From Moonrise to Moonset Match 1: Byleth vs Kazakiri Hyouka

[TheKingStrategist13]

Nah, the series is 50-50 on weird science stuff and weird magical bullshit. And there's the protag that has the High 1-C Right Hand, but kek. Isn't too important. Also, I'm pretty sure that the thing that powers Hyouka and her attacks isn't magic (which is called AIM and is why Hyouka also has that anti-magic thingy going on), so Seiros Shield won't really offer that much protection.

Yeah, I figured as much. It's be weird for a Anti Magic Power to be fueled by Magic itself. Either way, this has proven educational to me on how Index works, to a small extent.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Too bad that the more interesting High 6-C ToAru characters couldn't be apart of this tourney, but it is very understandable with Accel's High 1-C LolNope Auto-Reflect Barrier and Kakine's Infinite reproduction and creation bullshit on why they can't be a part of this tourney... That, and ToAru Profiles need revisions, but kek.

Welp, to make it clear, I vote for Byleth FRA.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I believe that my vote should also be clear (Does the vote of the one who submitted a character count?), but, Byleth for the Reasons we have already discussed.

And... Yeah, I heard that they're usually a biiiiit much, and well, learned that a little earlier when trying to submit character's, lol.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Now hold yer horses.

And none of what I have stated is listed as part of Byleth's Magic. They all come from either her naturally passive skills/abilities, her Crest of Flames, or are just blatantly part of her naturally. In the case of the Portal, it's a little more unclear, but it's not stated to be Magic.

So what are the Crest of Flames and skills like nature wise? Just because they are not magic in FE doesn't necessarily mean they don't equalize to such in Index. Magic in Index covers a lot of very different stuff.

And on that note, I read Byleth's summary. This is the key were she's fused with Sothis which, in my understanding, is a divine entity.

So she gets parts of her power from that. That puts her into the same category as saints, valkyries, angels, demons, gods and transcendents in Index. All of which qualify as magic. In particular, even the physical strength earned by being such an entity is magic.

So I think Byleth is affected by the anti-magic field at a fundamental level.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Now hold yer horses.

Me after forgetting to send “Byleth FRA” after i already typed it yesterday.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Now hold yer horses.

So what are the Crest of Flames and skills like nature wise? Just because they are not magic in FE doesn't necessarily mean they don't equalize to such in Index. Magic in Index covers a lot of very different stuff.

Conjecture. Can you prove that the Crest of Flames should translate to Magic? Can you prove her innate skills should? Just because it's not clear how it translates to another verse does not mean we should assume that it by default is the most advantageous translation. There is no evidence to suggest that it is magic to my knowledge, hence, for the purposes of this it should not be considered as such.

And on that note,

And on that note, I read Byleth's summary. This is the key were she's fused with Sothis which, in my understanding, is a divine entity.

So she gets parts of her power from that. That puts her into the same category as saints, valkyries, angels, demons, gods and transcendents in Index. All of which qualify as magic. In particular, even the physical strength earned by being such an entity is magic.

So I think Byleth is affected by the anti-magic field at a fundamental level.

Just because Divine beings are magic by default in Index does not mean that Byleth would count as Magic. To quote the SBA,

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization."

"Will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses."

As far as I know, the mechanics are not similar at all. Her field works on Divine beings because they are a magic, but in FE, Sothis's Divinity isn't a magic. As much as the mechanics of a verse apply to one combatant, the mechanics of the other apply to them. Byleth should not be considered inherently a magic, and as such, she should not be affected by the field on a fundamental level.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Conjecture. Can you prove that the Crest of Flames should translate to Magic? Can you prove her innate skills should? Just because it's not clear how it translates to another verse does not mean we should assume that it by default is the most advantageous translation. There is no evidence to suggest that it is magic to my knowledge, hence, for the purposes of this it should not be considered as such.

Well, I don't know the verse and don't know the details of that stuff. Hence I asked how they work. In my understanding (from google) the Crest of Flames is an ability given and powered by a supernatural entity, though, which is textbook magic in Index. There are many magicians that use techniques based on and powered by angels, for example.

Just because Divine beings are magic by default in Index does not mean that Byleth would count as Magic. To quote the SBA,

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization."

"Will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses."

As far as I know, the mechanics are not similar at all. Her field works on Divine beings because they are a magic, but in FE, Sothis's Divinity isn't a magic. As much as the mechanics of a verse apply to one combatant, the mechanics of the other apply to them. Byleth should not be considered inherently a magic, and as such, she should not be affected by the field on a fundamental level.

I mean, first, as @XDragnoir said Hyouka's stuff works on Telesma, which isn't regular mana based magic but divine power. So divine power actually equalizes pretty directly to the scope of magic in Index IMO.

And I mean, in general, you haven't really given a reason why god powers in Index are so very different from god powers in FE that they can't be equalized. Especially in context of a technique that warps the very laws on which all kinds of magical beings operate.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Well, I don't know the verse and don't know the details of that stuff. Hence I asked how they work. In my understanding (from google) the Crest of Flames is an ability given and powered by a supernatural entity, though, which is textbook magic in Index. There are many magicians that use techniques based on and powered by angels, for example.

