Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I think tge whole size argument is coming from a misunderstanding. If I'm not mistaken,

You need to prove that universes in the multiverse are infinitesimal To qualify said space for 5D.

Not prove a "space" is infinitely larger than the multiverse. Which is just 1x above baseline 2-A in a scaling chain.

Edit: I haven't read much of anything here yet.

Wouldn't being infinitely larger make the other space seem infinitesimal in comparison?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

if the demon world and the human world are separated by a dimensional wall, why are you saying that they're the same place...

They were created together. Pluto did some weird shit which separated them. I don't think it was to Sparda's point though. Mundus wanted to reclaim humanities world and Sparda stopped him and sealed the different realms. Don't see why DW would be anything beyond a simply infinite space compared to the finite space that is the HW with also some more weird shenangans.

i love how you're trying to reduce hardcore evidence with these questions

if the demon world has different laws from the human world how can they possible be the same place?? wtf??

What do you mean how can they be the same place? They literally were created together. Trees growing underground means nothing and time is fluid in parts of the demon world which isn't exactly helpful for much. Even if the worlds operate under different laws that's mostly due to the darkness of the DW changing reality while the HW is mostly free of that. Like it's stated that they were the same place and just separated no idea why you even try to contest that. Whatever diverges exist between them I have no idea how they would affect a very simple statement such as that.

 

[Robo432343]

What do you mean how can they be the same place? They literally were created together. Trees growing underground means nothing and time is fluid in parts of the demon world which isn't exactly helpful for much. Even if the worlds operate under different laws that's mostly due to the darkness of the DW changing reality while the HW is mostly free of that. Like it's stated that they were the same place and just separated no idea why you even try to contest that. Whatever diverges exist between them I have no idea how they would affect a very simple statement such as that.

yeah i agree that they are the same place and were then separated...but you're saying that the dw and the hw are the same place even after both realms got split...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay I'm probably gonna make this a staff thread since this conversation is going absolutely nowhere. I don't want this thread to be stuck in a circle of pointless bickering.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

yeah i agree that they are the same place and were then separated...but you're saying that the dw and the hw are the same place even after both realms got split...

No now they are not the same. What I'm saying is that they are pretty much the same dimensionality with the DW being an infinite space compared to the HW's finite space. They would be 2-C due to that if I'm understanding things right.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Okay I'm probably gonna make this a staff thread since this conversation is going absolutely nowhere. I don't want this thread to be stuck in a circle of pointless bickering.

Heyyy I think my points were quite well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean I don't think the points were super relevant to begin with, sorry.

Anyways, I would appreciate it if any staff here could move the thread to staff discussion (Serlock and a few DMC supporters can still comment ofc).

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I mean I don't think the points were super relevant to begin with, sorry.

"Cries in a corner"

Anyways, I would appreciate it if any staff here could move the thread to staff discussion (Serlock and a few DMC supporters can still comment ofc).

I think we need special permit to comment and I don't know what I have to offer beyond the stuff I have said here.

 

[Lonkitt]

From what I understand, the Devil May Cry Cosmology has had a lot of debates regarding its size

I'd like to hear the main arguments from both sides before I consider making a decision

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

From what I understand, the Devil May Cry Cosmology has had a lot of debates regarding its side

I'd like to hear the main arguments from both sides before I consider making a decision

Well, most info in my side is in the OP, but here's a quick rundown:

1. The Demon World is an infinitely large space that sees the Human World, a place with finite space, as infinitely small. This is the main evidence for Low 1-C.
2. The Mirror World, which reflects the human world, lacks strong evidence of being a low 2-C structure. Furthermore, it is not embedded within the Demon World, as travel from the Mirror World to the Demon World requires the use of a portal, and both Ultima and DT have stated in other threads that containing a low 2-C structure is not necessarily evidence of low 1-C.
3. The Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World; However, this does not mean it has the qualitative superiority needed for tier 1, as QS is defined as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size". DT has also outright said that being infinitely larger than low 2-C is not good enough for tier 1:

The first response from DMC supporters can be found here, but they can give their own tl;dr if they want.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Wouldn't the HW originally being part of the DW outright negate any kind of superiority and just point to the fact that Demons are just stronger lifeforms? That was my main reason for bringing that up.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

From what I understand, the Devil May Cry Cosmology has had a lot of debates regarding its size

I'd like to hear the main arguments from both sides before I consider making a decision

Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

I would rather not be here. The Original Claims Tier 1 DMC is primarily based upon two statements as showcased in this blog (ignore the first half, as it is outdated), both indicating that the Demon World is qualitatively superior to the Human World. The first stems from the manga, where it is...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wouldn't the HW originally being part of the DW outright negate any kind of superiority and just point to the fact that Demons are just stronger lifeforms? That was my main reason for bringing that up.

