Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
Stands qualifies as supernatural phenomenon ib erases those
-
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Funny Valentine VS Kamijou Touma
- Thread starter TauanVictor
- Start date
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
If ib can erase an 11d attack it can erase an stand which qualies as supernatural according to toaru's pure world
As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces
as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the
force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases
were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of
glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.
Everything was ripped up.
The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.
Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying
anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the
world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would
produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as
“creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.
The convenience of the world of man meant nothing.
The destruction carried out by the god took precedence.
Its greatest effect was causing any resisting human who saw it to give up.
It provided such an overwhelming feeling of resignation that even an experienced hero
would fall to his knees and end his challenge.
Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what
form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving.
That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left
the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces. Not even Fiamma of the Right or
Ollerus could have done anything when faced with it.
There was no way a normal high school boy could overcome it.
Even with a special power in his right hand, he would be smashed to pieces before he
could use it.
However…
(Weren’t you listening, Othinus?)
Kamijou Touma thought to himself as he silently stared at the tip of the giant lance created
by sacrificing an entire world.
(I’m not a special person, I might normally lose to a professional magician, and I’m
nothing more than a high school student.)
In the instant of firing the lance, Othinus’s face twisted slightly.
She must have seen the look on the boy’s face.
Yes.
Kamijou Touma was smiling ever so slightly.
“But right now, I can overcome you!!!!”
The action he took was simple.
He tightly clenched his right fist and used his entire body weight to thrust it forward.
No one would have been able to keep up with its overwhelming speed. Their bodies would
have been smashed to pieces before they could even hope to follow the tip of the lance
with their eyes.
But the experience he had built up accurately guided his movements.
He had achieved a surefire attack that would work on Magic God Othinus and no one else.
Kamijou Touma’s right fist was sucked in toward the one point that no one else would
have been able to reach.
His fist reached the sharp tip of Gungnir.
In that instant, all sound vanished from the world.
The kind world vanished and everything was dyed in black.
When Kamijou Touma’s right fist struck it, the lance veered sharply upward.
When Othinus held up her hand, the lance rotated complexly and began to fly back to her
hand through the black sky.
But it never completed the action.
The lance broke apart in midair and completely disintegrated before returning to Othinus
like a boomerang.
“…”
Kamijou’s fist did not escape unscathed.
The middle and ring finger of his supposedly tightly clenched fist had been twisted at a
distinctly odd angle.
- New Testament Volume 9 Chapter 8 Part 3
as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the
force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases
were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of
glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.
Everything was ripped up.
The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.
Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying
anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the
world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would
produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as
“creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.
The convenience of the world of man meant nothing.
The destruction carried out by the god took precedence.
Its greatest effect was causing any resisting human who saw it to give up.
It provided such an overwhelming feeling of resignation that even an experienced hero
would fall to his knees and end his challenge.
Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what
form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving.
That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left
the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces. Not even Fiamma of the Right or
Ollerus could have done anything when faced with it.
There was no way a normal high school boy could overcome it.
Even with a special power in his right hand, he would be smashed to pieces before he
could use it.
However…
(Weren’t you listening, Othinus?)
Kamijou Touma thought to himself as he silently stared at the tip of the giant lance created
by sacrificing an entire world.
(I’m not a special person, I might normally lose to a professional magician, and I’m
nothing more than a high school student.)
In the instant of firing the lance, Othinus’s face twisted slightly.
She must have seen the look on the boy’s face.
Yes.
Kamijou Touma was smiling ever so slightly.
“But right now, I can overcome you!!!!”
The action he took was simple.
He tightly clenched his right fist and used his entire body weight to thrust it forward.
No one would have been able to keep up with its overwhelming speed. Their bodies would
have been smashed to pieces before they could even hope to follow the tip of the lance
with their eyes.
But the experience he had built up accurately guided his movements.
He had achieved a surefire attack that would work on Magic God Othinus and no one else.
Kamijou Touma’s right fist was sucked in toward the one point that no one else would
have been able to reach.
His fist reached the sharp tip of Gungnir.
