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Continued from here as the previous thread has nearly 500 posts.
There have been general debates on how we should be treating feats such as cooling and freezing. The main argument brought up is that freezing is the antonym of heating feats. Heating by definition is adding thermal energy to an object, where as freezing is extracting the same amount of energy. Our definition of AP mentions the energy being produced is what our definition of Attack Potency is rather then the destruction being done. However, the arguments for supporting them is that extracting energy is still Attack Potency because it's still harnessing the same amount of concentrated energy.
Obviously, we have literally over 23,648 pages upon this thread's creation and hundreds of blog calculation in which at least hundreds of characters have their tiers depending on a calculation that involves the freezing of an object. And this especially includes nearly every single cloud formation feat using CAPE. While the vast number of our profiles isn't a reason to argue for or against the standard, the fact remains it's important to make sure each and every single one of them is justified. But how it gets justified is a different story.
Anyway, I still stand on my agreement with a few other users including what Mr Bambu, DMUA, DontTalk, Xulrev, and Ugarik said that freezing feats are still attack potency feats. We gave in depth details about them being no different the heating feats excluding the fact that it's in reverse. Plus, for every object being cooled, there still at least one more object, or the rest of the atmosphere being heated. So counter intuitively, if heating feats are attack potency, then so are cooling feats. However, there is a problem that our Attack Potency page mentions it being required that "The character needs to produce there own energy". It probably could be reworded as saying they simply need to concentrate an X amount of energy.
Other problems that did occur that heating and cooling feats shouldn't scale to striking strength and durability by default. Which is also a case be case scenario; we still do if the thermal energy or force operate on the same mechanics including but not limited to a specific verse related energy/power source being used for everything. But surviving a plasma rifle or freeze gun shouldn't always fully be a durability feat; between the concept of inverse square law and their body actually absorbing or releasing the thermal energy being some notable requirements for them to be durability feats. But it was also agreed that some things can have great temperature resistance but lacks true durability against blunt force trauma on the same tier; and vice versa.
Note: This is a Staff thread and it's preferably Calc group members especially. However, regular users may ask me or other staff members via message walls for permission to comment. I have already given a few permission to share their thoughts.
Note 2: On the matter of scaling heat attacks to force attacks when they share a power source. Read the Collapsed posts carefully to get a better understanding of the examples for a typical power scaling chain:
Yay: Ant, DontTalk, DDM, Bambu, AKM, Drago, Elizhaa, Matt, Spino, DMUA
Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Wok, Damage, Anto, Ricsi, Zark (Though, appears the Nay applies to having them on the AP/Durability section in general).
There have been general debates on how we should be treating feats such as cooling and freezing. The main argument brought up is that freezing is the antonym of heating feats. Heating by definition is adding thermal energy to an object, where as freezing is extracting the same amount of energy. Our definition of AP mentions the energy being produced is what our definition of Attack Potency is rather then the destruction being done. However, the arguments for supporting them is that extracting energy is still Attack Potency because it's still harnessing the same amount of concentrated energy.
Obviously, we have literally over 23,648 pages upon this thread's creation and hundreds of blog calculation in which at least hundreds of characters have their tiers depending on a calculation that involves the freezing of an object. And this especially includes nearly every single cloud formation feat using CAPE. While the vast number of our profiles isn't a reason to argue for or against the standard, the fact remains it's important to make sure each and every single one of them is justified. But how it gets justified is a different story.
Anyway, I still stand on my agreement with a few other users including what Mr Bambu, DMUA, DontTalk, Xulrev, and Ugarik said that freezing feats are still attack potency feats. We gave in depth details about them being no different the heating feats excluding the fact that it's in reverse. Plus, for every object being cooled, there still at least one more object, or the rest of the atmosphere being heated. So counter intuitively, if heating feats are attack potency, then so are cooling feats. However, there is a problem that our Attack Potency page mentions it being required that "The character needs to produce there own energy". It probably could be reworded as saying they simply need to concentrate an X amount of energy.
Other problems that did occur that heating and cooling feats shouldn't scale to striking strength and durability by default. Which is also a case be case scenario; we still do if the thermal energy or force operate on the same mechanics including but not limited to a specific verse related energy/power source being used for everything. But surviving a plasma rifle or freeze gun shouldn't always fully be a durability feat; between the concept of inverse square law and their body actually absorbing or releasing the thermal energy being some notable requirements for them to be durability feats. But it was also agreed that some things can have great temperature resistance but lacks true durability against blunt force trauma on the same tier; and vice versa.
Note: This is a Staff thread and it's preferably Calc group members especially. However, regular users may ask me or other staff members via message walls for permission to comment. I have already given a few permission to share their thoughts.
