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I'm pretty such someone else made that argument not me, you can take a break and cool down cause right now your clearly mad at me but you took someone else's claim and try to say I said it even though I didn't. I can go back an link it.
Post in thread 'Further Guilty Gear Revisions' https://vsbattles.com/threads/further-guilty-gear-revisions.127469/post-4316762
Look, the main issue is that we should tier the lower guys than Sol and the others, but you are actually doing worse and highballing characters like Bedman. By placing him at Low 1-C you make literally every other character, because the dude fought every single tier, from the Low Tiers (Venom) to the top Tiers (Slayer) with an incredible inconsistent scaling
This without getting in the issue that Sol doesn't scale to the cannon because otherwise Asuka wouldn't use a weaker weapon than his friend
We were waiting for the calc for Justice gamma rays to be accepted, but now that they are, we can proceed to discuss scaling
We are still discussing speed scaling, since many characters show anti-feats for travel speed, and it's dubious wether they scale to the speed of the gamma rays
New information has become available in regards to the god tiers of the verse, though it contains couple of problems (particularly Bedman, as raised by Xantospoc)
Oh yeah, we also had the blackhole feat, but sadly we don't have a way to reliably guess the size of the blackhole to calc, and statements of it scaling to Oratorio are inconsistent with the plot and results in exaggerated and non sensical statistics for Sol and co (which I agree, btw).
Oh yeah, we also had the blackhole feat, but sadly we don't have a way to reliably guess the size of the blackhole to calc, and statements of it scaling to Oratorio are inconsistent with the plot and results in exaggerated and non sensical statistics for Sol and co (which I agree, btw).
Also ant, maybe now its time for calling the staffs for evaluating this, tho @Dragonmasterxyz and @Theglassman12 wouldn't interested so don't tag them here
The biggest problem I see in that feat is that we actually don't see the black hole at all. Or, the event horizon I suppose. Like, the glowing ball obviously isn't the black hole in itself (if it were that would mean light is escaping it, which would be a problem with our standards). It might be the ascension disc or... well it doesn't really matter what the glowing ball is. The problem is that without knowing the event horizon size, the feat is just unquantifiable. Creating a black hole in itself has no lower bound on how much energy it requires.
Neither of these two are actually our standards. Our standards are what is written on the corresponding wiki page. There are similar standards to this (i.e. a singularity destroys anything below High 3-A durability and light may not escape the event horizon), but not quite these.
When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...
We were waiting for the calc for Justice gamma rays to be accepted, but now that they are, we can proceed to discuss scaling
We are still discussing speed scaling, since many characters show anti-feats for travel speed, and it's dubious wether they scale to the speed of the gamma rays
New information has become available in regards to the god tiers of the verse, though it contains couple of problems (particularly Bedman, as raised by Xantospoc)
I sorta had a plan finding the swartschild radius with the whole spontaneous microverse part of it to get around micro size to nanometer for the radius and that's why I said it's 5-A but I don't know the procedures on how the site handles mico sized universes so I didn't bring that up.
, and statements of it scaling to Oratorio are inconsistent with the plot and results in exaggerated and non sensical statistics for Sol and co (which I agree, btw).
I sorta had a plan finding the swartschild radius with the whole spontaneous microverse part of it to get around micro size to nanometer for the radius and that's why I said it's 5-A but I don't know the procedures on how the site handles mico sized universes so I didn't bring that up.
I don't think we have enough information to accurately guess that. But maybe we can talk to some calc group members later on? For now, I would say to just dismiss it. Let's focus on what we already got accepted and all.
We got one member agreed on High 5-A so far, I'm kinda stumped on speed. I know there's still Valentine's boss fight I remember she does fire lasers in the fight but it's probably gonna be a pain to get anything out of it. Same would probably go for ramlethal maybe. But getting into both valentines speeds is honestly gonna be a another can of worms to open up outside of anything finite speed wise.
We were waiting for the calc for Justice gamma rays to be accepted, but now that they are, we can proceed to discuss scaling
We are still discussing speed scaling, since many characters show anti-feats for travel speed, and it's dubious wether they scale to the speed of the gamma rays
New information has become available in regards to the god tiers of the verse, though it contains couple of problems (particularly Bedman, as raised by Xantospoc)
I wish to apologize for yesterday's behavior. Covid vaccine made me act up, and even today I am in a terrible mood.
Between this and my focus on other matter, I change my mind from closing this thread, I will retire off this thread and allow everyone else to work on it.
I wish to apologize for yesterday's behavior. Covid vaccine made me act up, and even today I am in a terrible mood.
Between this and my focus on other matter, I change my mind from closing this thread, I will retire off this thread and allow everyone else to work on it.
