[FINALS] Asuna Kamakura & Javen vs Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate [GRACE]

[VeneficaAuthor]

What realistically could Asunaven do to counter or win against Frogate? I don't see anything.

I mean if they can get it off, the stars are still an option of course since they can form strats involving these stars, but as far as I can tell that would be their main wincon while frogate has various moves they can win with (as well they won’t be caught off guard by anything thanks to the starting analysis and their own precog), which is where the higher odds and progress potential come from

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Not to mention, even if you could come up with something, Hecate is WAAAAAAAAAAY smarter than you. She'd likely have an answer to the ideas you have too given that.

Hecate even stomps cobalt in intelligence, any idea anyone in the real world possibly could come up with would be trumped easily by Hecate but I’m also not a genius fighter like Asuna, I’m just some dude, and although she is way behind in planning she’s not a pushover and again they’ve held their own for three whole pages. If a real Hecate was in my place though, it’s true that this thread would already be well over

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Plus I wanna avoid more giant back and fourths, the max thread and both semis threads along with this one have taken over the majority of all my free time for literal weeks, I haven’t been able to plan anything for my return to writing because of this tourney and frankly, I’m tired, real life is stressing me tf out for many reasons and I’m sure Rayfire is tired too, plus with froggy now back to college he will hardly have any time at all to look through this now.

It’s time to look for a conclusion, hopefully without massive replies…

 

[SSB64]

Hecate even stomps cobalt in intelligence, any idea anyone in the real world possibly could come up with would be trumped easily by Hecate but I’m also not a genius fighter like Asuna, I’m just some dude, and although she is way behind in planning she’s not a pushover and again they’ve held their own for three whole pages. If a real Hecate was in my place though, it’s true that this thread would already be well over

Not to mention, if somehow, someway, all else fails, Frogate's last resort would be to pull a Clover 2.0. Even if it's not on character, they'll almost certainly go for it if they don't see a away around it (Not to mention that Frogman can just Rewind the Star summon and can work around Javen's imagination powers on their own anyways, not to mention, even outside of that.....

frogman has a bunch of ways to (including his own social influencing, which is very strong in stage 4) break Javen’s spirit (also denying imagination manifestation, since his belief would be pretty shaken at best, and that belief needs to be stout for it to work) even with Asuna’s help and of all the fighters, Javen is most likely to be taken out first based on all the variables (especially with frogate basically having nothing but dura neg options and his reactions being nothing next to Asuna or even frogman since he doesn’t have any enhanced reactions at all)

And.....

Plus frogman and Hecate have methods to just stop them from pushing the earth away which is what allowed them to use stars quaint cobalt in the first place.

Not to mention.....

if that's all she senses then there's no chance she'll know the nature behind any of these attacks, and in that case, how will she dodge it? Golden lasers can already land on precog/warping/portal spamming enemies and even then the RL portals can go over the riftways, and her precog won't help javen at every step (especially with no connected mind like Frogate). If Frogman were to summon gigantic DRAGON saber's right where the main Asuna and Javen stand, and then pulls a

2-SEC-REWIND

To rewind everything beneficial Asunaven would do to avoid the attack, during the two seconds duplicating the dragon jaws over and over and over again to create endless bites into one spot, then bringing them instantly within the jaws? What would they do about it? Based on the info below, playback wouldn't be that great (plus, now that I think of it, she's returned back to the third dimension every time after using it, which means even if the blow stuff isn't true he can still rewind those benefits she brought back with her anyhow. Even if this doesn't include memories either, stuff like power creation would get nulled, and Frogman with clones can use a rewind 81 times every second)

so even the Star option is mute.) This just sounds like Dio + Clover, but with the offenses and arsenal to actually do more than them (And yes. Golden Lasers would work on Dio since against strong foes, Dio will be goaded to not use Time Stop right from the start, and his Stand blocking them wouldn't be enough since it just needs to get close to Dio which is easy given that there's hundreds of thousands of them and The World is a Melee Stand which has to stay pretty close to the user to be effective.)

 

[Yoriichi999]

Plus I wanna avoid more giant back and fourths, the max thread and both semis threads along with this one have taken over the majority of all my free time for literal weeks, I haven’t been able to plan anything for my return to writing because of this tourney and frankly, I’m tired, real life is stressing me tf out for many reasons and I’m sure Rayfire is tired too, plus with froggy now back to college he will hardly have any time at all to look through this now.

It’s time to look for a conclusion, hopefully without massive replies…

Didn't you have a 7 page debate if I'm remembering correctly? I vote Frogate winning with mid difficulty to high diff at most.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

The semis stuff is over and I’m not responding to anything about it anymore

Didn't you have a 7 page debate if I'm remembering correctly? I vote Frogate winning with mid difficulty to high diff at most.