In that instant, all sound vanished from the world.
The kind world vanished and everything was dyed in black.
When Kamijou Touma’s right fist struck it, the lance veered sharply upward.
When Othinus held up her hand, the lance rotated complexly and began to fly back to her
hand through the black sky.
But it never completed the action.
The lance broke apart in midair and completely disintegrated before returning to Othinus
like a boomerang.
“…”
Kamijou’s fist did not escape unscathed.
The middle and ring finger of his supposedly tightly clenched fist had been twisted at a
distinctly odd angle.
- New Testament Volume 9 Chapter 8 Part 3
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
It's supernatural it's just if a soul exists inside the body it's still maintaining the harmony with the world but a soul outside isn't and ib doesn't necessarily just negates it changes if something doesn't follow the rules of pure world it's forcefully changed and damage transfer rule will still apply a stand because ib is still negating the stand aka damaging it which causes the user to get hurt too
“A Magic God can distort the world as she desires. She can distort it as she wishes, but it cannot always be brought back to how it was before. Any childishly selfish wish such as making all the water running from the water pipes turn into orange juice is perfectly doable. But the more the world is distorted, the greater the danger of some kind of harmful side effects presenting themselves. And even if she tries to turn the world back to how it was, there is a danger of her no longer being able to tell exactly how the original world was after distorting it. These changes we are talking about are like changing the length of a meter or changing the weight of a gram.”
“So if that’s the fear, what is the hope?”
“A world like that would be a frightening thing, wouldn’t it? Even if you can alter everything to your selfish whims, you would want some kind of insurance, wouldn’t you? The simplest way to put it would be a backup or a reference point you could use to return the world to normal. I suppose you could say your right hand is like the International Prototype Kilogram. Even if the world is utterly distorted and you can no longer recall how long a meter used to be or how heavy a gram used to be, your right hand can negate all magic, so a reference point still exists. By measuring the length, weight, and temperature of your right hand, someone who has distorted the world too greatly can recall what the original world was like. It acts as a lifeline that allows the world to be reverted to normal, no matter how far it has been distorted in any direction.”
“So if that’s the fear, what is the hope?”
“A world like that would be a frightening thing, wouldn’t it? Even if you can alter everything to your selfish whims, you would want some kind of insurance, wouldn’t you? The simplest way to put it would be a backup or a reference point you could use to return the world to normal. I suppose you could say your right hand is like the International Prototype Kilogram. Even if the world is utterly distorted and you can no longer recall how long a meter used to be or how heavy a gram used to be, your right hand can negate all magic, so a reference point still exists. By measuring the length, weight, and temperature of your right hand, someone who has distorted the world too greatly can recall what the original world was like. It acts as a lifeline that allows the world to be reverted to normal, no matter how far it has been distorted in any direction.”
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
First, Stand isn't the soul but a manifestion of one's:
Stands are the incorporeal manifestations of one's vital energy, and can only be harmed by other Stands
Second, based on the context above IB revert everything back to normal which is what i'm trying say, Valentine can't summon his Stand because its get negs so the damage transfer won't happened in the first place.
Stands are the incorporeal manifestations of one's vital energy, and can only be harmed by other Stands
Second, based on the context above IB revert everything back to normal which is what i'm trying say, Valentine can't summon his Stand because its get negs so the damage transfer won't happened in the first place.
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
And any damage done to an stand is transferred to it's user ib doesn't need to affect the user's soul just affecting the stand is enough the user will automatically get affected and Valentine can summon his stand it's just that of ib touches it it's done for
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
So how does it affect Valentine's soul in anyway? If what IB does is revert supernatural into normal then it have zero effect on him. Once again damage tranfer don't work because Valentine's Stand got nulled in the first place.
- 174
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If Imagine Breaker had infinite negation speed, sure. It doesn't, though. Recoil from supernatural power back to the user can still happen:
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
@Aminadab_Brulle
Literally what Valentine does is punching Touma so nothing gonna happened like that.
That is assuming D4C can do some kind of soul fuckery stuff but like i said above all he does is punching.
