From Moonrise to Moonset Quarterfinals, Match 1: Byleth vs Knight Leader

[Naito-desu]

MATCH CONDITIONS:

• The match takes place in Windsor Castle, in the inner courtyard of the upper ward
• Starting distance is 10 meters
• Characters will be given only partial knowledge of all their opponent's abilities, particularly any dangerous abilities or immortalities
• Characters will be given their standard equipment
• Characters are allowed to change their strategy with their limited knowledge of their opponent's abilities and match conditions
• The fight will be given a timer of 12 hours to conclude.
• Victory is achieved under what is defined by SBA, with the addendum that characters lose when they remain immobilized, incapacitated, removed from the battlefield, or killed when the timer ends
  • Any characters that are projected to fight past 12 hours will be subject to "Sudden Death" where any immobilization, incapacitation, removal from the battlefield or death will only need to last 10 seconds before a victor is declared
  • Physical pinning is allowed, but the character must be pinned in such a way that they cannot harm the person pinning them
  • To clarify, a tournament victory only requires that the opponent remain immobilized, incapacitated, removed from the battlefield, or killed when the timer ends or for ten seconds during Sudden Death. Meaning that a character could lose a match under conventional VSThread rules but win the tournament match
• The match will be allowed to continue as normal after the tournament-mandated timer ends for purposes of adding to the profile
• Any further accommodations for unique abilities will be decided as the tournament gathers more participants
• In tandem with the above, rules will be adjusted accordingly as well

Byleth (409 gigatons), Fused with Sothis Key vs Knight Leader (247.44 gigatons)

 

[DontTalkDT]

KL can probably kill Byleth the first time before she adjusts to getting her weapons nulled.
Afterwards, it gets harder, but with the movement speed pattern and either cutting, weight or accuracy for extra damage he should be able to manage pretty well.

 

[XDragnoir]

Is it just me or the scaling in KL's profile is strange af?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Following!

So first off... Both of them upscale from their AP Value, so any power gap between them is extremely minor to non-existent. LS is... idk, I'll give it to Byleth, for no other reason than the fact that his LS is said to be Superhuman. Speed doesn't matter cuz of Speed Equal. And their stamina is probably about equal, if I had to guess...

In skill, Byleth is Byleth, I assume everyone has a decent idea of his skill - KL, on the other hand, is, well... The commander of all Knights in England and is comparable to skill to Acqua of The Back/William Orwell (an expert fighter and a veteran mercenary whose instincts bordering on precognition) and Kanzaki Kaori (an experienced swordswoman (+ magician) who is skilled in her own right). Although, I am willing to bet that Byleth is the more skilled of the two, but KL is no slouch himself.

As for Hax... we already know about Byleth's, so let's talk about Knigh Leader, since I didn't get to talk about 'em in his last match. KL's main hax here is his Thororm spell, which turns the offensive value of weapons to zero. I.E, in old F.E game terms, it is if a low-strength thief tries to hit a high-defense general - no damage will be dealt, and this effect lasts for 10 mins. Granted, I am 50% sure that Byleth's magic attacks won't be affected nor his fists, and Byleth has decent skill in those fields. Plus, plus, with Naito's rules, Byleth probs has prior info about KL's Thorom spell and can plan accordingly.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Is it just me or the scaling in KL's profile is strange af?

Just you.

Speed doesn't matter cuz of Speed Equal.

Unless KL uses speed pattern, cause speed boosts work in speed equal and all that.

That's definitely one of KLs biggest advantages.

Edit: Btw. what does Byleth have in terms of skill? no idea what she has.

 

[TheGatememer]

Skill-wise, massively upscales from herself at the beginning of the game.

Tl;dr version, Dominated a mercenary (Shez) before the events of the game even took place. Said mercenary has been a mercenary their whole life, and has worked for countless different mercenary companies, picking up different styles and techniques, and making their own unique fighting style that even seasoned fighters struggle to keep up with. They were also able to defeat the combined forces of all Three Houses, which easily comprises of over 100 students, without too much difficulty. Those students includes people like Dimitri, who was able to put down a rebellion at 15 years old, which comprises of soldiers who were taught to fight since they were children.

She also is stated to be above her father, a former knight captain with 300 years of combat experience.

 

[XDragnoir]

AP wise, how much does Byleth scale from the 409 feat? KL without Hrunting or Pattern Magic could casually block a 247 attack so the gap may be even less useful here than it was against Kazakiri.

 

[TheGatememer]

2 x 409 Gigaton attacks = Weakened Immaculate One <<< Normal Immaculate One < 2nd Form Immaculate One < 3rd Form Immaculate One

Byleth should be comparable to the 3rd Form Immaculate One

 

[XDragnoir]

Wait, 2x 409 attacks? As in, 818 AP or does the 2x mean something else?

