Garou vs Cinder (OPM vs RWBY)

[Maitreya12]

Of note, Cinder can also create barriers with her magic which isnt fueled by her Aura (ie. taking her aura down doesnt remove her ability to use magic), and she can regenerate damage to her Grimm arm and even fully regrow it in a few seconds if it gets cut off

This true though I wonder how durable those shields are and to what capacity she has demonstrated using them since I don’t recall Cinder using them.

Refer to the post above. He does not hold a significant if any skill advantage here. RWBY is insanely skilled for how much it gets dunked on as a verse.

I believe I responded to why the skill feats you mentioned do not measure up towards Garou’s. There’s some legitimately good skill feats in RWBY like Mercury figuring out Pyrrha’s semblance, but when put in comparison to Garou, he far exceeds.

Debatable, Cinder has a few attacks that ignore durability and her heat attacks would screw Garou over big time as he doesnt resist heat in this key

Pretty sure the attacks that ignore durability are from close range which would not bode well for Cinder since Garou can repel and reflect her attacks at close range and her heart attacks can be dodged and easily countered with Garou’s reactive evolution. Genos had a wide variety of heat attacks but Garou was able to dodge and maneuver through him even when heavily damaged.

Also debatable, specifically because Cinder has the ability to freely control her projectiles and their trajectory even if they are broken

That also wouldn’t really be helping her in this fight since Garou is so proficient he can deflect all the bullets from a machine gun just fine.

While the stamina argument is fair, as of volume 5 Aura breaks are no longer an instant loss for the cast, and almost every character who has gotten their aura broken has shown th ability to continue fighting after their aura is broken

It’s….essentially a game over for when that happens to most RWBY characters. For example when Weiss had her aura broken against Cinder and she picked up Blake’s weapon to fight against her, Cinder knocked her down with a single elbow.

Does he even have the capacity to do that in this key?

Yeah he does, that’s how he went from regular silver haired Garou to blood hair red eye Garou.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Pressure Points likely wouldnt even work due to Cinder's Aura (Passive full body forcefield)

Fair ig

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For examples for each of what I’m referring to. Being skilled in her use of Aura isn’t really applicable to her being more skilled than Garou since aura is an in universe thing that can be taught and learned and practice just like Cinder was for many years. It’s like saying you’re skilled in haki from one piece or ki from dragon ball. It’s not really applicable to skill sets agaubsy

I mean it kinda is, all of those things you listed including Aura require the users to go through intense combat training, its not just about them being able to manifest it that makes it a feat of combat skill, its the fact that they are skilled enough to apply it in combat without needing to focus on using it, its so ingrained in their fighting styles that its second nature to them and what makes users of those abilities the most skilled in their respective universes.

Velvet being able to copy others is in no way indicative of hers or Garou’s actual skill set being comparable since Velvet has a specific ability that allows this to happen for her while Garou is copying things via sheer skill alone which is far more impressive and of course masterful. This also doesn’t apply to Cinder since she doesn’t have Velvet’s skill set.

Its not so much Velvet, rather that there are characters who are outright acknowledged as being significantly more skilled than her despite her capacity to perfectly utilize dozens of fighting styles at once, with Cinder being absurdly more skilled than them. Also, for reference, this was already brought up multiple times and was agreed to be a feat of skill.

Garou has also been shown to be able to predict the exact movements characters would preform and hyper focus on them so he can use the most optimal method of attack. His analytical prediction is off the charts and far exceeds what’s shown in RWBY.

Neo has shown the skill to bypass people with passive precognition and Cinder is equal to her in skill.

There’s also his direct martial arts skills which can take your power and return it back two fold.

Youve literally described Yang's semblance.

Even when he’s unable to see, he can dodge ricochet shots from the dark with a leg wound and minimal movement.

Thats actually something that most high-level Aura users can do, to the point that people like Adam, Maria, and Fox are able to fight completely blind using only their aura

First Ace Ops were emotionally hung up during their fight with RWBY which I believe was even pointed out.

On the contrary, it was directly pointed out that they were going all out, Elm was even fighting with the intent to kill them.