No, I disagree with that. It's very much possible to take a 4D slice out of a 5D space (assuming it is 5D, which like. lol).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Wouldn't being infinitely larger make the other space seem infinitesimal in comparison?

According to my knowledge with the wiki tiering system, not exactly. Being infinitesimal is as if it's taking up 0% volume. (When looking at a 5D space)

Being infinitely greater than an already infinite structure is a finite infinity not an uncountably infinite one.

Hopefully that makes sense. I'm typing whole at work.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No, I disagree with that. It's very much possible to take a 4D slice out of a 5D space (assuming it is 5D, which like. lol).

So the whole world would lose a dimensionality and that wouldn't affect the humans at all? It just seems a weird proposition which is stated nowhere that the seal resulted in sth like that. It's a pretty straightforward clean cut between the areas of humans and demons and letting everyone do their own stuff. Nothing more at least from what I have seen.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So the whole world would lose a dimensionality and that wouldn't affect the humans at all? It just seems a weird proposition which is stated nowhere that the seal resulted in sth like that. It's a pretty straightforward clean cut between the areas of humans and demons and letting everyone do their own stuff. Nothing more at least from what I have seen.

I do agree that it's weird, yeah. But I think there are bigger problems regarding there being any sort of difference in dimensionality at all.

Anyways, let's maybe wait for Lonkitt to catch up.

 

[Random-Helper323]

So the whole world would lose a dimensionality and that wouldn't affect the humans at all? It just seems a weird proposition which is stated nowhere that the seal resulted in sth like that. It's a pretty straightforward clean cut between the areas of humans and demons and letting everyone do their own stuff. Nothing more at least from what I have seen.

That isn't exactly how it works, especially not if the human world was already 4D when it was one of the dimensions in the larger demon world.

And technically a 3D human simply has a size of zero on all higher dimensional axes.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That isn't exactly how it works, especially not if the human world was already 4D when it was one of the dimensions in the larger demon world.

And technically a 3D human simply has a size of zero on all higher dimensional axes.

The HW was literally the same as the DW it wasn't some special area. They were created together as opposing concepts of light and darkness. We know humans are weaker. Nothing implies that they are lower dimensional beings.

Also don't understand the 3d human part but are you arguing they would have a different dimensionality than the world that they were created from?

 

[Random-Helper323]

The HW was literally the same as the DW it wasn't some special area. They were created together as opposing concepts of light and darkness.

No they weren't. The manga states that the demon world came first and the human world emerged as a single ray of light in the infinite darkness. Ergo, the human was created a long time after. The demon world contains countless dimensions inside it, one of which is stuck in its own perpetual time loop. So we know that the demon world is full of smaller spaces, at least some of which have their own space time, and this is consistent with the demon world having a highly irregular space time.

Also don't understand the 3d human part but are you arguing they would have a different dimensionality than the world that they were created from?

A stick figure is technically created from the real world. A 2D creation, created in a 3D space, arguably a 4D dimension. It's the reverse that's impossible; you can't create a 5D being with 4D means. You can however make a 2D creation with 3D or 4D means.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The demon world contains countless dimensions inside it, one of which is stuck in its own perpetual time loop. So we know that the demon world is full of smaller spaces, at least some of which have their own space time, and this is consistent with the demon world having a highly irregular space time.

Okay this is like the 50th time I've seen this claim, does anyone have even a single scan backing it up lol

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I get limited time in day to even look at this thread. The moment I see peanut gallery I lose all patience to comment. I'd rather work or watch YT shorts than this.

Fuji post your latest arguements for me please.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay this is like the 50th time I've seen this claim, does anyone have even a single scan backing it up lol

Which claim? The smaller dimensions, the irregular space time or the dimension with the time loop?

The time loop happens in DMC3. I would have to replay the whole game to get that scan though. I'm pretty sure the item used to escape it is stated to represent the space time continuum too. It would be nice if someone else already had it.

