Further Guilty Gear Revisions

[Keeweed]

Last I checked we don’t solve for distance like that because it leads to inflated unfounded results. The last traveled the furthest distance it could in a single frame while the characters barely move an inch. I’ve been repeatedly told we don’t scale characters to stuff similar to that since it would lead to stuff like massively hypersonic+ humans in real life.

Is that manga absolutely still canon. Because if so that would immediately clear up any issues with gamma ray and it can be used. (Note I’ve played the games: I haven’t read the mangas because I don’t have the time and I don’t even know which ones are canon and which ones aren’t).

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The comics are part of promotional material for Strive and advertised in the official website for learning the lore and backstory of the series:

STORY | GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- | ARC SYSTEM WORKS

GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- OFFICIAL SITE

www.guiltygear.com

 

[Keeweed]

Um that site has this to say: “Please understand that there may be parts of the story that differ from previous titles in the series, including Story Modes.”

That makes it seem very non canon to me. Just a quick recap, but the original should take priority.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Since we have potential Tier 4 ends, it is definitely time to bring the black hole creation feat into the picture. Here are the scans:

Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN-:

Leo: What's happening?! That Man: Magic draws power directly from the Backyard, and I'm serving as an intermediary. Frederick's fist will carry more energy than anything on this planet is capable of producing. I convert that energy into matter, and we contain that within a pocket dimension using the Schwarzschild radial limit. We then destroy the physical space occupied by the barrier, creating a spontaneous microverse. The rest is simple--we need only to take measures to ensure the world isn't destroyed in the process.

The feat was also referenced in -REVELATOR- and explicitly called a black hole:

That Man: This is not good... The prison is much tougher than I thought. Chronus: Having some trouble, Gear Maker? I guess you can't use that Blackhole strategy you showed us a few days ago on your own. That Man: Chronus... Chronus: Absolute defense, Felion... This technology took centuries to master. Impressive, no?

The biggest problem I see in that feat is that we actually don't see the black hole at all. Or, the event horizon I suppose. Like, the glowing ball obviously isn't the black hole in itself (if it were that would mean light is escaping it, which would be a problem with our standards). It might be the ascension disc or... well it doesn't really matter what the glowing ball is. The problem is that without knowing the event horizon size, the feat is just unquantifiable. Creating a black hole in itself has no lower bound on how much energy it requires.

Black Holes has to distort light in a very specific way (yes our standards are that cartoonishly strict) and they have to spaghettify things.

Neither of these two are actually our standards. Our standards are what is written on the corresponding wiki page. There are similar standards to this (i.e. a singularity destroys anything below High 3-A durability and light may not escape the event horizon), but not quite these.

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Keeweed]

I’ve seen black holes be rejected for both of those things before plenty of times (the light part is there, though), so if that’s not the actual standard I need to relook over some other versus when I get the chance.

 

[Xantospoc]

... This week end was the wrong one to begin playing Metroid Dread and shut off living interaction, hmmm?
This said, I have read and seen the feats, and I am wholly supportive of the revived calculation, but that one would mostly be for the high tier (AKA The ones that can take on Justice at full power or base Sol, which are admittedly a few)

I am not sure if we can scale the weaker characters to her (AKA Most humans)

 

[Ikelaggan]

Last I checked we don’t solve for distance like that because it leads to inflated unfounded results. The last traveled the furthest distance it could in a single frame while the characters barely move an inch. I’ve been repeatedly told we don’t scale characters to stuff similar to that since it would lead to stuff like massively hypersonic+ humans in real life.

That hypersonic+ human thing sounds like they didn't factor in stopping or changes in speed and not constant speed which I understand why they don't use it cause the speed factor has to at a constant rate of speed which only really works for stuff like light which goes at a constant rate with its speed.

Um that site has this to say: “Please understand that there may be parts of the story that differ from previous titles in the series, including Story Modes.”

That makes it seem very non canon to me. Just a quick recap, but the original should take priority.

It has that citation on it cause since it's in a digest format there had to a majority of things in the timeline that had to be skipped over it's especially noticable in chapter 4 going into 5 jumping from X plus straight into overture.