And yet, you have people who use Scientific means to create Supernatural beings and effects. Again, Magic clearly is not the only answer, and the burden of proof falls on you to prove that the Crest should be counted as Magic in the scope of this thread. There is no indication that in the FE verse, it counts as magic, and just because it provides a similar effect as what magic could be considered in Index does not mean the Anti-Magic Field would treat it as such.

I mean, first, as @XDragnoir said Hyouka's stuff works on Telesma, which isn't regular mana based magic but divine power. So divine power actually equalizes pretty directly to the scope of magic in Index IMO.

And I mean, in general, you haven't really given a reason why god powers in Index are so very different from god powers in FE that they can't be equalized. Especially in context of a technique that warps the very laws on which all kinds of magical beings operate.

Shouldn't she just have a power on her profile that works against Divine Beings, or something to that effect? Her power's are only stated to affect magic and those who are using it in the profile. There is no indication that Sothis's divinity is magical based. It's a bit weird that you're saying her ability has a specific and abnormal application when it's not even somewhat implied on her profile. What's more, Byleth's fused key does not state that she has divinity. As far as the profile is concerned, it indicates that she gained Longevity, Portal Creation, Regen, and Self Sustenance. Nothing about Divinity.

 

[XDragnoir]

Can you please give an actual explanation of how magic, the crest and whatever else Byleth has works instead of being fixed on how things are named in each verse?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

The moves called Magic specifically are used via Weapons.

Crest's are special boons passed down through generations via the blood of their family

Skills are just that. Skills. Special Abilities that can be used by a individual.

None of these run on some kind of life force, nor some kind of mana system for a individual, or anything of the like. They are either from a weapon, in the case of magic, or are just natural abilities of someone either naturally learned or naturally passed down. Nothing that Byleth uses here relies on a Mana System. Is that satisfactory?

 

[TheGatememer]

Crests aren’t “abilities”, they are things that are passed down through inheritance, or given via blood transfusions.

Only Byleth’s magical spells are affected by magic nullification. Using a silence spell on her only makes it so she can’t use magical spells, it doesn’t nullify her abilities.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

That's solidified it then, Byleth FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay then I vote Byleth.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Looks like 4 votes for Byleth's win.

 

[Naito-desu]

Alright, given Byleth is set on winning the vote, I'll have him advanced prematurely

 

[DontTalkDT]

And yet, you have people who use Scientific means to create Supernatural beings and effects. Again, Magic clearly is not the only answer, and the burden of proof falls on you to prove that the Crest should be counted as Magic in the scope of this thread. There is no indication that in the FE verse, it counts as magic, and just because it provides a similar effect as what magic could be considered in Index does not mean the Anti-Magic Field would treat it as such.

Shouldn't she just have a power on her profile that works against Divine Beings, or something to that effect? Her power's are only stated to affect magic and those who are using it in the profile. There is no indication that Sothis's divinity is magical based. It's a bit weird that you're saying her ability has a specific and abnormal application when it's not even somewhat implied on her profile. What's more, Byleth's fused key does not state that she has divinity. As far as the profile is concerned, it indicates that she gained Longevity, Portal Creation, Regen, and Self Sustenance. Nothing about Divinity.

You need to get the notion that magic in one verse can only equalize to magic in another verse out of your head. It is wrong.

There are several kinds of magical powers in index, which can equalize to several supernatural powers in other verses.

As already said her magic null works on divine power. Yeah, that is also magic in index but that is just a matter of classification, not of nature.

Byleth is fused with a goddess in this key so she is supernatural divine entity in parts.

So the anti magi field is effective and takes Byleth out.

So I vote Hyouka.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

There are several kinds of magical powers in index, which can equalize to several supernatural powers in other verses.

As already said her magic null works on divine power. Yeah, that is also magic in index but that is just a matter of classification, not of nature.

That should be applied to the profile then. It should be specified what does and doesn't get affected by the barrier, instead of simply saying Anti Magic without any further clarification. It's not a Anti Magic Field if it works in the sense that you are saying.

You and Dragnoir (and before you attempt to defend yourself and say you didn't say it, you directly quoted it as something you agreed with, so there is at least that.) said that it would specifically work if the magic run's on life force in some capacity earlier. Now that it is proven that it doesn't, your tune has shifted to "It should work anyway because she's divine".

Even if it should, which it shouldn't, the profile does not have divinity for Byleth. Even if you want to argue that Byleth should be considered in the category where divine beings are that would be affected, her profile has no indication that she has any form of Divinity that the field could work on. This is VSbattles. Even if we believe something to be a fact, if it's not in the profile, it is not considered as such. Here's a example. I believe that Makoto Yuki should be the strongest Persona MC due to having a particular power called the Universe Arcana, but as far as this wiki is concerned, Ren Amamiya is more powerful.

