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Yeah, I’ve been decently vocal about it. Also, Wally West should straight up be 1-A alongside Superman. These two are really broken.
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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So is Lucifer Morningstar greater than the Overvoid now?
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By standard and tier, yes. However, it's important to note that a Cosmology split is the reason why. In a more holistic view, it wouldn't be the case.
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As promised earlier for Dream of the Endless having Nigh-Omniscience and Nigh-Omnipresence/Omnipresence.
Could see everyone, could be anyone, could do what anyone could, and knows everyone. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #15)
Exists in all reincarnation of Creation holding knowledgable of Creation that no longer exists. As a “cat” they can see all futures, every echo of the past and eons from now. (The Sandman Vol.2 #18)
He also knows what goes on with Lucien and his library which holds all stories untold even without being in the Dreaming or Creation. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #5)
Can read all events and stories of the Light and Dark Multiverse. Also, can tell of the story of Creation and the creation of the worlds in the Orrery. (Dark Nights: Metal Vol.1 #4)
Can detect an anomaly across Creation feeling it through the dreams he embodies. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #1)
Present in the dreams of stars and planets and knows of them all. Given there's a literal City of Stars with all the stars in Creation then obviously his knowledge extends to all things that dream and everything literally dreams. (The Sandman: Endless Night Vol.1 #1)
Exist in the Urs-God mythos beyond flesh and space. Outside of time and was present there since they gained self-awareness of the beginning. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #10)
Present in the Silver City. (Lucifer Vol.1 #50)
Present in the City of Stars as all doors way in Creation is dreams meaning he is present in all reality because Dream defines Reality as the Endless represent both their concept and opposite. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #4 & #6)
Was present in Lucifer’s Creation. (Lucifer Vol.1 #24)
Was present in Elaine Belloc’s Creation and contained things outside her influence and much older than any gods. (Lucifer Vol.1 #73)
Was present in Lucifer’s Creation before the creation of the physical worlds. (Lucifer Vol.1 #15)
Endless function touching every planet, spaces, and plane of existence. (The Sandman Vol.2 #48)
Numerous aspects of Dream touches all aspects of time and spaces and every part of Creation has dreams thus Dream is always present in Creation. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #2)
Nigh-Omniscience:
Dream can look upon any creature since all creatures and sentient beings dream. He can see and feel all their dreams, hopes, and feeling. Not only that he is the only being to understand and know all dreams as the King of Dreams able to tell if anything is real or unreal and when they are to come and go. (The Sandman: The Dream Hunters Vol.1 #4)Could see everyone, could be anyone, could do what anyone could, and knows everyone. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #15)
Exists in all reincarnation of Creation holding knowledgable of Creation that no longer exists. As a “cat” they can see all futures, every echo of the past and eons from now. (The Sandman Vol.2 #18)
He also knows what goes on with Lucien and his library which holds all stories untold even without being in the Dreaming or Creation. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #5)
Can read all events and stories of the Light and Dark Multiverse. Also, can tell of the story of Creation and the creation of the worlds in the Orrery. (Dark Nights: Metal Vol.1 #4)
Can detect an anomaly across Creation feeling it through the dreams he embodies. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #1)
Present in the dreams of stars and planets and knows of them all. Given there's a literal City of Stars with all the stars in Creation then obviously his knowledge extends to all things that dream and everything literally dreams. (The Sandman: Endless Night Vol.1 #1)
Nigh-Omnipresence/Omnipresence:
Total Omnipresence in the Dreaming. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #3)Exist in the Urs-God mythos beyond flesh and space. Outside of time and was present there since they gained self-awareness of the beginning. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #10)
Present in the Silver City. (Lucifer Vol.1 #50)
Present in the City of Stars as all doors way in Creation is dreams meaning he is present in all reality because Dream defines Reality as the Endless represent both their concept and opposite. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #4 & #6)
Was present in Lucifer’s Creation. (Lucifer Vol.1 #24)
Was present in Elaine Belloc’s Creation and contained things outside her influence and much older than any gods. (Lucifer Vol.1 #73)
Was present in Lucifer’s Creation before the creation of the physical worlds. (Lucifer Vol.1 #15)
Endless function touching every planet, spaces, and plane of existence. (The Sandman Vol.2 #48)
Numerous aspects of Dream touches all aspects of time and spaces and every part of Creation has dreams thus Dream is always present in Creation. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #2)
Hasty12345
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I remember seeing someone say that retconn corps can’t retcon superman, would that give Superman resistance to plot hax?
Hasty12345
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Why would being above the source wall be 1-A?
I’m not seeing anything 1-A in those scans as far as R>F goes?