Yeah that’s part of why this thread is killing me mentally, I just got done with that not long before this started

 

[Yoriichi999]

I see. Even then I vote Frogate winning with mid difficulty to high diff at most.

 

[SSB64]

Plus I wanna avoid more giant back and fourths, the max thread and both semis threads along with this one have taken over the majority of all my free time for literal weeks, I haven’t been able to plan anything for my return to writing because of this tourney and frankly, I’m tired, real life is stressing me tf out for many reasons and I’m sure Rayfire is tired too, plus with froggy now back to college he will hardly have any time at all to look through this now.

It’s time to look for a conclusion, hopefully without massive replies…

This is why my current conclusion is a Frogate DQ. Not only would this prevent more of these long messages from occuring, but it also seems to be the most likely outcome given that, unless Asunaven can do something to pull it out of their butt, they're getting stomped (Pretty bad image for staying in the Tourney and not being considered too broken when an undefeated champion with backup gets curbed by those same two characters.)

Heck. At this rate, I'm starting to believe that Dio + Clover would legitimately lose to Frogate since from the sounds of it, Frogman has counters to even Clover's SAVE and LOAD function.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

That talking isn’t helping my state out at all, and Leo already stands by their decision, so it’s over, this fight won’t end with a dq, me and Ray have already talked to Leo about this

 

[SSB64]

The semis stuff is over and I’m not responding to anything about it anymore

Considering the Semi's stuff connects to this and my issues with Frogate, that's a pretty big thing to say.

 

[SSB64]

That talking isn’t helping my state out at all, and Leo already stands by their decision, so it’s over, this fight won’t end with a dq, me and Ray have already talked to Leo about this

Then let me talk with them about it.

 

[Rayfire]

Im very glad Im able to use Tree Saber through Frogman's hands for the first time in the vsbattle thread. Its description may sound simple, but with all the info listed in previous sections (thousands of Red Sabers going from the central tree-like branches [viz the last image how Frogman decimates the 3 enemy units on his right], featuring 7x variants of the blades each with unique effects), this attack becomes an idealistic move capable to one-shot most of Asuna's and Javen's clones on the battlefield, if not all of them. Frogman obviously cannot swing with it entirely once it's launched and has to draw it back to release once more + not to exhaust most of his recovering energy, but the sheer battlefield spam with thousands of different Stage3 Red Sabers aimed to hit all clones is a magnificent move, further with many Blades being capable to send ranged attacks further:

• Special Red Saber's swings can send homing ranged cuts, casting lower 'decay burning' effect on anything within their touch range. Rotating sweeps with Red Saber will alter spiral side cuts rotating around Frogmen, also holding lower 'decay burning' effect.

Not to mention Asuna's precog cannot see any of these sabers, yet the entire trees Further, with hundreds of portals used, this becomes night-impossible to read with instinct alone. And did I mention Combat S4 Frogman has 2 Red Saber handles? He can land them 2x after another to hit all that's left. At last, with Hecate using her hard diff golden modes and having Spagm-like tentacles over the entire place + casting explosions with mind whenever she looks + much more Vene argued with already, and Hands hidden from the world which can be used against the originals (would they still barely evade this hell) being another variant instead of second Tree Saber, I can hardly see AsuJaven surviving like against the Golden Laser Storm, namely not after they used their invilability + luck manip there already (and it is in cooldowns now). Even another Combat Stage 4 Frogman fighting seriously would be with most odds hit by some of the thousands of tree branches abusing portals and being precog-proof. AsuJaven are truly admirable that Combat Stage 4 has to launch this, it's likely the beginning of his hard diff even.

If this move is used to attempt to oneshot asuna & javen's clones, then that isn't very ideal considering that asuna's clones can pull a half-uno reverse on frogman this way, or at least hecate... I've said this MANY times before lol, if it physically impacts asuna AT ALL it'll reflect about 50% back onto either frogman or hecate depending on who the clone chooses. This is not a very good idea at all lol, as i've said before this is going to discourage them.

• Enhanced Attack Reflection (Via [Reverse] Skill. While it is only active for a few seconds at a time, It can redirect 50% of any physical damage landed on asuna back towards an aggressor, though this is not able to redirect certain skills, such as [Negate], which do not physically impact her.)

How come? Asuna senses the killing intent of a target, she isn't an analytical machine like the red stickmen uses lol, it's entirely different Frogman doesn't negate instinctive action.

