Four Knights of the Apocalypse/Nanatsu no Taizai Main Discussion Thread

[Majinere566]

When has Gilthunder even fought without a weapon?

 

[Makai641001]

Let's take Gilthunder, for example.

His magic is categorised under the type that amplifies his weapon strength 10-fold.

He can already harm Meliodas to the point of making him bleed without using weaponry (as can Guila and ******* Ruin), so imagine what'd happen if his attack potency was amped 10-fold by a weapon?

Not only that, but all the Holy Knights in the series wield Sacred Treasures. So it's this 10x amp + a boost from the Sacred Treasure.

We know for a fact that Meli held back massively against Gil
+ Gil never fought without weaponry iirc
I don’t see why it wouldn’t be pretty logical

 

[Majinere566]

And not everyone has Destroyer type which is rare(iirc)

There's different categories and the amps are usually 2-3×

And what you're saying is under the presumption that they have infact ever shown to use magic enchanted weapons. This is why I was trying to push that we apply it when it's visibly shown

 

[ByAsura]

Again, weaker people can make him bleed.

But if you want an example, here. Holding back doesn't mean suppressing durability (which isn't really possible).

Not only that, but he's consistently took hits from Meliodas and Hendrickson. Are Meliodas and Hendrickson 10x weaker than Gilthunder's durability?

We know for a fact that Meli held back massively against Gil
+ Gil never fought without weaponry iirc
I don’t see why it wouldn’t be pretty logical

Really? Because he said the opposite.

 

[Majinere566]

Can't even see the images it's really annoying(it's not your fault)

 

[ByAsura]

See if they work now.

 

[speedster352]

See if they work now.

Can the 10x amp be used in 4koa? Would that change scaling a lot?

 

[ByAsura]

As I've said before, 4KOA is fine since it's always been implemented.

This is just a retcon for NNT.

 

[Makai641001]

Again, weaker people can make him bleed.

But if you want an example, here. Holding back doesn't mean suppressing durability (which isn't really possible).

Pretty sure He is stated to be able to lower his durability

Not only that, but he's consistently took hits from Meliodas and Hendrickson. Are Meliodas and Hendrickson 10x weaker than Gilthunder's durability?

The enchantment isn’t amping Durability

Really? Because he said the opposite.

Which is contradicted by Meli being able to fight for an extended period of time against people dwarfing Gil’s stats

 

[speedster352]

As I've said before, 4KOA is fine since it's always been implemented.

This is just a retcon for NNT.

Would this apply to the sins in 4koa too? So we could get large country level characters in 4koa that’s wild.

 

[Makai641001]

As I've said before, 4KOA is fine since it's always been implemented.

This is just a retcon for NNT.

Oh so there is no need to argue since we should have a whole new scaling chain implementing these in 4kota

 

[ByAsura]

Pretty sure He is stated to be able to lower his durability

1 example?

The enchantment isn’t amping Durability

I didn't say it was. AP and striking strength consistently scale at least somewhat, especially for Meliodas and Hendrickson, who've matched and attacked Gilthunder.

Which is contradicted by Meli being able to fight for an extended period of time against people dwarfing Gil’s stats

Which isn't, because Gilthunder has a Sacred Treasure-like weapon.

 

[Makai641001]

As I've said before, 4KOA is fine since it's always been implemented.

This is just a retcon for NNT.

So going back to the initial point Meli is large country lvl with enchantment if He use it in 4kota

 

[ByAsura]

Only in 4KoTA, though.

For example, if he appears and pulls out a sword, claiming it's 10x stronger due to magic, then that's fine for a 4KoTA Meliodas key.

 

[Majinere566]

He really doesn't need to claim its 10× stronger for us to conclude its 10× stronger tho?

 

[ByAsura]

Should be fine even if he doesn't.

 

[Makai641001]

1 example?

Chapter 99 it is explained that He render himself defenseless in front of attacks to charge more energy for things li

I didn't say it was. AP and striking strength consistently scale at least somewhat, especially for Meliodas and Hendrickson, who've matched and attacked Gilthunder.

Then i don’t see a problem Meli attacking him without the intention to kill and to follow his plan With Gil doesn’t invalidate Gil’s 2 to 3x multiplier He Would harm them more with a weapon And they Would harm him more with enchantments that’s all

Which isn't, because Gilthunder has a Sacred Treasure-like weapon.

So is sacred treasure Gil on par with Hendrikson ? Or was Meli the one who could handle him

 

[Makai641001]

Should be fine even if he doesn't.

Ok So no need to argue

 

[speedster352]

He really doesn't need to claim its 10× stronger for us to conclude its 10× stronger tho?

Exactly

Only in 4KoTA, though.

For example, if he appears and pulls out a sword, claiming it's 10x stronger due to magic, then that's fine for a 4KoTA Meliodas key.