And second was that Cinder never beat Winter and Penny together. She stalemated Winter, there was no real victor in that fight, and the only reason she beat Penny so handily was because she just got turned into a human and lacked her previous robotic senses. Penny prior was able to beat Cinder just fine. And Penny’s not too terrifically skilled either even with Winter powers since she was clearly overwhelmed by having to fight multiple Ace Ops at once whereas Garou fighting multiple opponents is almost a regular to him.

This true though I wonder how durable those shields are and to what capacity she has demonstrated using them since I don’t recall Cinder using them.

Theyre on the same level as the rest of her magic, and have taken hits from Raven's maiden powers

Pretty sure the attacks that ignore durability are from close range which would not bode well for Cinder since Garou can repel and reflect her attacks at close range and her heart attacks can be dodged and easily countered with Garou’s reactive evolution. Genos had a wide variety of heat attacks but Garou was able to dodge and maneuver through him even when heavily damaged.

Cinder's dura neg is internal heat manip via her arrows, she doesnt need to be close to use it. Basically if he gets hit with one arrow he gets flash-incinerated from the inside out.

Funnily enough if this were Raven Garou would be royally screwed as her dura neg doesnt even have a projectile to reflect lol

That also wouldn’t really be helping her in this fight since Garou is so proficient he can deflect all the bullets from a machine gun just fine.

Death Gattling doesnt control the trajectory of his bullets though, he just uses a ton of them. Cinder can freely control the path her arrows take and can reconstruct them mid-air if they are broken ie. If Garou tries to deflect it, she can make the arrow break into pieces, continue its trajctory around his fist, and reform behind his fist and continue its path into him.

It’s….essentially a game over for when that happens to most RWBY characters. For example when Weiss had her aura broken against Cinder and she picked up Blake’s weapon to fight against her, Cinder knocked her down with a single elbow.

Not after Volume 5 its not, Adam vs Yang and Blake, Weiss vs Vernal, Clover vs Qrow, Winter vs Ironwood, etc. Aura breaks stopped being an instant loss after the second timeskip.

Also, for clarification, Cinder did that to Weiss because in that fight Weiss was 8-A while Cinder was Low 7-B.

Yeah he does, that’s how he went from regular silver haired Garou to blood hair red eye Garou.

He got stronger from scratching his head too hard, got it.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I was originally gonna use Winter for the record

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I was originally gonna use Winter for the record

Good thing you chose Cinder.

That's a way better matchup imo.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I was originally gonna use Winter for the record

Cinder is more fitting tbh

Make winter vs satsuki first

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Make winter vs satsuki first

I'm gonna be following that thread, btw.

 

[azontr]

Dear God an actually civilized OPM debate. No goonery!

W match.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Dear God an actually civilized OPM debate. No goonery!

W match.

Crazy that a matchup between a OPM and RWBY character would be civil...

 

[Livinmeme]

Skill scaling was a mistake

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dear God an actually civilized OPM debate. No goonery!

W match.

why would you jinx it like that

 

[azontr]

why would you jinx it like that

Because I want to see chaos

 

[Maitreya12]

I mean it kinda is, all of those things you listed including Aura require the users to go through intense combat training, its not just about them being able to manifest it that makes it a feat of combat skill, its the fact that they are skilled enough to apply it in combat without needing to focus on using it, its so ingrained in their fighting styles that its second nature to them and what makes users of those abilities the most skilled in their respective universes.

No, I mean it’s a skill feat for them. It’s just not an applicable skill feat to say against Garou since Garou doesn’t have aura which is their own unique ability. It’d be kind of like me saying how Garou also went through intense training to learn his martial arts there in by he’s more skilled than Cinder.

Its not so much Velvet, rather that there are characters who are outright acknowledged as being significantly more skilled than her despite her capacity to perfectly utilize dozens of fighting styles at once, with Cinder being absurdly more skilled than them. Also, for reference, this was already brought up multiple times and was agreed to be a feat of skill.

Well going from your post the only character who did that to Velvet was a character that doesn’t scale to Cinder in skill unless I’m mistaken so I don’t know where you’re getting Cinder’s absurdly more skilled. Also where are you getting agreed on that Velvet’s copying abilities are skill based since in here at least that hasn’t been agreed on by a majority of users that have commented on it?