For High 5-A scaling:
- Justice herself downscales, as her blast was made with x40 boost. Sol scales directly to her, with a couple more scaling to Sol, while the rest of the cast downscale even further. Ikelaggan and Keeweed can elaborate further on this.
For Speed:
We are still trying to find more consistent feats, as the one that have been brought were debunked (MFTL), are on the air (Scaling to blocking the Gamma Rays) or are plain anti-feats (Sol, Slayer travel feats)
The problem with gamma rays speed scaling as brought by Keeweed is that the characters aren't shown blocking them in time in gameplay. Ikelaggan brought side material that shows some characters capable of rescting and blocking them, but their canonicity has been put into question, because while the side material is featured and promoted by the company, they included a note that says some events were changed. Ikelaggan and Keeweed were in the process of arguing this when new information arrived. I myself showed a tumblr post that may support the usage of side material as canon, as rhe people thst wrote the story for the games also wrote some of them.
The travel anti-feats includes a quote by Slayer suggesting that traveling between countries took much time. While Sol could barely catch up to a subsonic missile.
New stuff regarding god tiers:
- We have yet to come to a proper discussion regarding this. Some things seem to suggest that characters like Slayer, Nagoriyuki and Bedman possess a "true form" beyond "the real world" that is beyond time, genetics and physics, requiring them to "downconvert" themselves in order to even interact with anything. This is also elaborated upon by suggesting their "physical" selfs are one in an infinite amount, all of them below their "true" self. However, Xantospoc has argued that this is nonsense, as these characters have been shown being affected by time manipulation from other characters, and in particular the character of Bedman would imply that everyone would scale to these statements, as he has fought everyone in the verse.
Also, I apologize for the summary being a mess. The thread has touched upon a lot of stuff all over the place. We should really stick with talking one topic at a time.
I wish to apologize for yesterday's behavior. Covid vaccine made me act up, and even today I am in a terrible mood.
Between this and my focus on other matter, I change my mind from closing this thread, I will retire off this thread and allow everyone else to work on it.
For High 5-A scaling:
- Justice herself downscales, as her blast was made with x40 boost. Sol scales directly to her, with a couple more scaling to Sol, while the rest of the cast downscale even further. Ikelaggan and Keeweed can elaborate further on this.
For Speed:
We are still trying to find more consistent feats, as the one that have been brought were debunked (MFTL), are on the air (Scaling to blocking the Gamma Rays) or are plain anti-feats (Sol, Slayer travel feats)
The problem with gamma rays speed scaling as brought by Keeweed is that the characters aren't shown blocking them in time in gameplay. Ikelaggan brought side material that shows some characters capable of rescting and blocking them, but their canonicity has been put into question, because while the side material is featured and promoted by the company, they included a note that says some events were changed. Ikelaggan and Keeweed were in the process of arguing this when new information arrived. I myself showed a tumblr post that may support the usage of side material as canon, as rhe people thst wrote the story for the games also wrote some of them.
The travel anti-feats includes a quote by Slayer suggesting that traveling between countries took much time. While Sol could barely catch up to a subsonic missile.
New stuff regarding god tiers:
- We have yet to come to a proper discussion regarding this. Some things seem to suggest that characters like Slayer, Nagoriyuki and Bedman possess a "true form" beyond "the real world" that is beyond time, genetics and physics, requiring them to "downconvert" themselves in order to even interact with anything. This is also elaborated upon by suggesting their "physical" selfs are one in an infinite amount, all of them below their "true" self. However, Xantospoc has argued that this is nonsense, as these characters have been shown being affected by time manipulation from other characters, and in particular the character of Bedman would imply that everyone would scale to these statements, as he has fought everyone in the verse.
For High 5-A scaling:
- Justice herself downscales, as her blast was made with x40 boost. Sol scales directly to her, with a couple more scaling to Sol, while the rest of the cast downscale even further. Ikelaggan and Keeweed can elaborate further on this.
For Speed:
We are still trying to find more consistent feats, as the one that have been brought were debunked (MFTL), are on the air (Scaling to blocking the Gamma Rays) or are plain anti-feats (Sol, Slayer travel feats)
The problem with gamma rays speed scaling as brought by Keeweed is that the characters aren't shown blocking them in time in gameplay. Ikelaggan brought side material that shows some characters capable of rescting and blocking them, but their canonicity has been put into question, because while the side material is featured and promoted by the company, they included a note that says some events were changed. Ikelaggan and Keeweed were in the process of arguing this when new information arrived. I myself showed a tumblr post that may support the usage of side material as canon, as rhe people thst wrote the story for the games also wrote some of them.