Anyway it would still be wild since they will have large country level to continental ap. Can we use Meliodas statement of the 4koa being comparable to the sins to upgrade them? It’s also makes sense sins Lancelot was rendered to the same strength of the mid series sins

 

[ByAsura]

Chapter 99 it is explained that He render himself defenseless in front of attacks to charge more energy for things li

That's not dropping his durability. That's lowering his guard (i.e not blocking) and dispelling any magic, like Full Counter. Even then, he was getting pelted by all the Sins and Hendrickson, yet he survived.

Also, he wasn't using Revenge Counter against Gilthunder. In fact, he did the exact opposite at one point and concentrated all his magic and senses.

Then i don’t see a problem Meli attacking him without the intention to kill and to follow his plan With Gil doesn’t invalidate Gil’s 2 to 3x multiplier He Would harm them more with a weapon And they Would harm him more with enchantments that’s all

But he explicitly said he did after the fight and after all the deception was lifted, so a problem is already arising.

It's not 2 to 3x, it's 10x.

They don't need to use the same enchantments. Their fists also work.

So is sacred treasure Gil on par with Hendrikson ? Or was Meli the one who could handle him

All of them were on par with each other according to Gowther.

 

[speedster352]

That's not dropping his durability. That's lowering his guard (i.e not blocking) and dispelling any magic, like Full Counter. Even then, he was getting pelted by all the Sins and Hendrickson, yet he survived.

Also, he wasn't using Revenge Counter against Gilthunder. In fact, he did the exact opposite at one point and concentrated all his magic and senses.

But he explicitly said he did after the fight and after all the deception was lifted, so a problem is already arising.

It's not 2 to 3x, it's 10x.

They don't need to use the same enchantments. Their fists also work.

All of them were on par with each other according to Gowther.

It was a 3v1 before Meliodas went down so Meliodas was stronger than Gilthunder.

 

[speedster352]

That's not dropping his durability. That's lowering his guard (i.e not blocking) and dispelling any magic, like Full Counter. Even then, he was getting pelted by all the Sins and Hendrickson, yet he survived.

Also, he wasn't using Revenge Counter against Gilthunder. In fact, he did the exact opposite at one point and concentrated all his magic and senses.

But he explicitly said he did after the fight and after all the deception was lifted, so a problem is already arising.

It's not 2 to 3x, it's 10x.

They don't need to use the same enchantments. Their fists also work.

All of them were on par with each other according to Gowther.

Meliodas did not use demon mark or wraith on Gilthunder so he was holding back. Meliodas did way better against weaken grey demon Hendrickson than Gilthunder did. Also weaken grey demon Hendrickson blitz Gilthunder so does that affect the scaling chain?

 

[ByAsura]

Gowther explicitly says they're all equal while fighting, and Meliodas only needs to be faster/more skilled (that's literally in your thread, IIRC) to evade them.

Also, here's another instance of Gil casually harming Mel.

Meliodas did not use demon mark or wraith on Gilthunder so he was holding back.

He did, actually. Just not during the entire fight.

You could say that about most of the opponents in this phase of the series. Fact is, he can go full power without using Demon Mark.

Meliodas did way better against weaken grey demon Hendrickson than Gilthunder did.

Gilthunder never really fought Hendrickson (he just got hit once), and Meliodas barely did any damage without Demon Mark. In fact, in this fight alone Gilthunder fries Meliodas.

Also weaken grey demon Hendrickson blitz Gilthunder so does that affect the scaling chain?

Not much, because even Mel needed Demon Mark to intercept it.

 

[Makai641001]

That's not dropping his durability. That's lowering his guard (i.e not blocking) and dispelling any magic, like Full Counter. Even then, he was getting pelted by all the Sins and Hendrickson, yet he survived.

He render himself defenseless can be interpretated otherwise

• Revenge Counter「リベンジ・カウンター, Ribenji Kauntā」: Meliodas turns off his abilities so that he can take damage. After Meliodas has taken enough damage, he charges his blade with power and strikes his enemy with it. This is considered to be Meliodas' ultimate attack. When Meliodas used Revenge Counter against Hendrickson, Gowther stated that he had a survival chance of 0.2%. This ability is reminiscent of the Original Demon's power, Crisis.

All that is said is that He consciously allow the attacks to do as much damage as possible

Also, he wasn't using Revenge Counter against Gilthunder. In fact, he did the exact opposite at one point and concentrated all his magic and senses.

He anyway wasn’t there to kill handled them 3v1 And was able to fight an opp far stronger than Gil

It's not 2 to 3x, it's 10x.

iirc 10x is the max

They don't need to use the same enchantments. Their fists also work.

They’ll do far more damage with a weapon

All of them were on par with each other according to Gowther.

I’m talking about demon hendrikson

BTW Meli did use DM only once to stop an attack And He did so with his bare hands while being casual him being serious is invalidated there

 

[speedster352]

Gowther explicitly says they're all equal while fighting, and Meliodas only needs to be faster/more skilled (that's literally in your thread, IIRC) to evade them.

Also, here's another instance of Gil casually harming Mel.

He did, actually. Just not during the entire fight.