The irregular space time is shown in DMC1 and DMC2. Scans are already available.

If you're asking about the demon world containing smaller dimensions at all, literally just play any DMC game.

I have to ask, you said earlier you're only aiming for a downgrade to 2-C, but now you're questioning the dimensions merging, and have suggested Mundus' dimension is small. Which feats do you consider solid proof of 2-C?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No they weren't. The manga states that the demon world came first and the human world emerged as a single ray of light in the infinite darkness. Ergo, the human was created a long time after. The demon world contains countless dimensions inside it, one of which is stuck in its own perpetual time loop. So we know that the demon world is full of smaller spaces, at least some of which have their own space time, and this is consistent with the demon world having a highly irregular space time.

https://v6.mkklcdnv6tempv3.com/img/tab_6/00/83/56/fe959713/vol_1_chapter_1/5-o.jpg

Where does it say that the human world was created after?
"Endless darkness a container of chaos, but even in such a world there was a line of light." Meant that the light preexisted already like the darkness was. A

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Which claim? The smaller dimensions, the irregular space time or the dimension with the time loop?

The time loop happens in DMC3. I would have to replay the whole game to get that scan though. I'm pretty sure the item used to escape it is stated to represent the space time continuum too. It would be nice if someone else already had it.

The irregular space time is shown in DMC1 and DMC2. Scans are already available.

If you're asking about the demon world containing smaller dimensions at all, literally just play any DMC game.

I have to ask, you said earlier you're only aiming for a downgrade to 2-C, but now you're questioning the dimensions merging, and have suggested Mundus' dimension is small. Which feats do you consider solid proof of 2-C?

Ngl I don't think "just play the game" is a fair response. Also, a realm having pockets of distorted space-time isn't really proof that it has entire low 2-C realms embedded inside of it.

As for 2-C, I... don't remember questioning the realm merging? If both realms are low 2-C, then there shouldn't be a problem there. Mundus' dimension thing was only low 2-C iirc, and of course there's still Pluto splitting the cosmology in two to create the HW and DW. So yknow, at least 2 very solid feats in my eyes.

I get limited time in day to even look at this thread. The moment I see peanut gallery I lose all patience to comment. I'd rather work or watch YT shorts than this.

Fuji post your latest arguements for me please.

The tl;dr I gave to Lonkitt earlier:
1. The Demon World is an infinitely large space that sees the Human World, a place with finite space, as infinitely small. This is the main evidence for Low 1-C.
2. The Mirror World, which reflects the human world, lacks strong evidence of being a low 2-C structure. Furthermore, it is not embedded within the Demon World, as travel from the Mirror World to the Demon World requires the use of a portal, and both Ultima and DT have stated in other threads that containing a low 2-C structure is not necessarily evidence of low 1-C.
3. The Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World; However, this does not mean it has the qualitative superiority needed for tier 1, as QS is defined as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size". DT has also outright said that being infinitely larger than low 2-C is not good enough for tier 1.

Honestly you didn't miss a whole lot, 99% of this thread has been "an infinite size difference isn't enough for low 1-C because both the tiering FAQ and multiple knowledgeable staff say it isn't enough" vs "nuh uh". Nobody's debunked the former yet, so we're kind of at an impasse.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Cool, thanks.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

https://v6.mkklcdnv6tempv3.com/img/tab_6/00/83/56/fe959713/vol_1_chapter_1/5-o.jpg

Where does it say that the human world was created after?
"Endless darkness a container of chaos, but even in such a world there was a line of light." Meant that the light preexisted already like the darkness was. A

Lol, lmao even

The world was born from darkness

Here too

果てなき闇　混沌の坩堝
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し、
やがて世界は二つに分かれた
闇の世は魔界
光の世は人界
二つの世界は共にあり続けた 長い永い間
Raws:
Endless darkness, a crucible of chaos.
But then a ray of light shone in the world.
Eventually, the world was divided into two.
The world of darkness is the demon world.
The world of light is the world of man.
For a long, long time, the two worlds lived together.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Tony you disappoint me.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"just play the game" is such a counterproductive response. You're suppose to present the information/scans that supports your claim instead of just telling someone to dig through everything themselves.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Tony you disappoint me.