Neo has shown the skill to bypass people with passive precognition and Cinder is equal to her in skill.

What do you mean bypass? And do you mean Maria since the only time she ever caught her off guard was when she slammed a ship into her robot (which wouldn’t fall under her “preflexes semblance so she didn’t bypass it there either) and during the fight itself, Neo was out skilled by Maria if I’m recalling correctly.

Youve literally described Yang's semblance.

Ok….and? Has Yang ever directly used her semblance on Cinder? And unlike Yang's semblance, Garou doesn’t need to take any damage to dish it back out two fold.

Thats actually something that most high-level Aura users can do, to the point that people like Adam, Maria, and Fox are able to fight completely blind using only their aura

The issue is that these skill feats don’t scale to Cinder at all. Of the 3 examples you gave, 2 of them were Faunus who are specifically noted to have better senses than regular humans, and 2 of them had semblances specifically aiding them in that ability. Fox had both.

Simply put, just because A character from RWBY can preform a comparably similar skill feat, doesn’t mean Cinder can.

On the contrary, it was directly pointed out that they were going all out, Elm was even fighting with the intent to kill them.

No it was specifically mentioned in universe that the reason they lost against RWBY was due to their emotions. Even if going all out they can still be sloppier and messier due to their jumbled up emotions. Their skill level can decrease.

Oh man I actually forgot about that lol. But I think this kind of aides in my point since Cinder here was fighting against non maidens while she was a maiden but when she fought Penny individually she lost and stalemated against Winter when she got maiden powers. So that seems like she has a power gap their.

Theyre on the same level as the rest of her magic, and have taken hits from Raven's maiden powers

I’m trying to remember what you’re referring to actually. Even against Raven when she out of aura she got hit from behind (even when given a warning from Raven lol) before she could activate that barrier.

Cinder's dura neg is internal heat manip via her arrows, she doesnt need to be close to use it. Basically if he gets hit with one arrow he gets flash-incinerated from the inside out.

I…also don’t know what you’re referring to there as even when Pyrrha was hit she was still alive before Cinder killed her and even looking on Cinder’s vs battle profile shows she has no form of durability negation listed there as well as the fact that it’s very easy for Garou to deflect arrows too.

Funnily enough if this were Raven Garou would be royally screwed as her dura neg doesnt even have a projectile to reflect lol

Yeah pretty sure she can freeze people from a distance. Though if this was red Garou then he’d have quite the lead from his AP and speed and such.

Death Gattling doesnt control the trajectory of his bullets though, he just uses a ton of them. Cinder can freely control the path her arrows take and can reconstruct them mid-air if they are broken ie. If Garou tries to deflect it, she can make the arrow break into pieces, continue its trajctory around his fist, and reform behind his fist and continue its path into him.

Him deflecting all the bullets is simply to demonstrate how easily and capable he is at deflecting things. He did something similar against golden ball too. Cinder can reform and send her arrows and Garou can just deflect them all over again. At what point are there too many pieces of arrows for Cinder to control.

Not after Volume 5 its not, Adam vs Yang and Blake, Weiss vs Vernal, Clover vs Qrow, Winter vs Ironwood, etc. Aura breaks stopped being an instant loss after the second timeskip.

Ok a lot of the things you mentioned aren’t really showing what you’re describing. Adam vs Yang and Blake ended with Yang using her semblance to overpower Adam and then he simply tried to reach for a knife before immediately getting stabbed and killed on the spot. Pretty sure when Weiss lost her aura against Vernal she also immediately fell to the ground and then was stabbed shortly after. Winter vs Ironwood was literally an instant loss for Winter the moment her aura was gone and was only saved from an immediate magic boost. Of course they can still try and put up a fight without aura, but you’re essentially done from the fight once your aura is gone as is depicted time and time again in the series even post time skip.

Also, for clarification, Cinder did that to Weiss because in that fight Weiss was 8-A while Cinder was Low 7-B.