 

[Keeweed]

But that won’t differ, that would just be a skip. It differing applies they changed somethings. Even then nothing says it’s canon; it’s specifically exist to just be a recap. There are legitimately manga called “the official manga” for some anime that are non canon. This, meanwhile, is a recap that openly says it isn’t completely accurate. It’s especially jarring that Sol would get his speed from the manga when the game the manga is based off has gamma ray be instant in comparison to Sol (or at least move so ridiculously far in comparison that it might as well not be a feat (because light would still travel over a dozen miles in a single frame while Sol would move a few inches)).

I mean the canonness of side stories is always a funky subject on this site and if the majority think it’s fine I won’t be too against it. I just would find it awkward to use: it’s like when we used Fallout NV’s book as the main canon for a bit. It’s just very weird to me.

 

[Ikelaggan]

But that won’t differ, that would just be a skip. It differing applies they changed somethings. Even then nothing says it’s canon; it’s specifically exist to just be a recap. There are legitimately manga called “the official manga” for some anime that are non canon. This, meanwhile, is a recap that openly says it isn’t completely accurate. It’s especially jarring that Sol would get his speed from the manga when the game the manga is based off has gamma ray be instant in comparison to Sol (or at least move so ridiculously far in comparison that it might as well not be a feat (because light would still travel over a dozen miles in a single frame while Sol would move a few inches)).

I mean the canonness of side stories is always a funky subject on this site and if the majority think it’s fine I won’t be too against it. I just would find it awkward to use: it’s like when we used Fallout NV’s book as the main canon for a bit. It’s just very weird to me.

Well unless your gonna bust out the guilty gear bible and guilty gear begin and scrub through it and see what they changed in comparison to main the story they're be no real reason to assume it's just noncanon just due to the citation alone.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean the citation is literally saying this source isn’t accurate and using the original would be preferable. But, again, side material like this is hard to find stuff on its canonness. Like I’ve looked for multiple hours to see if the other mangas are canon or not and I can’t find anything on the subject other than the mangas being a bit old (referring to the older ones).

This manga exist purely for recapping purposes which I don’t see why that would take canon priority over the original story itself. Especially since, as you’ve said, these recaps have to skip stuff.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Like I’ve looked for multiple hours to see if the other mangas are canon or not and I can’t find anything on the subject other than the mangas being a bit old (referring to the older ones).

Found this regarding that, don't know if it helps.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I mean the citation is literally saying this source isn’t accurate and using the original would be preferable. But, again, side material like this is hard to find stuff on its canonness. Like I’ve looked for multiple hours to see if the other mangas are canon or not and I can’t find anything on the subject other than the mangas being a bit old (referring to the older ones).

This manga exist purely for recapping purposes which I don’t see why that would take canon priority over the original story itself. Especially since, as you’ve said, these recaps have to skip stuff.

"Please understand that there may be parts of the story that differ from previous titles in the series, including Story Modes"
The quote straight from the website saying abosulty nothing about that.
If anything your view on the cannon is more subjective, and citation makes it clear that they had change/shorten certain scenes to fit into the amount of pages they could make available into a digestible format otherwise this would be 50 chapters instead of seven. Plus these help alot better than scrubbing through mostly untranslated novels to find the same feat but locked behind having to decipher it in novelization form.

 

[Keeweed]

It says it differs, which means it isn’t accurate. And the site says this manga is to catch up new fans on the story, so a recap. The novel feat would be vastly different since the distances would be different. So the more canon, non recap, stories absolutely should be used over the recap that says it differs from the original.

 

[Ikelaggan]

It says it differs, which means it isn’t accurate. And the site says this manga is to catch up new fans on the story, so a recap. The novel feat would be vastly different since the distances would be different. So the more canon, non recap, stories absolutely should be used over the recap that says it differs from the original.

Except you have to prove there's something different that changed in this story that contradicts the mainline story otherwise you'd still pre assuming that it's only noncanon due to that citation, that's something you can't grantstand and set in stone until you actually show a massive contradiction to the mainline that's not just one game or novel being pushed into a few pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to DontTalk for helping out.

Have the rest of you reached any conclusions here yet?

 

[Xantospoc]

Neither of these two are actually our standards. Our standards are what is written on the corresponding wiki page. There are similar standards to this (i.e. a singularity destroys anything below High 3-A durability and light may not escape the event horizon), but not quite these.

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

About the Blackhole. While I agree it may not be feasible, there is however a statement that it holds more energy than anything on the planet. Wouldn't that still be a planetary feat?

