Freezing and Temperature Feats Continued

[DontTalkDT]

What is a heat based feat?

 

[Agnaa]

So just kinda skimming through as someone who kinda goes with the flow on all this calculation and science stuff...

If there is a character who uses say, a fireball or something like that and their attack vaporizes a lake or something, would this be outlawed with the new standards or is this in a safe zone?

It would be allowed but would be listed alongside force-based AP (from things like punches, explosions, energy blasts, bullets, etc.)

@DT I think it's feats that involve the increase or decrease of temperature to get their result? But you could wait for a bigger supporter to give a better definition.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe those that only way they cause damage are by elevated temperatures, be magma or combustions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, say a magician creates a dark-attribute beam attack that on one occassion vaporizes a bunch of rock, together with the explosion it usually causes.

If a character tanks that, does it get normal durability or heat durability? Both? Neither?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

What about characters who are physically human but have both force-based and heat-based magical attacks? Would the force-based and heat-based ones be listed separately on the profile as well?

 

[Antoniofer]

I would say that explosions counts as our conventional definition of durability, it involve both overpressure and heat, but if someone resist x amount of degrees it may reduce the damage tanked by the explosion. In the other hand, explosions damage do not comes exactly a blunt force, it comes a pressure different, in fact, the 20 psi value is not due shattering people bones and flesh, is by causing barotrauma.

 

[Agnaa]

@Anton Then they'd be Unknown physically, 8-B with heat attacks, like Enji Todoroki.

@DontTalk Good counterexample, idk how people would want to treat that.

@Spino Yes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Do we still scale supernatural temperature work to other applications of said supernatural power?

 

[Agnaa]

@DontTalk Dargoo thinks that we shouldn't. Here's a recent post of his on that issue.

> or anything that affects other stats of a character, right?

Honestly I can't think of any scenario where we take a freezing/heating feat and apply it to blunt durability or punching strength, or other forms of damage like electricity.

The arguments for it ever doing that falls loosely into these two camps:

 

[Antoniofer]

That do you mean with supernatural temperatures? something like Hellfire?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If the same feat has both force-based and heat-based power in it, do we have to calculate how much force and how much heat was in the attack respectively?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, I heavily disagree with not scaling techniques to each other.

That goes into the direction of expecting Ap feats for every separate application of a supernatural power and is poison to both debating and indexing.

If the verse makes a point that they are different than ok, but otherwise all applications using the same amount of supernatural power should be roughly in the same ballpark. Otherwise we just end up with characters having dozens of tiers (one for each technique) and bunch of unknowns.


Striking Strength vs Heat is a different issue, but for one spell to another spell default assumption should be that amount of supernatural power invested is proportional to power output of the attack.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dargoo

I meant which official standards/instruction pages that need to be updated.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk seems to make sense as usual in any case.

 

[Antoniofer]

We used to scale different types of attacks in the past, characters able to perform attacks that can potentially oneshot its enemies when they were unable to do so before is pretty common. Not real issue to scale one spell to another, but I would suggest to do so if they have the same nature (electric, explosive, heat, etc. kind of damage).

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, say a magician creates a dark-attribute beam attack that on one occassion vaporizes a bunch of rock, together with the explosion it usually causes.
If a character tanks that, does it get normal durability or heat durability? Both? Neither?

Both. Explosions are an example of a heat-based attack that's also a force-based attack, considering the heat of the reaction (the fireball) and the shockwave.

So you'd have the heat of it vaporizing the rocks, and the force generated by the explosion it causes thereafter, which, given the simplicity of the example you're giving, can both be pretty easily calc'ed.

If the same feat has both force-based and heat-based power in it, do we have to calculate how much force and how much heat was in the attack respectively?

Depends on the feat. Ideally we'd calculate force over area for force, but for our system, since it's based on joules, explosive yield should work find as a combined force/heat attack.

I never said that. My issue is with scaling force-based techniques to heat-based techniques. There's a lot less issue with scaling heat-based attacks to heat-based attacks than there is that.

That goes into the direction of expecting Ap feats for every separate application of a supernatural power and is poison to both debating and indexing.
I'd prefer if you explained why and how it applies to what I'm proposing. I can't really meaningfully respond to this otherwise. Although if your claim is (I doubt it is, but I'm not really getting much else from you) that we shouldn't catalog separate kinds of feats separately as a rule of thumb, that's something we already do even in the way I'm specifically talking about on our site.

So this comes off more as 'differentiating kinds of feats is poison to debating, but our differentiation of feats isn't', which is confusing to say the least. Again though I felt like you didn't really explain yourself here so I could be totally wrong about your point, feel free to expand on it.

Otherwise we just end up with characters having dozens of tiers (one for each technique) and bunch of unknowns.
This seems to be a gross exaggeration of what I'm proposing and is based on a misunderstanding of my arguments from above. I'm not saying we cannot scale techniques. I am saying we cannot scale force-based techniques to heat-based techniques.

If you understood what I was saying from the beginning, then I feel like this is a bit of a slippery slope. Differentiating heat and force wouldn't apply to even a quarter of our current pool of profiles, and likely wouldn't even effect characters who have hybrid heat/force feats. And said characters wouldn't get 'a dozen' seperate listings, I doubt we'd see more than a hundered or so with over two.