 

[TheGatememer]

As in surviving two 409 attacks simultaneously, but I guess it could technically also be 818 AP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Skill-wise, massively upscales from herself at the beginning of the game.

Tl;dr version, Dominated a mercenary (Shez) before the events of the game even took place. Said mercenary has been a mercenary their whole life, and has worked for countless different mercenary companies, picking up different styles and techniques, and making their own unique fighting style that even seasoned fighters struggle to keep up with. They were also able to defeat the combined forces of all Three Houses, which easily comprises of over 100 students, without too much difficulty. Those students includes people like Dimitri, who was able to put down a rebellion at 15 years old, which comprises of soldiers who were taught to fight since they were children.

She also is stated to be above her father, a former knight captain with 300 years of combat experience.

Doesn't sound like much of a skill gap.

Like, the mercenary stuff? KL is the greatest knight in the UK. He just as much upscales from the average professional whole-life fighter. Also fights Acqua who is likewise a renowned mercenary, that specialized into taking down enemy strongholds singlehandedly and for example destroyed the Knights of Orléans.

And every run of the mill magician has their own unique techniques. Heck, the entrance exam to Necessarius has fun stuff like getting dropped into a sunken submarine on the ocean floor together with a bomb and having to escape to the surface before it explodes. Another one is to run through an underground labyrinth and mapping it out while avoiding the lethal traps. Stuff like that is the standard for a professional magician and in the power balance of the UK the knights are supposed to be at least equal.

In the past, the Knights used named like "7th_Macer" and "5th_Axer", but those names were abandoned seven years before the start of the series, not because the current Knights had lost their original expertise, but because they had mastered every technique. And that are just the average Knights.

I don't give a lot on "300 years of combat experience", since stuff like that is mostly just age. Experience peaks. More or less. A month vs a decade makes a big difference, but whether you fought 30 or 60 years probably not very much.
If it came to it, St. Germain and Gabriel are also ancient, but in terms of skill they don't actually stand out in Index.

AP wise, how much does Byleth scale from the 409 feat? KL without Hrunting or Pattern Magic could casually block a 247 attack so the gap may be even less useful here than it was against Kazakiri.

Tbf Kazakiri shouldn't have any more of a stat gap given that she is definitely stronger than KL in stats.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

This 409 x2 is news to me, lol.

Anyways, Byleth should start with the knowledge that the Sword of The Creator will be heavily nerfed, so she would likely start the fight with Brawling tactics instead, a skill she is also already naturally talented in, in addition to Swordsmanship.

 

[XDragnoir]

Tbf Kazakiri shouldn't have any more of a stat gap given that she is definitely stronger than KL in stats.

Ehhhh

I guess we can discuss that when the CRT for the scaling chain drops, but Kazakiri and Yuisen both scale to Gabriel so they're around the same level while KL casually dealt with Yuisen.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Byleth has the Lifting Strength Advantage, and though not by much, it still is something to consider if she get's up close. The wiki considers KL to be High Intellect, while Byleth is a Genius. Byleth has Acrobatics, which KL does not, and her Enhanced Senses, Magic's, and various Buff's for herself and Debuff's for KL have seemingly no answer on his profile. As far as I can tell, KL is basically just a Skill test to see if his opponent can fight without a Weapon, and Byleth certainly passes that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ehhhh

I guess we can discuss that when the CRT for the scaling chain drops, but Kazakiri and Yuisen both scale to Gabriel so they're around the same level while KL casually dealt with Yuisen.

Can agree with around the same level. You will need to do some convincing for angel-powered people to be above angels, though.

This 409 x2 is news to me, lol.

Anyways, Byleth should start with the knowledge that the Sword of The Creator will be heavily nerfed, so she would likely start the fight with Brawling tactics instead, a skill she is also already naturally talented in, in addition to Swordsmanship.

Is she as skilled in it as in swordsmanship?
In brawling she will have a significant disadvantage in any case, cause the sword has higher reach than her arms. KL is skilled enough to take great advantage of that.
Heck, he could use his attack range pattern to completely prevent her from reaching him with brawling. (or LS)

various Buff's for herself and Debuff's for KL have seemingly no answer on his profile. As far as I can tell, KL is basically just a Skill test to see if his opponent can fight without a Weapon, and Byleth certainly passes that.

You (and everyone else for some reason) are ignoring the part where KL has a speed-boosting technique which lets him outspeed an opponent's kinetic vision. He can basically blitz her.

 

[XDragnoir]

Can agree with around the same level. You will need to do some convincing for angel-powered people to be above angels, though.