Literally what Valentine does is punching Touma so nothing gonna happened like that.
That is assuming D4C can do some kind of soul fuckery stuff but like i said above all he does is punching.
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I'm not really arguing who would win, just correcting misconceptions about Toaru side of things.
- 123
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Dosent D4C allows Funny summons his alternate version? Is his alternate version is supranatural being or not?
Also, Funny usually use gun for fight right? If so, that alone makes Funny had more advantage against Touma regardless he will use his stand or not. Not to mention he is former American soldiers which means he had more experience in CQC battle.
Also, Funny usually use gun for fight right? If so, that alone makes Funny had more advantage against Touma regardless he will use his stand or not. Not to mention he is former American soldiers which means he had more experience in CQC battle.
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
Tier 10-A ap and he only used the gun against Jhonny when he had no options left and was half dead and the other version might qualify as supernatural since in index multiple universes don't exist
- 123
- 10
I think the other self is considered as natural as long as its not supranatural being. It shown in NT20 during Crowley hazard. IB didnt affect one of Crowley hazard (I think the tentacles monster one). Probably because its body structure is considered natural in current toaru world.
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
Crowley hazard aren't from different universes though
- 2,500
- 1,248
What about Touma's precog?
- 8,094
- 9,087
I think the FVs from another dimension would be natural beings brought in by supernatural means, kinda like teleportation with extra range. (Unless multiverse theory is considered wrong in to aru or Touma has nulled something similar).
At worst he might nullify their ability to not become merger sponges with the original funny if he touches them, but that power happens mostly because of D4C, so idk.
At worst he might nullify their ability to not become merger sponges with the original funny if he touches them, but that power happens mostly because of D4C, so idk.
- 8,094
- 9,087
now that i think about, if Touma can make them get merger sponged with eachother that's a decent way of dealing with clone spam swarms, since he could incap them by pushing them on each other. I say decent because their lifting strength shouldn't be that different and trying to push a clone into another should make him more vulnerable to being hit while doing it.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
If he know that he cannot summon his Stand or Love Train then he will his gun instead. As for D4C merge sponges, Eficiente have tackles this problem few times and i'll quotes him from this thread:
- Bring a second Touma is not an easy process, he needed to trick the other versions of Diego (the first time), Wekapipo, Hotpants and Diego (the second time) to bring them to another universe, and they all wanna to kill him.
- Valentine can't bring a Touma that's just a normal human nor that's how infinite multiverses works. It needs to be stated that that's how the multiverse works for the latter to be the case, and Valentine never did anything like that before, if he was able to do that he would be a moron for not doing that always. Valentine specifically never found his father in any universe and had a hard time looking for a living Diego (also he wasn't looking for a Diego with The World, only one alive, that Diego just so happens to have that Stand as far as we know). Heck how would Valentine even know that the other Touma is a normal human?
- Valentine would definitely start with H2H, and be creative after that doesn't work.
- 5,234
- 2,733
- Thread starter
- #59
Bump
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
So to summarize this matches up:
Valentine would go H2H from the start which got his Stand nulled, then Touma try to punch him but wasn't effective. Valentine got confused for a moment but he quickly snapped then pull his gun out to shoot Touma.
All in all, this is a mismatches either way because Touma got no way to harm Valentine.
Valentine would go H2H from the start which got his Stand nulled, then Touma try to punch him but wasn't effective. Valentine got confused for a moment but he quickly snapped then pull his gun out to shoot Touma.
All in all, this is a mismatches either way because Touma got no way to harm Valentine.
- 174
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So you are just going to ignore what IB actually does to modified life force. Okay then.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
I have already give my explanation for that above and nobody haven't argue back yet.
So what about it? Touma cannot physically harm Valentine in the end.
- 615
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Vanlentine dura is 8-C
- 615
- 325
I’m still on the side that if D4C got negged Valentine also died btw
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I'm pretty sure I did argue with the main point of that explanation.