You should clarify how things like this anti magic field would work before you get into a debate about it, otherwise you're leaving other's in the dust and not informing them of a crucial aspect of a battle. Dragnoir stated it had to do with Life Force, then you say it works anyways. You two need to make up your mind's, and show proof. And make sure to keep in mind what the profiles say, too, because blatantly ignoring what they have, or more importantly, what they don't have in this case, is just in poor taste. If you want, you can make a CRT about Byleth and Divinity, but as far as this wiki is concerned at the moment, Byleth has no such thing. She is not Divine according to this wiki, thus according to this wiki, the Field would not work on her.

I am not trying to come off as rude. Nor am I trying to come off as aggressive. But you two keep ignoring profiles and introduced new information about this ability, changing how it works in the middle of a battle. I cannot emphasize enough how unprofessional and disingenuous this is. Even if Byleth should have lost this fight, you did a poor job of defending Hyouka. FantaRin did a much better job in engaging in a productive debate. Before talking about hax, this was a engaging argument.

But the moment you introduced the anti magic hax, you were highly pressuring, unprofessional, and disingenuous. I will admit I did a sub par job of defending Byleth, as to be expected due to my lack of close familiarity with her, but you pushed the burden of proof that should have been on you unto the opposing side. You also misinterpreted what Dragnoir said. And I quote, "Tho it also worked against Vento who uses Telesma, which is a more divine version of Mana than it is life force, i guess", this implies that it worked because Telesma is a more Divine version of Mana, not because it is inherently Divine. Because it was a Mana variant, it was affected, that is what this most seems to imply, not that Divinity by default is affected by this. If that were the case, you would see this little girl taking on GOW character's and passively crushing them and their blood vessels.

I should note this is more reflective of the way DT acted and less so of Dragnoir's, but as a general argument, the opposing side was very, very unprofessional. The Opposing side should have, in my opinion:

• More thoroughly explained and deliberated how the intricacies of the Barrier Work
• Provided Evidence that would back up their explanation
• Less Flaky with how the barrier works
• More Organized
• Paid attention to the Profiles, the Abilities they have, and take into consideration how they affect the battle, as well as how a person not having something on their profile would affect the battle.

This isn't a personal attack by any means. Consider it criticism, and something you should take notes from. I did not provide a perfect argument myself, admittedly, but I hope that this can prove as a learning experience for all involved.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Popping in, and want to say something in regards to Hyouka's Anti-Magic stuff... In her series, there was a character named Vento was managed to endure being affected by it for quite a bit of time, even if it weakened her by a quite a bit. While the details of the exact circumstances and wording of how Vento was affected are lost to me atm, since I am quite busy with a ToAru CRT in the works in my sandbox, I do think Byleth would be able to endure being affected by Hyouka's hax due to her stamina (and possibly her low-mid regen, if somebody adds it to profiles).

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So you're saying that it's not instantly debilitating, right? Noted.

 

[XDragnoir]

You also misinterpreted what Dragnoir said. And I quote, "Tho it also worked against Vento who uses Telesma, which is a more divine version of Mana than it is life force, i guess", this implies that it worked because Telesma is a more Divine version of Mana, not because it is inherently Divine. Because it was a Mana variant, it was affected, that is what this most seems to imply, not that Divinity by default is affected by this.

...

I am 100% sure you're not understanding the point, i didn't say Hyouka only affected Telesma cause it's a variant, it isn't a variant at all btw (it IS a different source of magic, NOT a variant of mana), the point was that Hyouka can affect different types of magic in-verse

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Tho it also worked against Vento who uses Telesma, which is a more divine version of Mana than it is life force, i guess

Just from the wording, that seems to be what you had implied. That being said, apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[XDragnoir]

Just from the wording, that seems to be what you had implied. That being said, apologies for misunderstanding.

My bad for not saying it clearly enough too.

Also, just to explain, but also as her profile already says:

That was the most frightening aspect. This gigantic being shook the world, warped the several “layers” piled on top of each other, and blew away the magical laws that stretched out alongside that space. And the pressure was continuing to grow as if to say this was only the beginning. Not even a Christian Saint could manage this much. That left the question of how to interpret this phenomenon.
(Is this…Academy City’s…final line of defense…against the occult?)

Her anti magic works via affecting the very laws that allow magic to work, so with my first post i was trying to explain the different kinds of magic that exist in index and that Hyouka can null.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

My bad for not saying it clearly enough too.

Also, just to explain, but also as her profile already says:

That was the most frightening aspect. This gigantic being shook the world, warped the several “layers” piled on top of each other, and blew away the magical laws that stretched out alongside that space. And the pressure was continuing to grow as if to say this was only the beginning. Not even a Christian Saint could manage this much. That left the question of how to interpret this phenomenon.
(Is this…Academy City’s…final line of defense…against the occult?)

Her anti magic works via affecting the very laws that allow magic to work, so with my first post i was trying to explain the different kinds of magic that exist in index and that Hyouka can null.

Thank you for clarifying. In a few ways, this has proven educational.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. I am pretty sure that this thread has five votes in favor of Byleth, so... Anybody willing to drop a vote or two, so that this can be added to profiles?

 

[koopa3144]

Byleth FRA

 

[Naito-desu]

I'll give the last vote for Byleth for reasons above

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And that's grace.

 

[Naito-desu]

Grace has ended, this can be added