Kazakiri is an artificial angel, Gabriel was an incomplete summon during both Angel Fall and WW3 so none of them have True Angel level power, Curtana and KL get their power from a portion of the real deal.

 

[TheGatememer]

Jeralt (Byleth's father) is considered to be the greatest knight in the history of the Knights of Seiros, who themselves are stated to be the greatest knights in the entire continent. Taking down enemy strongholds by themselves is something Byleth has also done with ease.

Of course everyone has their own techniques. Shez on the other hand uses the techniques and fighting styles of all the different mercenary companies they have worked for, merging it into one unique style of fighting. Most knights have also enrolled in the Officer's Academy prior to becoming knights. And while missions there can vary, they have included, but aren't limited to: suppressing rebellions fought by soldiers who have been trained since childhood, fending off foreign invasions, navigating through secret underground tunnels with traps fighting enemies all while trying to save hostages on time, retrieving stolen relics that can kill thousands of soldiers in a single attack, etc.

Technically her sword is a body part so nulling it will have no effect
Byleth has more options to choose from if she loses her sword. She is skilled in CC, and has a dagger. But more importantly, she still has magical spells. TDF also only works against one weapon at a time, so Byleth could just pull out another sword.

Movement Speed is going to be difficult to deal with. But Byleth has dealt with many Swordmasters, who all know Astra, which is a technique that allows users to attack the opponent five times before they can react. So I wouldn't say MS is something that she can't deal with, especially if we consider her skills that increase dodge rate, speed, her enhanced senses, self-healing, higher dura, and the fact that she can Timestop, and rewind time.

Also, does KL lead with a certain pattern?

 

[XDragnoir]

Of course everyone has their own techniques. Shez on the other hand uses the techniques and fighting styles of all the different mercenary companies they have worked for, merging it into one unique style of fighting. Most knights have also enrolled in the Officer's Academy prior to becoming knights. And while missions there can vary, they have included, but aren't limited to: suppressing rebellions fought by soldiers who have been trained since childhood, fending off foreign invasions, navigating through secret underground tunnels with traps fighting enemies all while trying to save hostages on time, retrieving stolen relics that can kill thousands of soldiers in a single attack, etc.

Most of what you said here is either useless or KL has similar feats (like the Necessarius training DT explained above).

Technically her sword is a body part so nulling it will have no effect
Byleth has more options to choose from if she loses her sword. She is skilled in CC, and has a dagger. But more importantly, she still has magical spells. TDF also only works against one weapon at a time, so Byleth could just pull out another sword.

It isn't limited to one weapon at a time, it's limited to one type of weapon at a time.

Movement Speed is going to be difficult to deal with. But Byleth has dealt with many Swordmasters, who all know Astra, which is a technique that allows users to attack the opponent five times before they can react. So I wouldn't say MS is something that she can't deal with, especially if we consider her skills that increase dodge rate, speed, her enhanced senses, self-healing, higher dura, and the fact that she can Timestop, and rewind time.

How exactly did she deal with them? Also, Time hax is the only thing you listed KL doesn't have a counter.

Also, does KL lead with a certain pattern?

Not really, he spammed Attack Range at the start of his fight with Acqua after a certain point, but even before the power was explained it's implied he had been using the non-obvious patterns in their fight.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Keep in mind that said Timestop isn't something applicable to battle in the same way most would think- She doesn't move during the time stop, only use it to properly asertain where to rewind time. Basically, she has all the time in the world to figure out when would be most advantageous to go back to.

Is she as skilled in it as in swordsmanship?
In brawling she will have a significant disadvantage in any case, cause the sword has higher reach than her arms. KL is skilled enough to take great advantage of that.
Heck, he could use his attack range pattern to completely prevent her from reaching him with brawling. (or LS)

Not as skilled, but it's really not a large enough gap to be too big of a advantage/disadvantage

Byleth's brawling can get past numerous kinds of enemies that use Sword's and other weapons, character's like Edelgard and other House Members can be fought using a Brawling Focused Byleth and be deafeated (Though it is more so canon that she uses the Sword of The Creator, at least Post TS), and seeing Byleth's numerous battles, her Strategic genius, and her general Intellect, It's not hard to think she can fight against a Swordsman, even someone such as KL, and not be at a disadvantage.

And worst case scenario, she can bombard him with Lightning and Fire Magic's from a distance if for some reason her Brawling can't keep up with his Swordsmanship.

 

[TheGatememer]

Keep in mind that said Timestop isn't something applicable to battle in the same way most would think- She doesn't move during the time stop, only use it to properly asertain where to rewind time. Basically, she has all the time in the world to figure out when would be most advantageous to go back to.