- 2,500
- 1,248
Same, the way that IB's negation works would mean that it gets rid of anything not apart of the pure world which I doubt would be the same as just turning off Valentine's stand therefore stand damage transfer would just kill Funny
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
Just to make sure, i will summarize my point of this thread:
First of all the main properties of IB is to nullify supernatural things, in some cases Touma can use it to damage supernatural creature but not this one, why so you ask? Because Valentine is a normal person with super power and we've seen that normal people don't get killed by simply touching his hand or anything.
Secondly, the point about IB can somehow turn Valentine into gore by touching his Stand are nonsensical. It would be the case if D4C have some kind of soul fuckery stuff but he don't, literally the only thing D4C did was punching him. At best IB can reflect the forces of the punch back to him but Jojo character can take those kind of damage fine.
Thirdly, the whole thing about IB removing anything not apart of the pure world have proven my point because when Stand got nulled the rule won't even exist in the first place and Valentine souls are just fine.
First of all the main properties of IB is to nullify supernatural things, in some cases Touma can use it to damage supernatural creature but not this one, why so you ask? Because Valentine is a normal person with super power and we've seen that normal people don't get killed by simply touching his hand or anything.
Secondly, the point about IB can somehow turn Valentine into gore by touching his Stand are nonsensical. It would be the case if D4C have some kind of soul fuckery stuff but he don't, literally the only thing D4C did was punching him. At best IB can reflect the forces of the punch back to him but Jojo character can take those kind of damage fine.
Thirdly, the whole thing about IB removing anything not apart of the pure world have proven my point because when Stand got nulled the rule won't even exist in the first place and Valentine souls are just fine.
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If this is the talk about his other dimensional selfs, sure.
Erm, imagine Breaker literally starts to negate modified life force as soon as it starts swirling in the wrong way, you don't even need to form a spell from it (GT2):
And I can't think of any way more wrong for this energy to circulate than doing it outside of the body. And if Stand is just "manifestation" of the soul, whatever that means, it's even more clear.
About the gore explosion - I've already explained that. Imagine Breaker doesn't have infinite speed of negation, unlike, as far as I can tell by the point I'm in JoJo (which can be wrong, feel free to correct me), the damage sharing between the Stand and its master. So, unless, like, Touma grabs literally the "point" where the two are connected, the recoil is going to hit Funny. And because this is not some minor physical injury inflicted on the Stand, but rather forceful complex reshaping back to what IB considers to be normal for a soul (although if it's really only manifestation or whatever, then yeah, outright destruction will occur), it will be... unpleasant to the user.
That's what phases do, not Imagine Breaker. Otherwise right hand would be able to reconstruct things physically destroyed by supernatural phenomena.
And again, I'm not arguing who would win this (I'm not even on the part 5 of JoJo as of yet), only correcting misconceptions.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
By the phrase "reshaping back to what IB considers to be normal" isn't really cut out, as far it make sense for you the worst thing happened to Valentine would be him unable to summon his Stand.
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We can thank Kamachi for being really stingy with concrete details on how Touma's powerset works.
And if this way to win fails, then the whole match is a stomp for the President.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
Honestly this matches got derail longer than it should be. As i said before, i have zero knowledge on Toaru so i have gone with the profile and provided examples. However, literally most of them were pointed IB as Power Null and nothing else, even the video example only proven that he could recoil an attack back to it user to some degree and it wasn't how its function work. The fact that Touma can somehow make Valentine explode into gore by just touching his Stand make me feel like IB are being exaggerated here.
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
Not really angles like Gabriel are afraid of touching imagine breaker even while they are in an human body and also kazakiri who is an artificial angle is afraid for same reasons.
Jamesthetaker
He/Him- 6,802
- 1,878
That is different from Valentine case, he isn't some kind of artificial life form or anything. He is almost similar to most Espers or Magic users in Toaru.
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
No esper or mage projects a manifestation of their soul in outside world and Gabriel's example (Gabriel was in an human host) proves a soul not in harmony with the world will get erased which will simultaneously affect valentine because damage transfer
Rez
He/Him- 4,830
- 1,967
The said artificial parasite was made from kakine's dark matter