 

[Antvasima]

No, anything on the planet would likely just mean any power plant, nuclear weapon, or other energy generator there.

 

[Ikelaggan]

About the Blackhole. While I agree it may not be feasible, there is however a statement that it holds more energy than anything on the planet. Wouldn't that still be a planetary feat?

Now, if your talking about anything on the planet that would mean anything technology wise on the planet meaning it technically be as powerful if not more powerful than saint Oratorio which has limitless energy and this would consistent since both sol and asuka studied/help with creating the technology on that scale.

Guilty Gear Explanation Page

So, some people told me to make a Guilty Gear blog because Guilty Gear is confusing and whatnot. So I made this for you, anyone out there reading this, confused of Guilty Gear lore and abilities and need help. Sorry for full Japanese scans you will see, I'm playing JP version. Let's start. Gears...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm, wouldn't High 3-A be an outlier, or a mistake by the authors, then?

 

[Ikelaggan]

Hmm, wouldn't High 3-A be an outlier, or a mistake by the authors, then?

Now that would be the case if magic itself wasn't already considered a limitless energy supply that tech like the saint Oratorio can harness.

Guilty Gear Series Story digest comics - Chapter 1 | NEWS | GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- | ARC SYSTEM WORKS

GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- OFFICIAL SITE

www.guiltygear.com

Magic

Magic, also called sorcery, is a limitless form of natural energy in the Guilty Gear series. First introduced in the original Guilty Gear, it is the source of the combatants' manifested powers and the abnormalities that occur in the world. While its discovery solved the energy crisis that...

guilty-gear.fandom.com

 

[Ikelaggan]

Gear Project — What all does magic allow one to do in the Guilty...

I just found the one gear project mentioned.

 

[Xantospoc]

Magic shouldn't count as something from the 'planet', given it's coming from the Backyard
Nor anyone scales to the Saint Oratorio Cannon (given Goddess I-NO, who was still above Sol even in her supressed mode) was obliterated by one shot of it

 

[Ikelaggan]

Magic shouldn't count as something from the 'planet', given it's coming from the Backyard
Nor anyone scales to the Saint Oratorio Cannon (given Goddess I-NO, who was still above Sol even in her supressed mode) was obliterated by one shot of it

Yes, magic does stem it's orgin from the backyard but the technology like saint Oratorio is tech that man made on earth harness that unlimited energy. You have several weapons i.e. the Sacred Treasures not mention even Justice's armor uses saint Oratorio.

 

[Xantospoc]

The Outrage Weapons can only use a partial version, same for Justice's Armor, it takes much more specific cases and powers to do so.

And again, we have seen no character can take head on a Saint Oratorio Cannon: Ariels uses her barriers (and gets shreked by Sol's open attack) while Goddess I-No (who is above Ky, who should easily be above Sol) was one shot by a SOC.

So no matter what, no character should scale to it, much less Sol

 

[Ikelaggan]

The Outrage Weapons can only use a partial version, same for Justice's Armor, it takes much more specific cases and powers to do so.

So where are you asserting that from, cause even if that's a weaker version the spell saint Oratorio itself would still be unlimited cause it's pulling from a infinite source being magic that comes from the backyard which is higher dimensional so taking a high 3-A energy isn't a problem.

Outrage

The Outrage is an extremely powerful amplification device meant to channel and magnify magic energy designed as an anti-Gear weapon by Sol Badguy. The other version of it in the Guilty Gear Xrd games is the Junkyard Dog, which he designed as a "simple" version of the Outrage, although weaker...

guilty-gear.fandom.com

And again, we have seen no character can take head on a Saint Oratorio Cannon: Ariels uses her barriers (and gets shreked by Sol's open attack) while Goddess I-No (who is above Ky, who should easily be above Sol) was one shot by a SOC.

Ariels does get one shot by it but still had enough energy to make a barrier to protect sol and Jack-O from a blast, you don't tank getting blasted with high 3-A energy without getting killed or just straight atomized to dust. So saying only the barrier scales is inconsistent when we see her just get knocked out with mostly small scorch on her, and you can't say she only scales to half or even a portion of it cause theirs no implications that asuka wasn't charging this at full power and holding back the infinite power at the same time you can't divide or subtract infinite without dividing or subtracting with another infinite i.e. holding an infinite portion back.