The travel anti-feats includes a quote by Slayer suggesting that traveling between countries took much time. While Sol could barely catch up to a subsonic missile.
New stuff regarding god tiers:
- We have yet to come to a proper discussion regarding this. Some things seem to suggest that characters like Slayer, Nagoriyuki and Bedman possess a "true form" beyond "the real world" that is beyond time, genetics and physics, requiring them to "downconvert" themselves in order to even interact with anything. This is also elaborated upon by suggesting their "physical" selfs are one in an infinite amount, all of them below their "true" self. However, Xantospoc has argued that this is nonsense, as these characters have been shown being affected by time manipulation from other characters, and in particular the character of Bedman would imply that everyone would scale to these statements, as he has fought everyone in the verse.
For High 5-A scaling:
- Justice herself downscales, as her blast was made with x40 boost. Sol scales directly to her, with a couple more scaling to Sol, while the rest of the cast downscale even further. Ikelaggan and Keeweed can elaborate further on this.
For Speed:
We are still trying to find more consistent feats, as the one that have been brought were debunked (MFTL), are on the air (Scaling to blocking the Gamma Rays) or are plain anti-feats (Sol, Slayer travel feats)
The problem with gamma rays speed scaling as brought by Keeweed is that the characters aren't shown blocking them in time in gameplay. Ikelaggan brought side material that shows some characters capable of rescting and blocking them, but their canonicity has been put into question, because while the side material is featured and promoted by the company, they included a note that says some events were changed. Ikelaggan and Keeweed were in the process of arguing this when new information arrived. I myself showed a tumblr post that may support the usage of side material as canon, as rhe people thst wrote the story for the games also wrote some of them.
The travel anti-feats includes a quote by Slayer suggesting that traveling between countries took much time. While Sol could barely catch up to a subsonic missile.
New stuff regarding god tiers:
- We have yet to come to a proper discussion regarding this. Some things seem to suggest that characters like Slayer, Nagoriyuki and Bedman possess a "true form" beyond "the real world" that is beyond time, genetics and physics, requiring them to "downconvert" themselves in order to even interact with anything. This is also elaborated upon by suggesting their "physical" selfs are one in an infinite amount, all of them below their "true" self. However, Xantospoc has argued that this is nonsense, as these characters have been shown being affected by time manipulation from other characters, and in particular the character of Bedman would imply that everyone would scale to these statements, as he has fought everyone in the verse.
For High 5-A scaling:
- Justice herself downscales, as her blast was made with x40 boost. Sol scales directly to her, with a couple more scaling to Sol, while the rest of the cast downscale even further. Ikelaggan and Keeweed can elaborate further on this.
For Speed:
We are still trying to find more consistent feats, as the one that have been brought were debunked (MFTL), are on the air (Scaling to blocking the Gamma Rays) or are plain anti-feats (Sol, Slayer travel feats)
The problem with gamma rays speed scaling as brought by Keeweed is that the characters aren't shown blocking them in time in gameplay. Ikelaggan brought side material that shows some characters capable of rescting and blocking them, but their canonicity has been put into question, because while the side material is featured and promoted by the company, they included a note that says some events were changed. Ikelaggan and Keeweed were in the process of arguing this when new information arrived. I myself showed a tumblr post that may support the usage of side material as canon, as rhe people thst wrote the story for the games also wrote some of them.
The travel anti-feats includes a quote by Slayer suggesting that traveling between countries took much time. While Sol could barely catch up to a subsonic missile.
New stuff regarding god tiers:
- We have yet to come to a proper discussion regarding this. Some things seem to suggest that characters like Slayer, Nagoriyuki and Bedman possess a "true form" beyond "the real world" that is beyond time, genetics and physics, requiring them to "downconvert" themselves in order to even interact with anything. This is also elaborated upon by suggesting their "physical" selfs are one in an infinite amount, all of them below their "true" self. However, Xantospoc has argued that this is nonsense, as these characters have been shown being affected by time manipulation from other characters, and in particular the character of Bedman would imply that everyone would scale to these statements, as he has fought everyone in the verse.
Regarding the black hole feat,
When the Gear Maker explained creating a black hole within a pocket dimension to destroy the Felion barrier, he appears to refer to the black hole as a "spontaneous microverse":
That Man: Magic draws power directly from the Backyard, and I'm serving as an intermediary. Frederick's fist will carry more energy than anything on this planet is capable of producing. I convert that energy into matter, and we contain that within a pocket dimension using the Schwarzschild radial limit. We then destroy the physical space occupied by the barrier, creating a spontaneous microverse. The rest is simple--we need only to take measures to ensure the world isn't destroyed in the process.