Until the three hopes CRT, where she can freely timestop her enemies, but yea

 

[XDragnoir]

And worst case scenario, she can bombard him with Lightning and Fire Magic's from a distance if for some reason her Brawling can't keep up with his Swordsmanship.

Which can be avoided with MS or nulled with Thororm.

 

[TheGatememer]

Unless Thororm can nullify hands, no.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I don't see why his Anti-Weapon magic would consider other Magic as a weapon, but even if he did null it, that would just lead to her pulling out the Sword and screwing him over.

 

[XDragnoir]

Meh, it's true that it's based on an anti-weapon legend but it's explicitly stated to work against both science and magic, so i think it would work against fireballs and things like that.

Also, KL is fast enough to null one and then null the other even without taking his speed amp into account, in his fight with Acqua he was switching the target quite a few times during the final moments.

Unless Thororm can nullify hands, no.

I was talking about the fire and lightning magic, bruh.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Jeralt (Byleth's father) is considered to be the greatest knight in the history of the Knights of Seiros, who themselves are stated to be the greatest knights in the entire continent. Taking down enemy strongholds by themselves is something Byleth has also done with ease.

Of course everyone has their own techniques. Shez on the other hand uses the techniques and fighting styles of all the different mercenary companies they have worked for, merging it into one unique style of fighting. Most knights have also enrolled in the Officer's Academy prior to becoming knights. And while missions there can vary, they have included, but aren't limited to: suppressing rebellions fought by soldiers who have been trained since childhood, fending off foreign invasions, navigating through secret underground tunnels with traps fighting enemies all while trying to save hostages on time, retrieving stolen relics that can kill thousands of soldiers in a single attack, etc.

Nothing of that sounds better than what KL has. Especially if she can't use her favoured weapon type.

And worst case scenario, she can bombard him with Lightning and Fire Magic's from a distance if for some reason her Brawling can't keep up with his Swordsmanship.

Byleth has more options to choose from if she loses her sword. She is skilled in CC, and has a dagger. But more importantly, she still has magical spells.

In which she is less skilled. And KL is also a magician. If she uses magic he will notice and just dodge via movement pattern. In return, she probably can't do anything against the invisible attacks from the ranged pattern that can come from any direction. KL is capable of firing innumerable strikes of that at once.

TDF also only works against one weapon at a time, so Byleth could just pull out another sword.

One weapon type. And even if she pulls out another weapon, KL can switch and null what she is using instead.

Movement Speed is going to be difficult to deal with. But Byleth has dealt with many Swordmasters, who all know Astra, which is a technique that allows users to attack the opponent five times before they can react. So I wouldn't say MS is something that she can't deal with, especially if we consider her skills that increase dodge rate, speed, her enhanced senses, self-healing, higher dura, and the fact that she can Timestop, and rewind time.

By what I remember from FE the average way to deal with Asta is to get hit by it until it's over. I wouldn't call that "deal with it".

There are else the important differences that the Movement Pattern can be used without any particular time limit and can be used defensively.

So I don't think any of what you said solves the problem of her being incapable of hitting, while continuously receiving damage herself.

Not as skilled, but it's really not a large enough gap to be too big of a advantage/disadvantage

Well, I at this point really doubt one can claim her to have a skill advantage.

Byleth's brawling can get past numerous kinds of enemies that use Sword's and other weapons, character's like Edelgard and other House Members can be fought using a Brawling Focused Byleth and be deafeated (Though it is more so canon that she uses the Sword of The Creator, at least Post TS), and seeing Byleth's numerous battles, her Strategic genius, and her general Intellect, It's not hard to think she can fight against a Swordsman, even someone such as KL, and not be at a disadvantage.

And KL can defeat Kanzaki with bare hands, but that doesn't mean using a sword is still better.

And, since you didn't specify any particular method, I suspect that the way Byleth deals with those sword fighter's reach is by them just not abusing it to begin with, but allowing her to close in. I would consider those showings rather inapplicable to this fight in that case.

KL has equally numerous battles. What intelligence is concerned I ask the same as I do in most threads it gets brought up: What can she actually think up to help her? Even a genius can't think up a successful strategy that doesn't exist and I really don't see what she can do against KL advantageous in this scenario.

 

[TheGatememer]

I was talking about the fire and lightning magic, bruh.

Yes. Which comes from her hands, not a weapon.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

following

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes. Which comes from her hands, not a weapon.

That's not the a weakness of Thororm. It can't null the AP of your hands, but if you throw something through them (in this case fire or lightning) that something can be nulled.

Unless her power is q fire punch, in that case you're right, but i am assuming it's a projectile since the original post i was replying to said ot was ranged.