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They really can’t. So yeah, plot hax for Superman isn’t a far stretch.
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Being above the Source Wall itself isn’t 1-A. However, outside of the Multiverse is the Overvoid/Source/Time which means if they exist on that same level they are 1-A. Darkseid Universe was also outside time and space which is a minimum of Low 1-A.
Hasty12345
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Seems blatant enough then.
To be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to 1-A Superman, but IMO it has to be airtight with feats and not just "scales to a guy who scales to a guy who scales to a guy who has this 1-A feat due to some undisclosed amp that was totally ambiguous".
Given the whole irreducible aspect of 1-A, Superman having an unamped feat would likely be an anti-feat for the realm being 1-A (unless some "intrinsic aspect" of Superman is itself 1-A; which would require more than a one off ambiguous statement), Superman scaling to low 1-A with the necessary feats is far more reasonable.
Or such an amped key would need a minimum of 6 appearances (iirc)
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Comics do not tend to follow an established rule that we could convey here in the wiki as “reasonable and consistent.” Though, the consistency part is really not a matter of question given the countless time Superman just straight up have some sort of broken scaling or a good fusion of chain-scaling. He’s been in the Void several times, due to being the archetype of Hope itself he couldn’t die on several occasion, been in realms that are 1-A is nature on several occasions.
There’s no discrepancy to me that Superman is all over the place with scaling, and looking at his feats as a whole I think 1-A is very sufficient. I’ll probably do a CRT on him and Wally in the future for 1-A. The only problem with that is 1-A is of course the notion that they’re somewhat seen in lower realm freely interacting with lesser dimensional being and being confine to dimensionality which is quantitative, but looking it like that would also just downscale a lot of characters from a lot of verses. After all, they’re trying to tell a story rather than just “power scale” story to show how OP Superman is(which they do, but, not in the sense that it’s purely made for power scaling community). We just work with what we got and personally it should be enough, but there are some anti-feats where a loophole is hard.
Though, pretty much the comic verse as a whole always have the this notion. Like Perpetua is 1-A despite freely interacting with humans which goes for the Endless, Angels, New Gods, and whatnot. Even Marvel shares this several time as we’ve seen their profile be High 1-A despite interacting with humans without conforming to lesser shape. At best, we just assume they all allow the people to interact with them which is the only loophole I see for this part of the equation. We can’t free ball everything, but, we can’t be all together super strict or else a lot of these characters would lose their rating because this element is pretty common across fiction.
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Time trapper Doomsday should get new key
Hasty12345
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These terms are contextual. Obviously, No one expects Superman to destroy universes every chapter. I do think In some instances (not all), we are too strict on Comic book characters.
Rant
Personally, I think Superman at his peak in PC era and now Rebirth (given they're basically the same person) is in a great spot at 2-C. My only gripes with the current Superman profiles (with the exception of Rebirth Superman's profile being largely unreadable with outdated formatting) is the need for "holding back" AP descriptions. Look at other verses like Dragonball, Goku isn't indexed as being "bullet level up to Solar System level at peak" at the start of DBS because when he was holding back that one time he got hurt by bullets.
I understand that we scale people to a holding back Superman, however, in an ideal world, that scaling is outlined in a blog and not on Superman's page where we recognize he's actually 2-C. (this goes for Marvel as well, Thor's page in particular is aesthetically horrible , especially in the tier and AP sections).
I understand that we scale people to a holding back Superman, however, in an ideal world, that scaling is outlined in a blog and not on Superman's page where we recognize he's actually 2-C. (this goes for Marvel as well, Thor's page in particular is aesthetically horrible , especially in the tier and AP sections).
When you say "1-A" are you referring to currently accepted cosmology?
And I don't think Superman existing in a non-1-A realm is inherently an antifeat if you could prove there exists an "inner life essence" (referring to Thor's profile justification) that exists on a higher plane. I've seen some wiki's create a page for the "Story of Superman" and scale it independently of Superman, but also list Superman as that tier "when using the Story of Superman"". If the Story of Superman is a "tangible force" that Superman can utlilise and that force is "1-A", then it would allow you to give Superman a 1-A key. Again, if there exist enough legit feats and blah blah blah.
I don't know a lot about Vertigo, but if The Endless are omnipresent, I think they're technically except from having anti-feats via virtue of visiting lower planes, because they exist as an omnipresent abstraction that already exist there and in the higher realms etc.
Superman and Wally are a bit different.
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Well, Prime Earth was often treated as the structural foundation for the Multiverse. It being gone would bring about a collapsing singularity that drags the entirety of the Orrery down. So there’s that and obviously in Justice League by Snyder and Tynion it was notion that Earth-0 is quite a visage of importance when it comes to the foundational existence of the Multiverse.