If we take the radius of the black hole as half a micrometer, The result should be Low 5-B. This would make good supporting evidence for the accepted High 5-A calc.
Does the microverse statement give us a size for the black hole?
Travel-speed anti-feats aside, an extremely solid combat speed feat is reacting to Gamma Ray in the official digest comics for the early games:
The counter argument presented is not against the feat itself (like the early games' 'cutscenes'), but that there is a disclaimed that some events might be different from the games:
However the comics would've been treated as Secondary Canon without the disclaimer, and it seem that the disclaimer only affirms their status as Secondary Canon instead of changing it.
Furthermore, the game developers themselves are credited for directing the comics, meaning that they made effort to supervise consistency:
And they apparently approve of characters reacting to Gamma Ray.
Regarding Happy Chaos's arcade statements, it appears to take place within a time loop, and there are two different versions of the dialogue, with the one appearing in Extreme difficult acting as a sequel to the normal dialogue:
I-No: An illusion?
Happy Chaos: Only one way to find out.
[Fight ensues]
I-No: For an illusion, you sure put up a good fight.
Happy Chaos: Please, I'm no illusion. I'm a prisoner. Just like you boss. And this is one s***ty prison. No action, and no drama.
I-No: Oh good. You're the real Chaos after all. How did you figure out I'd end up in this Paradox, anyway?
Happy Chaos: After all we've been through, I can't imagine we'd be kept apart for too long. Let's take a walk. Nagoriyuki: Hatred: zero. Demo, I will cut you.
Happy Chaos: Now, you're giving me high hopes.
I-No: Looks like you're every bit as popular here.
Happy Chaos: I'm pretty sure he's not the one, either. But I did gain something. He's sensing me.
I-No: And what exactly did you "gain" on our not-so-ordinary walk?
Happy Chaos: An entity similar to the real Nagoriyuki could be a key to our original world.
I-No: Excuse me? So, what, you've started defining your own reason to exist?
Happy Chaos: I've always had a mind of my own, but I've never had any purpose. But if I've got a way of escaping this place, doesn't that mean something has a purpose for me?
I-No: Sounds like a question you should save for your therapist.
Happy Chaos: So, what, you're saying that it's mere coincidence that you share an ID with a woman that isn't a parallel world version of you, but ALSO isn't a completely different person?
I-No: It must have been fate. The word you hate the most.
Happy Chaos: I prefer to believe that I have a right to make my own choices. Besides, I hear the voices in my head calling out, "Save us!"
I-No: Save us?
Happy Chaos: Maybe next time, I'll be playing the hero.
Nagoriyuki: You dare avert your filthy gaze?!
[Fight ensues] Nagoriyuki: Munennn!
[Nagoriyuki leaves]
I-No: So, what do you plan to do back in our original world?
Happy Chaos: I already told you. Something's got a purpose for me. I'm sure it'll find me in time. But until it does, I guess I'm just gonna hang out and enjoy some good food. So, how 'bout it, Boss? You coming along?
I-No: Well, that's a bold ask. I'm pretty sure you realize that if I go back now, I'll make a paradox of the whole damn timeline.
Happy Chaos: Worried you're gonna tear the fabric of time? It may have more give than we think, Boss...
I-No: I'm not your boss anymore.
Happy Chaos: Yeah... I guess not.
I-No: The future is mine to create.
Happy Chaos: Delusional, but ambitious. Great stuff.
I-No: Hold it. You're hiding something from me.
Happy Chaos: You got me. Yeah, fine, I DO have a birthmark on my butt! There's a lot I haven't told you. You'll have to be more specific.
I-No: All right. Then do you know a way out of this place?
Happy Chaos: If I did, would you come with me?
I-No: Answer the question: Do you know, or not?
Happy Chaos: Okay, let's simmer down a little. No need to get spicy. You know what demi-humans are, right? Vampires, werewolves, that sorta thing? Well, if you thought Gears were neat, get a load of this. Demi-humans transcend genetics, physics, and even time itself. But plainly, their very existence is essentially a bug in our world's programming. Unlike you or me, they don't have IDs. They're the same existences across independent segments. And because of that, they subconsciously contain information about parallel universes. Meaning that demi-humans can act as terminals that allow us access to parallel worlds. Though obviously, as dwellers of infinite timelines, they need to down convert to our simple definition of Planck time in order to exist in what we call "the real world." And heavens to Betsy does that make finding actionable information on them difficult. Like finding one particle of sand across the vastness of the universe. Did you know there was a guy named Bedman who managed to delete his own ID and became a multi-dimensional being. Anyway, that's where Nagoriyuki comes in. He wasn't born a demi-human. He became one. A hybrid, if you will. I can access different timelines by following little references in his old memories. Once I do that, the rest is simple.