Note 2: On the matter of scaling heat attacks to force attacks when they share a power source. Read the Collapsed posts carefully to get a better understanding of the examples for a typical power scaling chain:
| Respect paragraph/Power scaling chain for a typical verse |
|---|
| So this isn't any sort of real verse, but let's say I decided to make a fanfiction like verse that's RPG and/or Shounen Manga style. Or it has canon media containing both. It has a seemingly medieval fantasy like setting, but certain modern weapons exist such as explosives. But the most prominent thing is that it has a level up system like most RPGs and they also got have this thing where their power level is based on how much "Fighting Spirit" they have based on the lore. Fighting Spirit has a combination of spiritual and magical properties, but characters also used them to enhance physical strength, durability, and speed. They're also often used for magic barriers and stuff. But even non magic users still have great levels and often comparable levels to that of magic users. The games if any also have SP (Stands for Spirit Points) as an ammunition statistic for their special attacks. They're using used for status effecting hax, healing, and teleportation but those game mechanics shouldn't be used for scaling purposes. But now down to the feats and the respect scaling. The first feat done by level 1 characters is fighting various large monsters. One of the mooks has canonically withstood a point blank explosion with the durability feat calculated at slightly above 500 kg, since explosions are a combination of heat at force, so it's a solid tier feat. This is 8-C which would scale to fodder characters for sure. After the party progressed a bit in their journey, at least one of the mages learns an Ice Berg spell that was calculated at 8-B. The Ice Mage is equal in power to the Fire Mage, and both of them can regularly trade blows along side the party's sword wielding Warriors and Hand to Hand combat Monks regardless of whether physical or magical attacks are being used. So that's 8-B temperature manipulation and resistance, but whether it scales to physical durability is up to debate. And at this point, everyone completely fodderizes stomps the various 8-C mooks. With even further progressions, they part comes across a fire golem like enemy. This guy has a lava spell capable of melting giant rocks. Which was calculated at 8-A based on how much stone they were able to melt in a single second. The party was able to defeat this enemy and trade blows. So this enemy has 8-A heat manipulation, and the party would have to have 8-A levels of heat resistance to tank their precision fireballs that can also explode. The Fire Golem can also attack with melee. Also, the part is invulnerable to the 8-B and below foes at this point; both physical and magical/temperature attacks. With yet even more progressions, they meet a casual "Hill Buster". It's a giant that shatters a hill, which was calculated at around 15 Kilotons. This giant is invulnerable to everything that came before both physically and magically, until the protagonists grew strong enough to trade blows with this behemoth. So this giant is Town level and is overwhelmingly greater than everything they fought before them, this includes Multi-City Block level and below attacks heat, electric, melee, all having no effect. Upon further progression, a Thunder God is introduced. Thunder God performs a Low 7-B feat. Said Thunder God becomes a new formidable foe that's mightier than all previous enemies. It's a storm feat, typically pass as environmental destruction, but this god is an embodiment of the storm they create. The same Thunder God is also physically much stronger than the previous giant who would take 0 damage from the party that was even with said giant. A new foe has an attack that nukes the battle field. The nuclear explosion was calculated at 7-A which to protagonists can calculated at point blank range. Explosions are impressive heat and force wise, so this easily scales as a 7-A feat at this point in time. And no need to mention how much the protagonists have progressed. With even more progression, an Ice Mage was now able to freeze an entire lake. This was calculated at 6-C. The Fire Mage should logically be equally capable of unfreezing the same lake due to being equal to the Ice Mage. And the warrior is also still able to trade blows with the same strongest enemies and the same protagonists can trade blows with each other with each other. The 7-A nuke is nothing to any of them at this point in time. Even more progressions, and the Wind Mage was able to blow way massive amounts of clouds with a Hurricane. The kinetic energy was calculated at 6-B which the same Wind Mage can harness their same magic into a single attack to cut their enemies. Wind is physical, and thus would scale to physical durability. The Fire and Ice Mages can still trade blows with the Wind Mage and same with the Warrior. Reaching near the end of the series chronologically, the 12 Legendary Weapons where introduced, they are by lore implied to have equal power, but when it comes to individual feats, there are two that stand out. There is Durandel, the Blazing Sword of Fire, and Malte, the Frozen Lance of Blizzards. The wielders of said two weapons were able to affect the planet's atmosphere. A single strike from the Malte was able to cause an Ice age, similar to the level seen in this blog. And Durandel was able to cause Global warming and return the Earth to its original stage. Legendary Weapons all have mystic powers that also enhance the wielder, and only those with great power can wield them. As the weapons possess great powers that destroy the wielders if they're not strong enough to handle them. Upon growing much stronger than their 6-B selves, they can now use these weapons just fine. Finally, the God Tier enemy of the verse is capable of creating a pocket reality with an Earth to Sun distance. Said character can also invoke the star to go Supernova and warp the pocket reality, and has trapped the protagonists within. The Protagonists can not only trade blows with the Final Antagonist, but the only way out would be to destroy the final enemy and thus destroy the pocket reality. Supernovas are High 4-C which is impressive both heat and force wise. So this is a clear cut High 4-C feat. And that wraps up to power scaling chain progressions. Note: This does NOT include that gag Galaxy level feat that happened early on done by a underdog Jester character; that's an outlier. And it also excludes PIS such as a game mechanic of characters loosing health when the step in lava in the games, or fodder/mook enemies chip damaging the protagonists. It also excludes casual low end feats such as a Wind God who also has a 8-A calculated Tornado feat done on screen. But the protagonists were well past 7-C physically, and the Wind God was lore wise equal to the Low 7-B Thunder God who has his storm feat. |
| Those who are the Yay's power scaling chain conclusions |
|---|
* Bottom Tiers characters are 8-C
|
| Those who are in Nay's power scaling chain's conclusions |
|---|
* Bottom Tiers characters are 8-C
|
Nay: Dargoo, Andy, Kep, Wok, Damage, Anto, Ricsi, Zark (Though, appears the Nay applies to having them on the AP/Durability section in general).