Yeah this was kind of my point up above when Cinder was fighting Penny and Winter since they didn’t have maiden powers while she did and once they did get maiden powers, Cinder could no longer dominate them. Also even in the instances you mention such as Winter vs Ironwood, had Winter not gotten the power boost then she would’ve been done the moment her aura was gone.

He got stronger from scratching his head too hard, got it.

Exactly.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Skill scaling was a mistake

Vs Debate was a mistake

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Alright, I know it's kinda the norm for people (including me) to troll in Garou matchups, but lets tone it down a bit.

 

[LordGinSama]

When has Neo ever bypassed passive precognition? I also don't think you can compare any martial arts in RWBY to irl martial arts just based on the looks alone.


Edit: Maria doesn't have Precognition, she has Analytical Prediction. And Garou's Analytical is likely much better due to being able to predict FTE shit and having the benefit of seeing 6 steps ahead.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Away from my computer, will respond in a few minutes

 

[azontr]

Leaning towards incon with a slight favor towards Garou. Seeing how the debate progresses before I make a concrete vote, since the skill debate hasn't been settled.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Eh, I'll vote Incon for now.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Alright, back, lets see...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

When has Neo ever bypassed passive precognition? I also don't think you can compare any martial arts in RWBY to irl martial arts just based on the looks alone.


Edit: Maria doesn't have Precognition, she has Analytical Prediction. And Garou's Analytical is likely much better due to being able to predict FTE shit and having the benefit of seeing 6 steps ahead.

The guidebook and WoG give most RWBY fighting styles direct comparisons to irl martial ats in their form and function, just with added RWBY absurdity

Maria's semblance is literally described as a mix of Analyitcal prdiction and precognition

Preflexes

Preflexes, is the Semblance of Maria Calavera. It is first seen in "The Grimm Reaper". Maria's Semblance allows her to sense everything around her better than most people and react to attacks almost before they happen. She can even react to attacks that are outside her field of vision, such as...

rwby.fandom.com

Maria's Semblance allows her to sense everything around her better than most people and react to attacks almost before they happen. She can even react to attacks that are outside her field of vision, such as people shooting her from behind.

In her youth and prime, Maria was able to single-handedly fight and kill a group of mercenaries led by Tock, although she underestimated Tock's skills and ferocity, costing Maria her Silver Eyes. Regardless, her Semblance and weapons saved her life when she was able to sense Tock's position and use her weapon to kill Tock while she was distracted and vulnerable.

 

[LordGinSama]

Maria's semblance is literally described as precognition

Preflexes

Preflexes, is the Semblance of Maria Calavera. It is first seen in "The Grimm Reaper". Maria's Semblance allows her to sense everything around her better than most people and react to attacks almost before they happen. She can even react to attacks that are outside her field of vision, such as...

rwby.fandom.com

Linking a fan made wiki link isn't a form of evidence Weekly. It's never stated to be precognition in any of the RWBY media.

Maria's Semblance allows her to sense everything around her better than most people and react to attacks almost before they happen. She can even react to attacks that are outside her field of vision, such as people shooting her from behind.

All of this is blatantly Analytical Prediction, the fact that the term "sense." is also further evidence of this. Precognition is more akin to seeing into the literal future directly or reading minds, etc. Maria isn't looking into the literal future, nothing temporal is involved nor is she reading the minds of others.

It's more like Naruto Sage Mode Predictions than it is outright precognition like Kenbunshoku Haki.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Linking a fan made wiki link isn't a form of evidence Weekly. It's never stated to be precognition in any of the RWBY media.

All of this is blatantly Analytical Prediction, the fact that the term "sense." is also further evidence of this. Precognition is more akin to seeing into the literal future directly or reading minds, etc. Maria isn't looking into the literal future, nothing temporal is involved nor is she reading the minds of others.

It's more like Naruto Sage Mode Predictions than it is outright precognition like Kenbunshoku Haki.

: T

I mean if your metric for precognition is temporal stuff then thats fair but its still the same thing that Garou has

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah that's just good Analytical Prediction.

How many steps can it read ahead? Iirc Garou's scales to around 6-10 attack and movements before they happen.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah that's just good Analytical Prediction.