 

[TheGatememer]

Nothing of that sounds better than what KL has. Especially if she can't use her favoured weapon type.

She specializes in both Swords and Magic.

In which she is less skilled. And KL is also a magician. If she uses magic he will notice and just dodge via movement pattern. In return, she probably can't do anything against the invisible attacks from the ranged pattern that can come from any direction. KL is capable of firing innumerable strikes of that at once.

It doesn't look like Hruting's attacks have as much range as Byleth's magic, at least according to the profile, so KL will have to get closer if he wants to pull that off. If KL gets close to Byleth she could blast him away with magic, or unironically JoJo punch him. I'll see if I can get a video of it later, but it looks something like this.

One weapon type. And even if she pulls out another weapon, KL can switch and null what she is using instead.

How is the powernull activated? Is it thought based?

By what I remember from FE the average way to deal with Asta is to get hit by it until it's over. I wouldn't call that "deal with it".

Either that or, well, dodging it.

There are else the important differences that the Movement Pattern can be used without any particular time limit and can be used defensively.

Does he stay in Movement Pattern the entire time? From some of the clips I'm seeing, it looks like KL is constantly changing patterns, and only uses Movement Pattern in short bursts, like when he appeared behind Acqua. Byleth has shown numerous times that they can react to surprise attacks.

So I don't think any of what you said solves the problem of her being incapable of hitting, while continuously receiving damage herself.

• Prior Knowledge
• Skills that increase her speed, and chances of dodging, and hitrate
• Is guaranteed to attack first if she is goes below half health, which also gives her a chance to nullify any counterattacks
• Healing Items, and Healing Focus, which instantly heals half her health
• Higher Dura (Scales to a Third Form Immaculate One, who greatly upscales from 409, if not 818 gigatons)
• Can Timestop to assess her situation if necessary
• Can rewind time 13 times, so she knows how the battle will play out. Byleth can make plenty of mistakes, but KL only has to make one
• Can be like "**** everything in that general direction" with her spells, and do the same with her sword if for whatever reason he decides to not use TDF on the SoTC.

This is all assuming KL stays in Movement Pattern.

And KL can defeat Kanzaki with bare hands, but that doesn't mean using a sword is still better.

And, since you didn't specify any particular method, I suspect that the way Byleth deals with those sword fighter's reach is by them just not abusing it to begin with, but allowing her to close in. I would consider those showings rather inapplicable to this fight in that case.

I'm more so saying that she has witnessed similar techniques, whether it be something like Astra, or characters teleport spamming around her. Movement Speed doesn't seem to be anything she can't deal with.

KL has equally numerous battles. What intelligence is concerned I ask the same as I do in most threads it gets brought up: What can she actually think up to help her? Even a genius can't think up a successful strategy that doesn't exist and I really don't see what she can do against KL advantageous in this scenario.

She already has prior knowledge of his most dangerous abilities, and can rewind time 13 times on top of that. She knows every move that KL is going to make, and has the durability, and healing to be able to withstand his attacks. The question is, how is KL going to deal with someone who knows his every move, has greater range, can reverse time, has great self-healing, and is a lot stronger? The only way I can really see KL dealing with that is if he stays in Movement Speed the entire time, which from what I can tell, isn't in character.

That's not the a weakness of Thororm. It can't null the AP of your hands, but if you throw something through them (in this case fire or lightning) that something can be nulled.

Unless her power is q fire punch, in that case you're right, but i am assuming it's a projectile since the original post i was replying to said ot was ranged.

From what I can see on the profile, it can only be nulled if it's a weapon. Even if it could be nulled, then Byleth either switches to her sword or uses another spell, or better yet, just fire another spell, since from what I'm seeing, he can only null one at a time when it comes to projectiles. KL is going to have to constantly be paying attention to her attacks if he's focused on nulling her attacks, especially considering Byleth can spam them.

If it's not obvious, I'm voting Byleth

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ye, as the guy who got Knight Leader here in this tourney, Gate has already said everything that needed to be said for Byleth's victory... So i'mma vote for Byleth FRA, if nobody minds.

 

[DontTalkDT]

She specializes in both Swords and Magic.

Yeah, but not in fists, which is her close-range option from what others said.

It doesn't look like Hruting's attacks have as much range as Byleth's magic, at least according to the profile, so KL will have to get closer if he wants to pull that off. If KL gets close to Byleth she could blast him away with magic, or unironically JoJo punch him. I'll see if I can get a video of it later, but it looks something like this.

Nice and all. Sadly won't work, because as soon as she starts doing that KL starts moving faster than she can perceive.

How is the powernull activated? Is it thought based?

Yes.