 

[Agnaa]

You're saying that we cannot scale force-based techniques to heat-based techniques even if they share the same power system, but just to be crystal clear, do you think that we also cannot scale heat-based techniques to forced-based techniques?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes, vice versa as well.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So for explosions, the explosion yield can be used for both force and heat AP, or do we have to separately calculate force and heat?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with DonTalk 100%

 

[Jaakubb]

Causing storms can't automatically (maybe sometimes of course, but don't make the smooth brained argument that the exception disproves the rule [I normally hate this phrase because theres no correct interpretation of it but I dont know any better ones]) scale to AP because it's a chain reaction. You just cool a mass of air, and then due to the nature of air it moves a lot. The storm's kinetic energy is non combat applicable for obvious reasons (a normal storm wont kill a character with city block level dura) and cant scale to other states because it requires no quantifiable energy output as the catalyst of the storm is a cooling feat (theres no reason to believe that the energy output needed to perform a freezing feat is proportional to the energy displaced).

And the default assumption is NOT that the supernatural input equals the energy output. It OFTEN is but not always (take chain reactions for example. If I use the force to push a boulder off a cliff that's already there, is the required input proportional to the kinetic energy of the falling boulder? Of course not). The supernatural input equals the normal input, not output is the default.

Can we deal with one heat based attacks "subtopic" at a time? Whenever we bring up something we move on to something else and forget about it. This shouldn't go around in circles any more than it already is.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So for explosions, the explosion yield can be used for both force and heat AP, or do we have to separately calculate force and heat?

Ideally you'd calculate both seperately, although I'm not personally sure how you'd go about calculating the force in a way that translates to our joules-based system.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Force can translate to energy if there's movement to go with it. But not otherwise.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So what should we do with explosion calcs if we can't calculate both separately?

 

[Agnaa]

So what should we do with explosion calcs if we can't calculate both separately?

I think the first step should looking into a way to calculate both, if this revision is going to be accepted, rather than worrying about what to do in the event that's impossible.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Our current formula is based mostly on force; especially for omnidirectional ones and nuclear explosions. The Gas explosions have no where near as much force as they look, and the actual heat is more Wall level at best unless the character is like much larger than human sized.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also I have a question, why does our Calculations page says that when we get a result in Watts for heat-based feats, we shouldn't multiply it by the time and just use the Watts as Joules?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also yeah, most heat durability feats are underwhelmingly low. Unless something is extremely hot or extremely high surface area, it usually is just Tier 9.

 

[Agnaa]

Also I have a question, why does our Calculations page says that when we get a result in Watts for heat-based feats, we shouldn't multiply it by the time and just use the Watts as Joules?

Probably because watts are "Joules per second", and for our AP feats we only use the value of one second of the feat.

If a feat happens over five seconds, we divide the total energy output by five. But if the feat happens over 0.2 seconds, we still use that value, since we don't know that if the feat continued for 5x as long that it would actually output 5x the energy.

Also @DDM @Spino I strongly suspected that myself and have brought it up multiple times, but Dargoo doesn't seem to think it'll be much of an issue, so he may have a response to that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For feats were watts are used, we scale attack potency based on Joules per second; unless the timeframe was less than a second, then we just go by the end result.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions

40%-50% of energy is from the blast (which is why we multiply explosion calcs by 50%) while 30%-50% of energy is from thermal radiation.

However, just like surviving the Sun feat calculated by DontTalkDT, there's a maximum amount of thermal energy an object can take through a certain source of heat.

Heat capacity for the human body is 3470, and nukes can be up to 100 000 000 degrees Celsius, or 100000273.15 Kelvins. So let's say a 70 kg human, the maximum energy in take would be

3470*70*100000273.15 = 2.4290066e13 Joules, Town level

That's the MAXIMUM amount of heat energy someone can take in from a nuke.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also Inverse Square Law applies to heat right? So we can just calculate explosions normally, since both the blast and thermal radiation are at most 50%. Then Inverse Square Law, but if the result exceeds the maximum energy intake we put them as Town level instead?

 

[KLOL506]

I guess that could work, but if it's point-blank then I don't know, prolly the entire yield applies.

 

[Antoniofer]

Technically, if we known the temperature at say point of the explosion, we do not need to apply the square inverse law (talking in general, not necessary about explosions). As for explosions, I suggested a method to scale overpressure long ago (only applicable to gound level explosions), although anything below 20 psi overpressure is "humanly possible to survive".

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Now this is really starting to feel overly complicated...

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Well could we just credit 40-50% of the blast to force and 30-50% of the blast to thermal radiation (if it doesn't exceed the maximum energy intake of roughly 7-C)?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also sorry since I'm a little late to the party, what did we decide to do with freezing feats?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Spino it was agreed among the staff to continue treating freezing feats the same way we treat heating feats since it's the same feat but in reverse.

 

[Jaakubb]

@Spino it was agreed among the staff to continue treating freezing feats the same way we treat heating feats since it's the same feat but in reverse.

Aren't we still discussing that? I don't remember coming to a conclusion here. My arguments still stand. Heating feats scale to other stats, freezing calcs shouldn't affect other stats at all. Not even as supporting feats. Also coloring text is easy, I still think it's a good idea.

Also what are you guys' thoughts on, say, the effects of a 7-A heat attack on a 6-B character or something similar to that? Lots of high tier characters consistently get hurt by lava or contact with the sun. Could be PIS but i don't know.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Kaltias already explained it and detail, as did DonTalk that we absolutely can't knit pick supernatural power sources as a lot of combat oriented fiction typically simplifies those systems to treat all those feats equally. There's no way to argue against feats such as using Water/Ice bending to freeze a lake outside of headcanon. If their ability to freeze massive areas is completely tied to their power level in a verse with a linear PL system, it scales to everyone equal to or stronger than them.

There is some distinction, but often times blatantly low anti-feats such as 5-B characters dying from house fires are PIS. But 6-B characters getting burned by 6-C heat is some distinction. Plus, often times, it's typically other things besides heat; such as the Sun having radiation and high gravity that negates durability.