 

[Xantospoc]

Ariels doesn't scale because she was one shot by Sol, not by the SoC.
Only the barrier scales.
Or we are saying somehow Sol scales above infinite (which doesn't make sense)

 

[Ikelaggan]

Ariels doesn't scale because she was one shot by Sol, not by the SoC.
Only the barrier scales.
Or we are saying somehow Sol scales above infinite (which doesn't make sense)

Sol catches her off guard she's still consensus during the blast and mostly get scorched by the blast and if knocked out. And I'm saying sol scales to the infinity.
And I'm pulling from the script too just to cement this further.
St. Maximus: Huh!? [The Saint Oratorio reaches their location; she blocks] Hrg... [Sol stands behind her.] Heh heh heh... HAHAHAHA! How long have you lived...? Tell me, how long have you lived!? Don't tell me you haven't seen the future! Where the world is headed... Everything you've experienced. Everything you've done will be denied. Is that really what you want? Remember...the past. You fall in love? You overcome your troubles to achieve something? You ever get excited about what the future holds? Tell me everything... ...about your past!Sol: C'mon now...Ky: You can't mention that...Sol: Don't push your luck. [hits her against the Saint Oratorio]St. Maximus: [swept off by the beam] U'rraaaaaaaaaaoh! [the beam reaches Jack-O' and Ariels falls off to the ground, beaten; Elphelt is separated from Justice

 

[Xantospoc]

Sol doesn't scale, definitively

Saint Oratorio > Repressed Goddess I-No >Ky Kiske > Sol Badguy > Ariels > Saint Oratorio by your statement

It's a scaling chain that is objectively wrong and not worth considering

 

[Ikelaggan]

Sol doesn't scale, definitively

Saint Oratorio > Repressed Goddess I-No >Ky Kiske > Sol Badguy > Ariels > Saint Oratorio by your statement

No, you objectively have the scaling chronology backwards and situationally out of order. I-no in her God had to be taken out by a outrage that only had two Sacred Treasures and it had to be powered by zealpods so if anything sol had no time to use saint Oratorio which is why when sol right before he got flung into a tree by I-no the junkyard dog wasn't able to do much at all cause sol doesn't have his gear cells to tap into that higher reserve from the backyard i.e. your writer/programmer being much weaker due to a lack of a software sequencer thus the hardware sequencer and the score are weaker unless a stronger hardware sequencer is added.

It's a scaling chain that is objectively wrong and not worth considering

Outrage amped with zealpods > Repressed Goddess I-No ≥ Ky with dragon install ≥ Sol with dragon install > serious Ky Kiske > Base Sol Badguy > Ariels ≥ Saint Oratorio
It goes like this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Now, if your talking about anything on the planet that would mean anything technology wise on the planet meaning it technically be as powerful if not more powerful than saint Oratorio which has limitless energy and this would consistent since both sol and asuka studied/help with creating the technology on that scale.

Guilty Gear Explanation Page

So, some people told me to make a Guilty Gear blog because Guilty Gear is confusing and whatnot. So I made this for you, anyone out there reading this, confused of Guilty Gear lore and abilities and need help. Sorry for full Japanese scans you will see, I'm playing JP version. Let's start. Gears...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Obligatory reminder that limitless energy source doesn't necessarily mean capable of producing High 3-A energy, but usually just means capable of eternally delivering a certain finite wattage.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

What is weird is that it is not stated to eternally delivering a finite wattage; it is stated to be delivering 'infinite power' for a finite amount of time (until Zeal Pods batteries run out).

I-No: No matter what you bring, I'm not going away. 100% chance. Though I guess you can't even comprehend what 100% even means to me now. Sol: It doesn't mean shit to anyone but you. It's just some tiny moment of your own little world. [points the Outrage at her] The Outrage. As long as the energy from the zeal pods last, it'll output an infinite amount of power. [...] I-No: Wha!? [Sol shoots.] Tch! [uses her right hand to stop the Saint Oratorio] ...! Sol: Rather than something being 100% impossible, you could also say its 0% possible. [zeal pods shatter] And infinity... ...crushes zero! [her arm begins to crack; the Fireseal inside the Outrage glows, taking its toll on Sol's body] I-No: Ha... hahaha... ...What the shit. [Silence.] Tell me. You were indestructible. There's no way you'd ever need a weapon like that. So why the hell did you make it? Sol: Because it never bored me.