Either that or, well, dodging it.

Which probably is a game mechanics, since... well if they could dodge it, it wouldn't be faster than they can react, now, would it?

Not that dodging one attack would make a difference when she can't hit back.

Does he stay in Movement Pattern the entire time? From some of the clips I'm seeing, it looks like KL is constantly changing patterns, and only uses Movement Pattern in short bursts, like when he appeared behind Acqua. Byleth has shown numerous times that they can react to surprise attacks.

He tends to switch patterns, but nothing stops him from doing the thought-based activation as reaction (Byleth's attacks aren't exactly thought-based instantanous stuff) or adapt during the fight when necessary. Knight Leader isn't stupid either. He will likewise play by his best strategy.

Reacting to a surprise attack isn't the same as reacting to someone too fast for you to even see. He could literally run a circle around her faster than she is physically able to turn around and all that. (KL is also noted to make no sound when he attacks, which helps as well)

• Prior Knowledge
• Skills that increase her speed, and chances of dodging, and hitrate
• Is guaranteed to attack first if she is goes below half health, which also gives her a chance to nullify any counterattacks
• Healing Items, and Healing Focus, which instantly heals half her health
• Higher Dura (Scales to a Third Form Immaculate One, who greatly upscales from 409, if not 818 gigatons)
• Can Timestop to assess her situation if necessary
• Can rewind time 13 times, so she knows how the battle will play out. Byleth can make plenty of mistakes, but KL only has to make one
• Can be like "**** everything in that general direction" with her spells, and do the same with her sword if for whatever reason he decides to not use TDF on the SoTC.

Prior knowledge (which KL also has) doesn't help hit a faster opponent. Much less a so tremendously faster one.

Unless those skills that increase speed and stuff have shown to be comparable to such a big speed increase they are not enough.

Healing is nice, but doesn't solve the fundamental problem that KL can turn this into a very onesided fight via his speed. It will just delay in inevitable. Not to mention that a good hit with the accuracy pattern will still likely cause rather lethal harm.

The x2 stuff for 818 is not how that works and never accepted. So she upscales from 400 tons and he can casually catch a blade from someone vastly above 240 tons with one hand. And that's without the boosts of his sword, which enhances him further even without the patterns. With the cutting pattern even a priorly equal opponent had to give up on trying to block his strike. So the durability advantage really isn't that noteworthy. Especially as, again, with the speed this is very onesided.

This is all assuming KL stays in Movement Pattern.

As said, KL isn't stupid. Just as Bayleth can be assumed to not continue to sword fight with her nulled blade, KL can be assumed to fight in the forms that work best.

I'm more so saying that she has witnessed similar techniques, whether it be something like Astra, or characters teleport spamming around her. Movement Speed doesn't seem to be anything she can't deal with.

It's about the amount of movement speed. And you have yet to show me her "dealing with" such a large speed advantage in a better way than eating the attacks and hoping that the opponent eventually slows down. Astra and teleportation is just not comparable to a character that can continuously move at faster than she can see.

She already has prior knowledge of his most dangerous abilities, and can rewind time 13 times on top of that.

KL also has knowledge of her abilities, so they are equal in that. The time rewinds are nice, but fundamentally don't solve anything.

She knows every move that KL is going to make

No she doesn't. She knew which moves he did the last rewind maybe, but the details are going to change the moment she does something different. Maybe she can defend against one sword strike that she priorly didn't, but that doesn't help. The next sword strike will be different than in the prior iteration and she can hence not predict it.

and has the durability, and healing to be able to withstand his attacks.

Some of his attacks. He as well btw. He won't just go down in one hit either. Thing is he lands vastly more hits. Be it via movement speed pattern or by the occasional innumerable attack range attacks in between (which she also can't do much against other than tank). Needing 3 times as many attacks to go down is useless if the opponent lands 20 time as many hits.

The question is, how is KL going to deal with someone who knows his every move, has greater range, can reverse time, has great self-healing, and is a lot stronger? The only way I can really see KL dealing with that is if he stays in Movement Speed the entire time, which from what I can tell, isn't in character.

Saying KL won't abuse movement pattern because it isn't "in character" is like saying Bayleth won't decide to not fight with the sword because in character she fights with the sword. Just as Bayleth can adapt to knowledge so can KL. He also has prior knowledge of Bayleth and will come up with reasonable measures against them. Using the movement pattern doesn't need genius intelligence.

And he doesn't need it the entire time anyway. He can switch it up, because, again, Bayleth doesn't know every move in advance. She just had a few prior tries. He can throw in a surprise pattern change here and there. He can use a time where she is toppled to attack with a cutting power. He can fight her in close combat and then get a few meters distance and fire innumerable invisible ranged attacks from all directions before she realizes she has to switch to ranged combat. Or instantly close in again if she switches to ranged combat.