Would they even be able to do this once asuna actually uses [Fortune], though? If asuna wants her and javen to get a hit in she definitely can do that, and even if the rewind spam is legitimate, [Fortune] has a history of making people act irrationally/inconsistently during it's usage time if successful, Like with the NPC in the adventurers tournament when he suddenly became scared to death of asuna, so frogman may hesitate to spam the rewinds the moment asuna uses this to counter Golden Laser Storm

Assuming hecate manages to get Golden Saturn Waving it sort of becomes a 50/50 from there, since probability manipulations will conflict with each other. Neither are guaranteed, but both make each other equally as likely to hit each other considering that there is no exact percentage for this move on Hecate's page ever specified.
I feel like i am repeating myself here...

her peak feats of dodging just thousands of projectiles

She massively upscales from that after limit break dude... i dunno what to tell you bro, i've said this a lot of times lol

and even with fortune there’d still be 250,000 blasts which would be statistically extremely likely to hit her especially with the fact that laser storm will home in on her and Javen

Statistically extremely likely is very, well, unlikely to deter [Fortune]. Frogate aren't truly god-like in comparison to asuna & javen, otherwise this would be a stomp. From how the skill works i think the amount of blasts wont matter.

My stance was that if Asuna travelled back through time, she isn't rewinding the present, so Frogate can still make actions while she's travelling into the past. Causality is something associated with time. Frogman rewinding time prevents the Cause of Asuna travelling back from occuring.

I mean, she is rewinding time AS she is moving in the 4th dimension. That's what i meant...

I see. Even then I vote Frogate winning with mid difficulty to high diff at most.

It's a bit early to vote lol, i still have arguments and vene is being a tiny bit forgetful about what asuven can do...

Javen is most likely to be taken out first based on all the variables (especially with frogate basically having nothing but dura neg options and his reactions being nothing next to Asuna or even frogman since he doesn’t have any enhanced reactions at all) would leave a 2v1 against Asuna, and there’s no chance she’d survive against these two all alone.

On the path we are on rn this isn't likely, especially since this sort of combo will, again, make asuna use [Fortune] pretty early on, and [Reflect] is still a disadvantage to frogate if they can't stop it from being used. Javen isn't likely to fall THIS quickly lol

If this IS in-character for them to do by any chance, then while i certainly want this thread to keep going, i'm a tiny little bit concerned about how any duo here could get by rewind spams like this... If that could be explained to me that would be great

SOMEONE ANSWER MEEEE

 

[SSB64]

SOMEONE ANSWER MEEEE

This is what I've been saying. And again. Even if it's not in character to prioritize it like with Clover, they'll eventually resort to it anyways since it's an option, and their wish is to win as per battle rules.

 

[Rayfire]

This is what I've been saying. And again. Even if it's not in character to prioritize it like with Clover, they'll eventually resort to it anyways since it's an option, and their wish is to win as per battle rules.

I don't think we'll get a clover situation from this, I'm not in favor of a DQ at all, It just seems highly out of character considering something this big hasn't been brought up until now even when the rewinds were mentioned earlier I don't remember frogman spamming this against red stickmin for example so they can't run away at all lol

 

[Rayfire]

(anyway, time to return to college bachelor thesis preparations)

Good luck bro

 

[SSB64]

I don't think we'll get a clover situation from this, I'm not in favor of a DQ at all, It just seems highly out of character considering something this big hasn't been brought up until now even when the rewinds were mentioned earlier I don't remember frogman spamming this against red stickmin for example so they can't run away at all lol

Because smaller units can already deal with them (I looked at the Red Stickmen profile, and they're only as impressive as a single Level 1 Android Soldier at best)

And again, even if it's not in character, it will eventually be the case that they'll resort it should Asunaven be able to counter everything else.

Clover wouldn't use it to start either since the only reason they did was because they were beyond peeved with Flowey at that point in the game. Even Asgore, who Clover was after, wasn't subject to this.

 

[Rayfire]

Clover wouldn't use it to start either since the only reason they did was because they were beyond peeved with Flowey at that point in the game. Even Asgore, who Clover was after, wasn't subject to this.

Bruh then why did you bring it up...

Because smaller units can already deal with them (I looked at the Red Stickmen profile, and they're only as impressive as a single Level 1 Android Soldier at best)

Laser frogman himself also exterminates red stickmen too though, he has drawings of that...

Even then, it's never said he did anything like this against stronger enemies like Purple Skeleton Mages for example as far as i remember, in fact i can't remember a single time frogman spams it in a fight other than maybe reviving spagmatrons

Either way, asuna will still remember the rewinds. and [Fortune] will still apply if she's in a sticky situation like that, as froggy has admitted there is a lack of acausality negation in play, So the odds will still be in their favor and make frogman statistically unlikely to spam it. Other than the star strategy it's one of their best assets. Asuna has numerous ways to get rid of the spagmatrons thanks to Forcefield Negation, [Barrier of Chaos], [Erasure], And Javen making their shields less effective and on extreme cooldown thanks to AP, etc, which will be useful once the skill is actually used here.

And again, even if it's not in character, it will eventually be the case that they'll resort it should Asunaven be able to counter everything else.