There are other example, but they’re not very notable, at least not at large. Every little detail helps in this case to prove it and I suppose I can look into those. Though, the story of Superman is an interesting concept since it’s a fundamental part of the narrative of Superman to essentially come back in the end to “win” and in recent comics he was the embodiment of Hope as oppose to Darkseid being the complete opposite as primal force that Life fight against. Specifically, in the recent story about Life pushing all things in unison to expand and emerge from the Dark and the main focal point being Superman and also beating Doomsday after destroying Hell’s door to escape is interesting.
On their own that may not be enough, but there are ways around it that I think I could conjure up reasonings for.
Wally is interesting due to the Speedforce being 1-A so his case is rather more obvious than Superman. Though, Wally importance to the Cosmology can’t be denied, he’s no Superman whom pretty much is the embodiment of a necessity for balance in the Multiverse. Though, honestly, it will be a difficult challenge to make something off of all that for 1-A, but it’s still possible and probable. It will certainly be a difficult task based on what’s accepted as consistent and not some sort of outlier, but, I’ll be damned if I didn’t try.
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Hasty12345
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These are very interesting, however, I'm not sure it's quite the same idea that's required for 1-A, as it would also seem to serve as a justification for anyone in the prime universe to be 1-A given they have the feats.
I've heard and read a few instances of Superman, Batman and sometimes Wonder Woman all having that meta-contextual importance to the DC narrative that was canonized in the weird way it has been. Not sure how that fits into tiering if I'm being honest.
This is interesting. If (under this framework) DS is 1-A, I can see how "Hope" could be a 1-A concept (might be an avenue to look in to?) Superman can embody to grant him that "inner life force" aspect that allows him to have 1-A feats.
IF the speedforce is 1-A, then Wally would have an excuse to be 1-A given the right feats given he's empowered by a 1-A source. Superman isn't as lucky as to have something that blatant it seems.
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Well, I’m fixing both Marvel and DC Cosmology kink so I’ll deal with them and for the most part I do see them as huge outlier particularly Thor revision since it needs to be changed due to another thread downgrading Marvel as a whole.Honestly, I think that either a 1-A Superman or a High 1-A inner essence regular Thor should be treated as massive outliers/extreme inconsistencies.
I think there can be arguments made for Superman. I’ll look into it and if it’s far too controversial then we could drop the 1-A rating for him, but, an upgrade is in my opinion still important since 2-C at peak is way too low if you ask me.
Hasty12345
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I know even less about Thor than I do Superman, so I won't comment on that.Honestly, I think that either a 1-A Superman or a High 1-A inner essence regular Thor should be treated as massive outliers/extreme inconsistencies.
But, I know Superman has weird cosmological importance, and his 1-A feats are less feats for "Superman" and more so feats for "The idea that Superman will save the day", so IF enough of those feats exist, I do like the idea of maybe having a page or an acknowledgement (maybe on the DC Cosmology page) that this concept exists and explaisn why Superman HAS those feats to ebgin with, even if we don't scale Superman (the character) to that esoteric concept for the reasons you mention.
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I mean they don't actually mean much unless their importance is tied to a sort of conceptual transcendence, but, I wouldn't overlook it and it probably would be the basis for an argument for 1-A. I think it purely comes down to the concept of reaching across all time, space, dimensions, and realms with the Multiverse operating on some basis to the importance of Superman. It sounds like an outlier, but, it's not that dubious by any means, and I believe I could make a sound argument for it.
Plus, DC does fancy a lot of reality and fiction relations, but, most of those cases aren't by our standard. Harley Quinn's stories are one good example of R>F being used rather greatly by our standard.
Well, Superman has always been the embodiment of Hope. They just make it more evident and put it on a grander scale with more recent stories. A “God of Hope” seems to be shortly coming, but then again he's always had the god-like power status without the god-complex.
Though, Hope itself isn’t 1-A, technically speaking since everything requires contexts. Though, that would be pretty funny that Superman by this logic is some sort of avatar for Despair of the Endless.
Superman isn't as blatant, but, then again he’s no regular Superhero. I don't think it extends that greatly to Wonder Woman and Batman, but these recent stories kind of puts a spin that the Trinity is as important to each other.
However, I’ll focus on Superman. Which isn't going to be fun since that's a lot of stories to read.
Hasty12345
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Either way, any 1-A upgrade for any Superhero would require EXTNSIVE cosmology revisions, especially when you read this:
DC Comics Cosmology
This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...
vsbattles.fandom.com
With Infinite Frontier making everything even more confusing, might even be worth making an IF cosmology, given the multiverse was recreated iirc (I forgot if it was just the universes of the whole multiverse (5th, 6th Dimensions etc)).