Heck, talking about prior knowledge KL knows about the time rewinds as well and can reasonably plan countermeasures. He could purposefully somehow decide at random whether to attack from the left, right, front or behind for examples and by that make it unpredictable in a rewind.

---

So let me summarize what I see from the debate to this point as briefly as possible.

Bayleth has no notable skill advantage and then has to fight without the weapons she is most used to.

If Knight Leader uses the ranged attack patterns with omnidirectional invisible cutting power, she basically has no better move than to take the damage and counter attack to make him stop.

If Knight Leader uses the movement pattern, he outspeeds her so much that she basically can only tank the damage and hope that he will eventually switch to a different pattern. She has no technique that actually allows her to land hits while he is doing that or to even defend against it long term.

So in conclusion, Knight Leader has the better cards in his hands and Bayleth's powers can only delay the inevitable.

Hence I vote Knight Leader.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

don't know from my view point her time manip is still great though,she can rewind time and stop time,gonna leaning into byleth

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Here's the problem, has there ever been a fight where Knight Leader would have had a massive advantage if he used his Speed Blitz, but didn't? For some people, it's just in character to change their fighting style. Generally with Player controlled RPG Protagonists, it is assumed that they are highly willing to change their means of combat. With Knight Leader, he is a pre-established character with a pre-established method to approaching combat.

There is also the matter of her Accelerated Development, which would translate to her catching up to him. Combined with her Enhanced Senses, eventually she would start to see his attacks. Soon, she may begin consistently blocking them. It can even eventually get to the point where she's consistently dealing with his attacks, and attacking back with great effectiveness. And at that point, she can step back, heal herself, and then resume the fight, but now keeping up with KL on the speed front. Now, if he tries to switch to any of his other Pattern Magics, he would in theory be the one who get's blitzed, so he would be forced to use the mode, a massive disadvantage.

And if you think Byleth loses before she catches up, between her ability to actually tank the attacks, her healing, and stat amp's, she can survive long enough to start seeing him imo. It would only start to get easier to survive from there. And even if he lands a lethal attack? She has 13 DP's. 13. You say it like she only has a handful, but very rarely are people allowed to make even 5 Mistakes in a fight without losing. Even if it eats up all her DP's, she would now be caught up with the KL, at which point if he tries anything other than to beat her as is, he loses. He tries any of his other Pattern Magics, he get's Speed Blitzed.

At that point, Byleth will have significantly more hax and abilities than KL can really use, and eventually he'll probably lose. Even if he keep's rapidly changing what counts as a weapon, all it would take is a massive Ragnarok Attack and rushing at him with the Sword of The Creator at the same time, at which point he would either be massively burnt, or take a Powerful Sword Attack, likely a Ruptured/Sublime Heaven or something to that effect.

This isn't even to mention Vantage- Even if KL depletes her of her HP, as soon as she hit's Half or under, she will attack first in combat. Even if this can't apply to while he's still blitzing her, as soon as she starts seeing him, which she will eventually get to, she will start moving first and before him.

 

[XDragnoir]

From what I can see on the profile, it can only be nulled if it's a weapon. Even if it could be nulled, then Byleth either switches to her sword or uses another spell, or better yet, just fire another spell, since from what I'm seeing, he can only null one at a time when it comes to projectiles. KL is going to have to constantly be paying attention to her attacks if he's focused on nulling her attacks, especially considering Byleth can spam them.

He kinda literally used it against Acqua's multiple ranged slashes, you're really underestimating his Thororm Formula IMO:

Using his bare hands and seemingly holding the sword by the blade, William drew back Ascalon swiftly. Once he had opened some distance, he released several slashes, each in a different attack method.
The light was red - an axe-like thick blade to cleave at the sinews of the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was blue - a razor-like thin blade to cut away at the fat of the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was green - a churchkey spike in the blade to tear off the scales of the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was yellow - a fretsaw wire nestled on the blade to disembowel the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was purple - a giant saw on the back to severe the bones of the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was pink - a hook spike attached to the pommel to pull out the fangs of the evil dragon.
"Turn to zero."
The light was white - a close-combat spike near the grip to gouge out the nerves of the evil dragon.
"That's already been turned to zero!! Are you quite done yet?!"



And saying "turn to 0" isn't a rule as in the first use he didn't say it.

 

[TheGatememer]

All of what I said still applies sans the “spams the same spell again”

 

[XDragnoir]

• Prior Knowledge

KL has that too.