The reason Sol needs to hit her weakpoint is to bypass her regenerative capabilities. So maybe no tier change is needed for I-No, and she can only survive the energy because she has absurd Regeneration:

Ky: Sol, I-No has regenerative capabilities. Sol: No shit. If I can't hit her weak point, she'll be right -- it'll all be for nothing. Like I said, I'll put up the best fight I can. Ky: That's all I ask. And I'll do the same.

 

[Xantospoc]

No, you objectively have the scaling chronology backwards and situationally out of order. I-no in her God had to be taken out by a outrage that only had two Sacred Treasures

It's explictly called a Saint Oratorio Cannon the technique Sol used against her. Heck, the Saint Oratorio is made out of the same stuff of the outrage.
Literally you are wrong about everything

 

[Ikelaggan]

New stuff I just found and I think happy chaos just revived low 1-C physicals back from the grave cause vampires in the verse just blatantly transcended genetics, physics, and even time now. And Bedman is no longer a smurf withlow 1-C hax he's just straight a up multi dimensional being/higher dimensional being now. And I guess arcade takes place in a weird identical paradox world of the real world. Now this is why I so hesitant on any massive CRTs just jumping out of blue cause wild out of the blue new info just resurrected it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

New stuff I just found and I think happy chaos just revived low 1-C physicals back from the grave cause vampires in the verse just blatantly transcended genetics, physics, and even time now. And Bedman is no longer a smurf withlow 1-C hax he's just straight a up multi dimensional being/higher dimensional being now. And I guess arcade takes place in a weird identical paradox world of the real world. Now this is why I so hesitant on any massive CRTs just jumping out of blue cause wild out of the blue new info just resurrected it.

Was just talking about this with a friend, funny enough.

 

[Xantospoc]

New stuff I just found and I think happy chaos just revived low 1-C physicals back from the grave cause vampires in the verse just blatantly transcended genetics, physics, and even time now. And Bedman is no longer a smurf withlow 1-C hax he's just straight a up multi dimensional being/higher dimensional being now. And I guess arcade takes place in a weird identical paradox world of the real world. Now this is why I so hesitant on any massive CRTs just jumping out of blue cause wild out of the blue new info just resurrected it.

Happy Chaos didn't revive a Low 1-C physicals.
The revived I-No doesn't have her goddess powers, so she is back to her semi-fodder tier.

The Nagoriyuki is blatantly called a copy and I-No points out fought better than Chaos.
And the whole 'trascending time' is likely due to hax, given the vampires are CLEARLY affected by this stuff throughout the entire story.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Happy Chaos didn't revive a Low 1-C physicals.
The revived I-No doesn't have her goddess powers, so she is back to her semi-fodder tier.

The Nagoriyuki is blatantly called a copy and I-No points out fought better than Chaos.
And the whole 'trascending time' is likely due to hax, given the vampires are CLEARLY affected by this stuff throughout the entire story.

Your blaintly not reading into it, all these nagos are the same existence across independent segments.
The only thing you blatantly said is "oh these vampires exist in the timeline so their clearly bound by it" even though any time hax argument you'd bring up now would get shot down due to I-no in her Goddess state having time hax on a much higher temporal level since this even froze Jack-O who's a Valentine who's born right in the backyard. And transcendence over time only being hax could only get slapped on the aboslute world not nago so asserting as a hax transcendence with no evidence is very arbitrary to assume off the bat. Plus theirs a clear gap between the physical low 1-C Nago and slayer are getting and the backyard low 1-C. Which regrettingly I should of told Ultima this back in the first CRT about the backyard upscaling above underworld hill.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Here we go again with the low 1-C bullshit

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

I don't think every character gonna get back to low 1C
but I think Happy Chaos should get low 1C hax because he can seal backyard in to single tome

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I don't know think every character gonna get back to low 1C
but I think Happy Chaos should get low 1C hax because he can seal backyard in to single tome

This one however i agree

But how about the vampires? Thats where the low 1-C being brought up again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This one however i agree

But how about the vampires? Thats where the low 1-C being brought up again

It's literally stated that to even interact with "the real world" they have to "downconvert" themselves. So no one would scale to them imo.