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I keep forgetting if they're limiting the Crisis Cosmology portion to only a few authors because I know of plenty of scans to upgrade everything up until the Source Wall.
Hasty12345
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How would we determine what feats go to what cosmology for the smaller authors?
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Well, I've been fixing the Cosmology pages for a while now. So, I've reread some elements to see if they connect such as using the “worlds within worlds” statement as applying to the worlds of the Orrery being in a hierarchy of sorts or that the Sphere of the Gods lacks/transcends time and space as a whole, etc….
It’s sometimes easy to denote what works and wheres the placement of things in the Cosmology. I've been good at sorting that out, but, stories from authors that aren't the big ones typically only expand on the main story and usually they don't make an entire new concept too different from what the bigger author's intended. So if those authors say Superman is unrestricted by dimensions and the flow of time then that's not exactly an outlier in my books if nothing else disproves it with other authors.
Regardless, it should just come intuitively to people on what can and cannot work. If there's ever a disagreement then anyone can voice it whether through questions or CRT forum or even the discussion in this forum.
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Hasty12345
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Makes sense I guess
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Looks good, intelligence can be changed based on this thread as you already agreed. but don't we need a crt for speed rating as it's a tier 1 character?
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Herald tier characters in general should be placed only in 2C - 2A lvl unless they have massive boost to their power in the storylines.Honestly, I think that either a 1-A Superman or a High 1-A inner essence regular Thor should be treated as massive outliers/extreme inconsistencies.
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In the case, an exception can be made. The thread that removed it primarily focuses on the notion that the profile lacked justification. So, obviously, there's no need for an extra step just to add that back.
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Well i don't mind this way either, If others agree with this.
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Yes, at the very most.
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Not really. If the Multiverse itself has a structure much of a certain tier and the character scale to it then obviously they need a upgrade that merits their power level. That's how it works they scale base on their feats being consistently on those level and Superman should be much higher than 2-C.Yes, at the very most.
So it’s more so at the very least they should be those tiers. Superman is regularly Multiversal by scale and he gets more and more ridiculous like Thor and Hulk. If we're objectifying “herald tiers” as just that because there's no logical sense to get them higher then we're ignoring the comics that go against this notion.
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Hmm. I personally think that it seems too inconsistent to scale them from the most powerful characters that they have ever fought in any case, given the nonsensically extremely inconsistent plot conventions in this area for their respective verses. It seems far more reliable to at least scale them from their own feats instead.
Hasty12345
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I do think sticking with the decades old notion of “herald tier” characters is asking to be purposefully inaccurate with our scaling. DC and Marvel as much as it gets annoying sometimes is pushing to have some characters be stronger than ever before and do consistently give them higher tier feats.
I think there should be more of an emphasis on scaling individual characters based on their own feats than “everybody fights everybody” scaling comics love to do.
I think there should be more of an emphasis on scaling individual characters based on their own feats than “everybody fights everybody” scaling comics love to do.
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We can scale them based on feat, yes, I literally mentioned that's the best way to go. How you said that kind of sounds like you're objectifying a certain class to only be around those tiers because it apparently “makes more sense.” If they have feats to land them as Low 1-A then they get that, there's no “it doesn't make sense,” “it seems like an outlier,” or “it doesn't seem consistent.”
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We gotta fix the Crisis Cosmology portion of the thread as well. The gaps are too large to between things in the Multiverse and what lies beyond the Source Wall. There's simply no way some of the Sphere residents are only 1-B yet Perpetua is 1-A which makes no sense how she has a 1-B key yet is likely 1-A.
I know there's example like Cestis being 9-B and having a High 1-A key, but with her case shows that's she's more likely human than cosmic in her physical form. Perpetua is not that limited to having that large of a gap in keys.
I know there's example like Cestis being 9-B and having a High 1-A key, but with her case shows that's she's more likely human than cosmic in her physical form. Perpetua is not that limited to having that large of a gap in keys.
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I agree with this.
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1B ratings should be removed for perpetua imo. Crisis cosmology needs to be revamped . Sphere of gods is transcendental realm beyond the Multiverse / Omniverse . Darkseid should be low 1A even if he still confined within the source wall
Hasty12345
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What's the context of this and how does it prove L1-A?
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But not beyond the Omniverse. The Omniverse actually encompasses the Sphere of the Gods. What is stopping us from upgrading Creation to Low 1-A or 1-A is the Divine Continuum which represents the entirety of space and time. Even Ultima_Reality said this when I asked him about it.
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