How many steps can it read ahead? Iirc Garou's scales to around 6-10 attack and movements before they happen.

Not sure if its ever specified how many steps ahead but it allows her to fight while completely blind

 

[Kachon123]

Heard that a goofy was saying that Cinder > Garou in skill?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Heard that a goofy was saying that Cinder > Garou in skill?

Let the toxicity commence...

 

[Spinoirr]

Because this is hero hunter garou and not half monster garou, wouldn't fire that can melt iron kill him?

 

[Kachon123]

Because this is hero hunter garou and not half monster garou, wouldn't fire that can melt iron kill him?

Not at all. His RE allowed him to gain Heat Resistance hot enough to tank heat that could do the same.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not at all. His RE allowed him to gain Heat Resistance hot enough to tank heat that could do the same.

Technically its not just fire that can melt iron, its fire and heat that can instantly melt iron and steel that is coated in a forcefield capable of withstanding the heat of active lava with no damage

 

[Spinoirr]

Technically its not just fire that can melt iron, its fire and heat that can instantly melt iron and steel that is coated in a forcefield capable of withstanding the heat of active lava with no damage

yeah, but half monster garou has only showed to have gained heat Resistance via adapting. not hero hunter garou when he was still human and not half monster

 

[azontr]

Not at all. His RE allowed him to gain Heat Resistance hot enough to tank heat that could do the same.

That was half monster Garou.

 

[Kachon123]

yeah, but half monster garou has only showed to have gained heat Resistance via adapting. not hero hunter garou when he was still human and not half monster

It was via his RE. He still has it in this key so there's no reason to assume it changed. His RE has been shown to give him resistance to different things like electricity, heat, poison ect.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Leaning towards Cinder

 

[azontr]

It was via his RE. He still has it in this key so there's no reason to assume it changed. His RE has been shown to give him resistance to different things like electricity, heat, poison ect.

Not how it works. Different key, different potency of the ability, so it's not applicable to his hero hunter key.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It was via his RE. He still has it in this key so there's no reason to assume it changed. His RE has been shown to give him resistance to different things like electricity, heat, poison ect.

Problem is Cinder's heat and fire is well above the heat he has shown to be able to resist

Also, that is from a different key, not the key being used here

 

[MrKerf]

The resistance itself isn't applicable, he still can adapt if he can tank it.

 

[Spinoirr]

It was via his RE. He still has it in this key so there's no reason to assume it changed. His RE has been shown to give him resistance to different things like electricity, heat, poison ect.

again, how do we know his human self could even adapt to the heat before it does massive damage to him or kills him. only his half monster self has adapted to heat, not when he is human

 

[azontr]

The resistance itself isn't applicable, he still can adapt if he can tank it.

No, he couldn't, because human Garou has never done that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, I mean it’s a skill feat for them. It’s just not an applicable skill feat to say against Garou since Garou doesn’t have aura which is their own unique ability. It’d be kind of like me saying how Garou also went through intense training to learn his martial arts there in by he’s more skilled than Cinder.

Meh, fair i guess, though theres still the fact that basically every named character in the verse has been trained in combat since childhood and is recognized as being in the top percentile of the best fighters on the planet

Well going from your post the only character who did that to Velvet was a character that doesn’t scale to Cinder in skill unless I’m mistaken so I don’t know where you’re getting Cinder’s absurdly more skilled. Also where are you getting agreed on that Velvet’s copying abilities are skill based since in here at least that hasn’t been agreed on by a majority of users that have commented on it?

She does scale above Nebula yeah, sorry if i didnt clarify that, again, i need to get this stuff in a blog so im not just copy-pasting a college thesis every time im explaining the skill chain lol

Basically, Velvet < Nebula <<<<<< Pyrrha < Mercury < Neo = Cinder

And Pyrrha < Mercury < Ace Ops < Winter/Penny = Cinder

What do you mean bypass? And do you mean Maria since the only time she ever caught her off guard was when she slammed a ship into her robot (which wouldn’t fall under her “preflexes semblance so she didn’t bypass it there either) and during the fight itself, Neo was out skilled by Maria if I’m recalling correctly.