He has been saying the same dumb thing for like 20 posts now, it was getting to me >:v

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Lol, lmao even

The world was born from darkness

Here too

果てなき闇　混沌の坩堝
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し、
やがて世界は二つに分かれた
闇の世は魔界
光の世は人界
二つの世界は共にあり続けた 長い永い間
Raws:
Endless darkness, a crucible of chaos.
But then a ray of light shone in the world.
Eventually, the world was divided into two.
The world of darkness is the demon world.
The world of light is the world of man.
For a long, long time, the two worlds lived together.

your links are broken

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Lol, lmao even

The world was born from darkness

Here too

果てなき闇　混沌の坩堝
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し、
やがて世界は二つに分かれた
闇の世は魔界
光の世は人界
二つの世界は共にあり続けた 長い永い間
Raws:
Endless darkness, a crucible of chaos.
But then a ray of light shone in the world.
Eventually, the world was divided into two.
The world of darkness is the demon world.
The world of light is the world of man.
For a long, long time, the two worlds lived together.

That wasn't the translation of the image I saw but fair enough it's probably wrong then.

Was the ray of light someone's or just a cosmogonic event? If it was a cosmogonic event are demons stated before or was it just amorphous darkness and after the light both life forms were created?

 

[Random-Helper323]

"just play the game" is such a counterproductive response. You're suppose to present the information/scans that supports your claim instead of just telling someone to dig through everything themselves.

Because it happens over and over again in DMC1, DMC2, DMC3 and DMC4.

And I thought the time loop was more important, given we're discussing dimensionality.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

"just play the game" is such a counterproductive response. You're suppose to present the information/scans that supports your claim instead of just telling someone to dig through everything themselves.

just play the game

 

[Random-Helper323]

Anyway, let's all shut up and wait for Gilver's response. He's got a point calling the wall of messages the peanut gallery.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That wasn't the translation of the image I saw but fair enough it's probably wrong then.

Both the official and devil's lair are wrong on certain parts, we know which because we have everything

Was the ray of light someone's or just a cosmogonic event? If it was a cosmogonic event are demons stated before or was it just amorphous darkness and after the light both life forms were created?

The ray of light is the human world coming to existence, its literally the first scan I posted "the world was born from darkness"

Idk what you mean by the rest of that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Both the official and devil's lair are wrong on certain parts, we know which because we have everything

The ray of light is the human world coming to existence, its literally the first scan I posted "the world was born from darkness"

Idk what you mean by the rest of that.

I didn't know if the light was the creation of both races or just the humans. Still don't understand on why the humans would be lower existences than demons and not just you know...weaker existences but we would be going in circles again. I do understand though that the world of demons came first and for some reason humans came after.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I didn't know if the light was the creation of both races or just the humans. Still don't understand on why the humans would be lower existences than demons and not just you know...weaker existences but we would be going in circles again. I do understand though that the world of demons came first and for some reason humans came after.

First, as of now we aren't claiming the demons are higher dimensional or higher existences than humans yet, just that from their perspective both humans and their realm are pretty much insignificant as they come from the actual higher real being this the demon world.

Second, the scans are from demons souls not their physical forms as they are some abstract shit that makes their form based on the name (later is when poc clarified it was actually the soul and not the name but since we aren't using poc, name it is), not their physical existence as they pretty much can't go to the human world thanks to Sparda seal.

Finally every race in DMC was created by the primordial darkness (demons spawned from the demon world, the world of humans and thus humans were created by the demon world, the gods that were killed in the ancient war by demons were created there too)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

First, as of now we aren't claiming the demons are higher dimensional or higher existences than humans yet, just that from their perspective both humans and their realm are pretty much insignificant as they come from the actual higher real being this the demon world.

You do realize that this is most likely just about the difference in power, right? I see flies as insignificant, not because I reside in a higher-dimensional plane of existence, but because I can kill them with minimal effort.

Anyways please god let's just wait until Lonkitt or Gilver responds, won't hesitate to get this thread moved if yall won't shut up for a couple minutes.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah watching someone as insignificant doesn't require an infinite amount of difference. But well keep on with the thread.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You do realize that this is most likely just about the difference in power, right? I see flies as insignificant, not because I reside in a higher-dimensional plane of existence, but because I can kill them with minimal effort.

Anyways please god let's just wait until Lonkitt or Gilver responds, won't hesitate to get this thread moved if yall won't shut up for a couple minutes.

Damn, didn't know the universe was as insignificant as flies to you.