I-No: Oh good, I was worried this might be complicated.
Happy Chaos: Er... Yeah... Sorry, let's get back out of the weeds here. Are you coming with me, or not?
I-No: ... In a way, this paradox is the world I desired. There's no reason for me to leave it yet.
Happy Chaos: To be clear: Your story was a fabrication, but I don't intend to rewrite it. Though I suspect that in the near future, someone will need you. And when that time comes... Come play with me again. Nagoriyuki: I... will. kill. you.
Happy Chaos: Bullseye!
[Fight ensues]
Nagoriyuki: Piece of s***! I want nani-mo nothing to do with you.
Happy Chaos: Aw, look, the fragment of possibility's aware enough to remember me. That's good. My hypothesis is starting to hold water. Let's hope I get to meet the real you next time.
The most relevant part:
You know what demi-humans are, right? Vampires, werewolves, that sorta thing? Well, if you thought Gears were neat, get a load of this. Demi-humans transcend genetics, physics, and even time itself. But plainly, their very existence is essentially a bug in our world's programming. Unlike you or me, they don't have IDs. They're the same existences across independent segments. And because of that, they subconsciously contain information about parallel universes. Meaning that demi-humans can act as terminals that allow us access to parallel worlds. Though obviously, as dwellers of infinite timelines, they need to down convert to our simple definition of Planck time in order to exist in what we call "the real world." And heavens to Betsy does that make finding actionable information on them difficult. Like finding one particle of sand across the vastness of the universe. Did you know there was a guy named Bedman who managed to delete his own ID and became a multi-dimensional being. Anyway, that's where Nagoriyuki comes in. He wasn't born a demi-human. He became one. A hybrid, if you will. I can access different timelines by following little references in his old memories. Once I do that, the rest is simple.
So it seems that Humans and Gears within a timeline are assigned some sort of individual ID number/tag by the multiverse. But since Demi-humans/human hybrids/fantasy creatures are a bug in the system, they lack an ID making them multiversal and multi-dimensional beings who need to down convert a version of themselves to exist within a timeline.
So the down converted versions would essentially be avatars. Don't think anyone scales, but Bedman and Nagoriyuki might get an additional key.
Bedman deleting his ID might have happened the moment he died in -REVELATOR-, or the down converted version would just scale to everyone else.
Most of everyone else in mid to low were gonna get like 40 times downscale version of the High 5-A mostly due to crow in GGAC making knock off clones of justice.
I was gonna use the PWAB risk rating for most of anyone pre-overture at least since most of the valentines scaling is pretty straightforward since they're blueprint arias and considered justice tier level threats.
Sadly no, I researched Microverse and all I got was the Microverse from Marvel (which we can't use because different world) and an online school for remote programming. I don't think Asura was talking about it.
I still think that to use it as a planetary feat (even though it's likely far higher) as in literally taking the statement "It holds more energy than anything on the planet" would work.
ABOUT SPEED
The speed is.. still iffy to me. We seriously need to put a list of every speed feat to see if we can find anything). I can see GG characters being FTL and even MFTL
ABOUT THE ID-ERASED ONES (BEDMAN AND DEMI-HUMANS)
This is... weird. But at least it doesn't make some insane scaling, given how the 'true selves' don't seem to be able to interact nor control their power (otherwise Slayer would have trashed Bedman by accessing to his full 5-D power, same for Nagoriyuki not being able to fight off Goddess I-No with 5-D powers). It does add up with how Sharon, Slayer's wife, was mentioned to be a glitch in the Backyard System , although unlike Slayer and others, she is still human.
I wouldn't mind get the original japanese dialogue translated to see further evidences.
Most of everyone else in mid to low were gonna get like 40 times downscale version of the High 5-A mostly due to crow in GGAC making knock off clones of justice.
Issue is, the Imitation-Series Justice scales only to SEALED Justice from Guilty Gear - Missing Link, not her full power. We don't know how much weaker is the Sealed Justice compared to the original. I am also sure a few couldn't even scale to THAT. For example, Baiken couldn't even scratch an Imitation Series Justice.
When they take on genuine high tier, like Sol, they can't even scratch him. Heck, they couldn't take on Ky who usually trashed everyone back in X and XX until fighting with Sol (who trashed him back until Xrd)
We can scale them to far above Megadeth class Gear, given even the weakest ones can take a Megadeth class one, and the Guilty Gear Xtra manga should work to give us some idea for their power. I think the original link had them being... High 6-A? I assume Justice at its weakest was still above them
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