You do realise he can go full power without using Demon Mark?

Gilthunder never really fought Hendrickson (he just got hit once), and Meliodas barely did any damage without Demon Mark. In fact, in this fight alone Gilthunder fries Meliodas.

Not much, because even Mel needed Demon Mark to intercept it.

Yea but he wasn’t actually at full power he didn’t use his wraith form. Yes but weakens grey demon Hendrickson still stomped Gilthunder. And yes Meliodas still blitzed weaken Hendrickson

 

[Makai641001]

We should just stop arguing We won’t find a middleground let’s focus on something else

 

[ByAsura]

He render himself defenseless can be interpretated otherwise

And I'm disagreeing with that interpretation. But, even if it's correct, as I explained Meliodas still tanked a ton of attacks from all the Sins, Holy Knights and Grey Hendrickson. It is not substantial.

All that is said is that He consciously allow the attacks to do as much damage as possible

Which is exactly what lowering your guard to get hit does, lmao.

He anyway wasn’t there to kill handled them 3v1 And was able to fight an opp far stronger than Gil

These are arguments I've literally just addressed.

iirc 10x is the max

And Gilthunder's lightning magic is the maximum.

They’ll do far more damage with a weapon

Which is irrelevant to the point.

I’m talking about demon hendrikson

Then no. But, Meliodas couldn't handle him either. Even Diane with Gideon and King couldn't actually harm him.

BTW Meli did use DM only once to stop an attack And He did so with his bare hands while being casual him being serious is invalidated there

It isn't. He hardly ever used Demon Mark during the series at that point.

Yea but he wasn’t actually at full power he didn’t use his wraith form. Yes but weakens grey demon Hendrickson still stomped Gilthunder. And yes Meliodas still blitzed weaken Hendrickson

I literally just addressed all these points.

 

[Zelas]

yh yh

 

[speedster352]

And I'm disagreeing with that interpretation. But, even if it's correct, as I explained Meliodas still tanked a ton of attacks from all the Sins, Holy Knights and Grey Hendrickson.

Which is exactly what lowering your guard to get hit does, lmao.

Anyway, these are literally arguments I've addressed.

And Gilthunder's lightning magic is the maximum.

Which is irrelevant to the point.

Then no. But, Meliodas couldn't handle him either. Even Diane with Gideon and King couldn't actually harm him.

It isn't. He hardly ever used Demon Mark during the series.

I literally just addressed all these points.

Well Meliodas is still stronger than Gilthunder. Simple

 

[ByAsura]

More than 10x stronger, of course.

Anyway, Makai's already conceded. So I'm going to bed.

We should just stop arguing We won’t find a middleground let’s focus on something else

 

[speedster352]

More than 10x stronger, of course.

Anyway, Makai's already conceded. So I'm going to bed.

I thought you said we can’t use 10x for nnt and only 4koa

 

[ByAsura]

I'm suggesting your arguments lead to that conclusion.

 

[speedster352]

I'm suggesting your arguments lead to that conclusion.

Why my arguments? Helbram had the strength of 20 holy knights and still couldn’t beat wraith Meliodas without an amp from Hendrickson which makes no sense since Hendrickson has trouble with fatigued base Meliodas with 2 other people helping him.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, with your arguments, because Gilthunder with the supposed 10x lightning amp and a Sacred Treasure can fight on par with Meliodas while he’s using a normal/broken weapon and not amping it.

I’m glad you see why this amp doesn’t work.

 

[ByAsura]

I’ve decided not to go to bed, btw, because I still don’t have any luck finding the Elizabeth fight.

Can anyone tell me if Elizabeth even fought Meliodas before the Holy War?

 

[Makai641001]

I’ve decided not to go to bed, btw, because I still don’t have any luck finding the Elizabeth fight.

Can anyone tell me if Elizabeth even fought Meliodas before the Holy War?

I don’t think so

 

[speedster352]

I’ve decided not to go to bed, btw, because I still don’t have any luck finding the Elizabeth fight.

Can anyone tell me if Elizabeth even fought Meliodas before the Holy War?

Meliodas and Elizabeth did fight in the past remember bloody ellie. She damaged him so badly that he told his father never let your guard down against her. Read the DK Zeldris arc.

 

[helper]

Again, weaker people can make him bleed.

But if you want an example, here. Holding back doesn't mean suppressing durability (which isn't really possible).

Not only that, but he's consistently took hits from Meliodas and Hendrickson. Are Meliodas and Hendrickson 10x weaker than Gilthunder's durability?

Really? Because he said the opposite.

he wasn't even bleeding also wasn't he getting jumped

 

[ByAsura]

He was, you can see a droplet. Same with this scan.

Also, both Ruin and Guila have made him bleed, despite being weaker than Gil.

Why would getting jumped matter? Does your durability lower 10-fold when you’re taken by surprise? Is it easier to bleed when jumped? Are they in Dragon Ball?

 

[Lormac_CC]

Honestly, both scans you dropped don't show him bleeding