• Skills that increase her speed, and chances of dodging, and hitrate

KL has that too, also, what's the strength of Byleth's amp? MS allows KL to blitz those that are at the same speed as him.

• Is guaranteed to attack first if she is goes below half health, which also gives her a chance to nullify any counterattacks

Her probability hax does that? And what exactly do you mean by nullify? How exactly is it nullified?

• Higher Dura (Scales to a Third Form Immaculate One, who greatly upscales from 409, if not 818 gigatons)

If Byleth scales to 800 that would be a good gap, but otherwise they'd be kinda even as i said before

• Can be like "**** everything in that general direction" with her spells, and do the same with her sword if for whatever rieason he decides to not use TDF on the SoTC.

That's not impressive at all as i already gave the example with Acqua so the ranged game isn't working while he still has his own amps to fight back against her close range.

 

[TheGatememer]

KL has that too.

It applies even more so for Byleth, since she doesn’t need to waste one of her 13 Divine Pulse charges to know about his techniques.

KL has that too, also, what's the strength of Byleth's amp? MS allows KL to blitz those that are at the same speed as him.

KL only has speed amps, not amps that increase his dodge or hit rate. If we don’t include vantage, her speed amps aren’t as strong as KL’s.

Her probability hax does that?

More so a skill, which guarantees her to attack first, even if the enemy is the one that initiated combat.

And what exactly do you mean by nullify? How exactly is it nullified?

As in KL will become unable to counterattack for a bit.

If Byleth scales to 800 that would be a good gap, but otherwise they'd be kinda even as i said before

Byleth scales to a higher value (regardless of which value we use) than KL, and has a much higher scaling chain, so not really.

That's not impressive at all as i already gave the example with Acqua

Then she switches to another spell, or shreds him with sublime heaven, since he can only null one at a time. He’s going to have to constantly be switching targets from attacks if he’s focused on nulling her attacks, rather than being focused on attacking her.

so the ranged game isn't working while he still has his own amps to fight back against her close range.

That’s under the assumption that Thororm even works on her magic, which it probably doesn’t since it doesn’t come from a weapon. Even if it does, he’s still going to be dealing with attacks from basically all directions. She can shoot rapid volleys of fireballs, summon a lightning bolt on top of him, lifesteal via Nosferatu which literally lands on him, or create a giant explosion under him.

 

[XDragnoir]

It applies even more so for Byleth, since she doesn’t need to waste one of her 13 Divine Pulse charges to know about his techniques.

While KL will get knowledge about her time powers and other things.

KL only has speed amps, not amps that increase his dodge or hit rate. If we don’t include vantage, her speed amps aren’t as strong as KL’s.

Isn't the dodge-hit rate pretty much the same thing as speed but in video game terms? Like, dodging and hit is entirely related to how fast you are.

More so a skill, which guarantees her to attack first, even if the enemy is the one that initiated combat.

? If it's related to combat skill then it isn't guaranteed to always work, much less against blitz amps and ranged attacks.

As in KL will become unable to counterattack for a bit.

Okay but why? She will magically restrain him or something?

Byleth scales to a higher value (regardless of which value we use) than KL, and has a much higher scaling chain, so not really.

247 = Mjolnir < Gabriel's attacks < Curtana Shards <<< Gabriel's dura < Yuisen <<< KL without Hrunting < KL with Hrunting = Acqua with Ascalon <<< Pattern Magic Amps

Keep in mind we are talking mainly about swords here and we have 2 cases of blocking a sword completely unscathed with their bare hands (Gabriel and KL) when swords are able to cut someone even while being slightly weaker, due to surface area things.

.Then she switches to another spell, or shreds him with sublime heaven, since he can only null one at a time. He’s going to have to constantly be switching targets from attacks if he’s focused on nulling her attacks, rather than being focused on attacking her.

He can do both things? Like, Byleth isn't in one shot range at all and KL isn't stupid, if he notes there are too many types of attacks coming then he can switch to avoid, hit and run rather than a null and block tactic, he has no reason to spam something when he knows it will not be effective.

That’s under the assumption that Thororm even works on her magic, which it probably doesn’t since it doesn’t come from a weapon.

If he can't then her weapons will be nulled for the whole 10 minutes the spell lasts and all he will have to do is dodge or block the spells.

Even if it does, he’s still going to be dealing with attacks from basically all directions. She can shoot rapid volleys of fireballs, summon a lightning bolt on top of him, lifesteal via Nosferatu which literally lands on him, or create a giant explosion under him.

Lifesteal is the only one here that seems a strong move, does Byleth use it in character and is it a first move? How much life from the target does it steal?

 

[Naito-desu]

2 votes for Byleth, 1 for Knight Leader so far?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

That is about right, from my understanding.