Yeah, Maria's semblance allows her to react to incoming attacks before they happen even if she cant see them as well as sense stuff in the environment better than normal aura users and Neo was able to blindside her

Ok….and? Has Yang ever directly used her semblance on Cinder? And unlike Yang's semblance, Garou doesn’t need to take any damage to dish it back out two fold.

Was more in reference to the same ability existing in RWBY lol

And if he doesnt need to take damage then it would actually be Adam's semblance, not Yang's, though Cinder has seen both semblances in action before yes

The issue is that these skill feats don’t scale to Cinder at all. Of the 3 examples you gave, 2 of them were Faunus who are specifically noted to have better senses than regular humans, and 2 of them had semblances specifically aiding them in that ability. Fox had both.

Eh? Only one of those people is a Faunus, Adam, Fox and Maria are both humans, and of those three only Maria has a semblance that helps her, Adam's semblance is damage absorption and Fox's is telepathy. Of the three, Fox has the least amount of help with it, he is just super good with aura senses.

I’m trying to remember what you’re referring to actually. Even against Raven when she out of aura she got hit from behind (even when given a warning from Raven lol) before she could activate that barrier.

Near the beginning of the fight, when both were clashing with their giant swords they had bubble shields around themselves. Also in both the first fight against Ruby and the fight with Amber they were shown to be able to create barriers in front of themselves independent of their Aura.

I…also don’t know what you’re referring to there as even when Pyrrha was hit she was still alive before Cinder killed her and even looking on Cinder’s vs battle profile shows she has no form of durability negation listed there as well as the fact that it’s very easy for Garou to deflect arrows too.

She was still alive because Cinder wanted to mock her, something she moved beyond doing after the timeskip. And the fact that he can deflect arrows doesnt make much of a difference when Cinder can just make her arrows go around his attempts to deflect them

Him deflecting all the bullets is simply to demonstrate how easily and capable he is at deflecting things. He did something similar against golden ball too. Cinder can reform and send her arrows and Garou can just deflect them all over again.

Oh i know he's good at deflecting attacks but has he ever had to deal with something like Cinder's arrows before, a projectile that can effectively 'dodge' an attempt to intercept it?

At what point are there too many pieces of arrows for Cinder to control.

There really isnt a point like that, she is able to manipulate her arrows even when then are reduced to powder as that is their natural state

Ok a lot of the things you mentioned aren’t really showing what you’re describing. Adam vs Yang and Blake ended with Yang using her semblance to overpower Adam and then he simply tried to reach for a knife before immediately getting stabbed and killed on the spot. Pretty sure when Weiss lost her aura against Vernal she also immediately fell to the ground and then was stabbed shortly after. Of course they can still try and put up a fight without aura, but you’re essentially done from the fight once your aura is gone as is depicted time and time again in the series even post time skip. Winter vs Ironwood was literally an instant loss for Winter the moment her aura was gone and was only saved from an immediate magic boost.

Also even in the instances you mention such as Winter vs Ironwood, had Winter not gotten the power boost then she would’ve been done the moment her aura was gone.

In Adam vs Yang and Blake, all three of them had their auras broken but were still capable of fighting. When weiss had her aura broken by Vernal she was shown still fighting against her in the background several minutes before Cinder stabbed her. In Winter vs Ironwood Winter was still fully capable of fighting she just no longer had Aura. Aura breaks dont lower the stats of the user and theyre not 'done' when their aura is broken, it just removes the defensive barrier around their bodies meaning they can actually be hurt by attacks.

Oh man I actually forgot about that lol. But I think this kind of aides in my point since Cinder here was fighting against non maidens while she was a maiden but when she fought Penny individually she lost and stalemated against Winter when she got maiden powers. So that seems like she has a power gap their.

Yeah this was kind of my point up above when Cinder was fighting Penny and Winter since they didn’t have maiden powers while she did and once they did get maiden powers, Cinder could no longer dominate them.

Except she wasnt using her Maiden powers for 95% of the fight, only when they were up in the air. And yeah, that was my point, she is equal to them in skill