rather absurd ratings. Unless it's definitively proven, I'm not a fan of this direction either given it feels very much fueled out of dislike for the verse rather than a legitimate consideration of all feats.

I find it odd that people here resort to accusing people who disagree with their highest end interpretations of their verse as "haters"/"Dislikers" and this wiki's policy of disregarding the anti feats and only taking the highest end feats. FYI i am a player of the game and currently at AR 58 and have done most of the side quests and own several five star characters, including characters i do not use in fights and simply pulled because i liked the character. Anyway, i don't really care what ratings you give the characters. I will be on my way now.

 

[Naito-desu]

I find it odd that people here resort to accusing people who disagree with their highest end interpretations of their verse as "haters"/"Dislikers". FYI i am a player of the game and currently at AR 58 and have done most of the side quests and own several five star characters, including characters i do not use in fights and simply pulled because i liked the character.

I'm not saying you are, I am saying it feels like it. Regardless of how you feel about the game, I think that coming to a conclusion based on these instances requires some deliberate ignorance of other feats demonstrated in the game, and based on observation of how similar instances are treated on this site, these should take precedence in my opinion over things that can easily be explained away as PiS or gameplay reasons.

In case you might have forgotten, I was the one greatly responsible for downgrading Vision Users from Tier 7 to High 8-C/8-B. I do not support the highest end interpretations either, I just think going to the extent of factoring in probably the worst offenders of RPG tropes as valid feats as pushing it.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

I'm not saying you are, I am saying it feels like it. Regardless of how you feel about the game, I think that coming to a conclusion based on these instances requires some deliberate ignorance of other feats demonstrated in the game, and based on observation of how similar instances are treated on this site, these should take precedence in my opinion over things that can easily be explained away as PiS or gameplay reasons.

In case you might have forgotten, I was the one greatly responsible for downgrading Vision Users from Tier 7 to High 8-C/8-B. I do not support the highest end interpretations either, I just think going to the extent of factoring in probably the worst offenders of RPG tropes as valid feats as pushing it.

ah, my apologies then. I would like to point out that i was not going for tier 9 traveller either, was just pointing out how bad the anti feats can end up getting.

 

[Naito-desu]

No problem, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Sure you don't.

That's purely game mechanics and Genshin wouldn't even be Tier 6 if that was the case.