I'm confident they'll take em out before then, [Fortune] is hard to beat especially considering hecate's seems limited, with no specific luck value and also limited range too. Placing asuven in a bad spot is a death wish if they can't defend well enough

And Golden Saturn Waving may be susceptible to [Negate] too. Golden Fire Lasers induce power nullification, but only by contact-based stuff or nullifying energy, which is nothing like [Negate] which is basically a status effect, which hecate doesn't have any resistance to (I feel like i should add that now that i think about it, lol) So i think it's entirely possible asuna could turn it off too, Unlike frogman who's resistance to it seems sound, at least from what i remember. I'm confident that even if it was limited to something like 10 seconds, it'd be more than enough to pull this off.

 

[Rayfire]

If hecate does have reasoning that makes sense for resisting [Negate] though, i can see this being incon as i've said earlier

Assuming hecate manages to get Golden Saturn Waving it sort of becomes a 50/50 from there, since probability manipulations will conflict with each other. Neither are guaranteed, but both make each other equally as likely to hit each other considering that there is no exact percentage for this move on Hecate's page ever specified.
I feel like i am repeating myself here...

 

[Rayfire]

So i think i have reason to believe that this will either be Incon or an Asuven W, frogate's best option seems to be winning instantly somehow (Which is just a stomp and not able to be added lol) before [Fortune] can be used to save asuven, which is especially likely with the scenario froggy made where asuven has a GOLDEN opportunity to defend against Golden Laser Storm using this and various other means (Get it ) and take frogate out before the time runs out, which will statistically be either very likely or a 50/50 if hecate can resist [Negate] to get rid of her own probability manipulation (Which, again, isn't really specific on how much it buffs the luck on the profile, and has limited range and both induce very likely positive outcomes anyway). Spamming rewinds offensively, while a bit iffy and seems out-of-character to me, won't stop this as asuna will remember the rewinds due to a lack of acausality negation which froggy states is not on the profile. Thus asuven's own probability manipulation will kick in

yet it's fair there is nothing concrete about acausality-negation of FU pages right now. It’s likely that 2-sec-rewind gets its own section on the Red Laser page sometime to really define its potential.

I just hope nothing in asuven's arsenal is gonna be forgotten about again lol, this seems common and it's a tiny bit frustrating

Either way, It's definitely an honour to have lasted this long against an FU and V.Verse character simultaneously. This is definitely frogman's hardest fight yet no matter the outcome I can see the 4 of them getting along well once the fight is actually finished...

 

[Rayfire]

So i'll switch my vote to incon if hecate can handle [Negate], but otherwise this is definitely looking like an asuven win statistically speaking As there are no counters brought up besides Golden Saturn Waving unless frogate will just stomp immediately like vene seems to be banking for (Which can't be added lol). So for now, i'll say it once more...

I Believe In Asuna and Javen, And in the Future! I Believe. My Drill... IS MY SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Asuven) FRA

 

[SSB64]

She massively upscales from that after limit break dude... i dunno what to tell you bro, i've said this a lot of times lol

Seems pretty vague, especially when the difference in projectiles is by a magnitude of several dozen times greater, and as mentioned before, the lasers don't even need to hit Asuna to take effect. Just being close to be enough to dematerialize her

Bruh then why did you bring it up...

Okay listen. I was up against Frogate. I had to use everything at my disposal to win.

I'm confident they'll take em out before then, [Fortune] is hard to beat especially considering hecate's seems limited, with no specific luck value and also limited range too. Placing asuven in a bad spot is a death wish if they can't defend well enough

And Golden Saturn Waving may be susceptible to [Negate] too. Golden Fire Lasers induce power nullification, but only by contact-based stuff or nullifying energy, which is nothing like [Negate] which is basically a status effect, which hecate doesn't have any resistance to (I feel like i should add that now that i think about it, lol) So i think it's entirely possible asuna could turn it off too, Unlike frogman who's resistance to it seems sound, at least from what i remember. I'm confident that even if it was limited to something like 10 seconds, it'd be more than enough to pull this off.

I just hope you're right on these facts.

So i'll switch my vote to incon if hecate can handle [Negate], but otherwise this is definitely looking like an asuven win statistically speaking As there are no counters brought up besides Golden Saturn Waving unless frogate will just stomp immediately like vene seems to be banking for (Which can't be added lol). So for now, i'll say it once more...

I Believe In Asuna and Javen, And in the Future! I Believe. My Drill... IS MY SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Asuven) FRA

I will be Vote #2. Asunaven FRA.

 

[SSB64]

If Javen votes, that'll be 3 votes. Get over here Javen.

 

[Yoriichi999]

Asunaven FRA

 

[Rayfire]

Seems pretty vague, especially when the difference in projectiles is by a magnitude of several dozen times greater, and as mentioned before, the lasers don't even need to hit Asuna to take effect. Just being close to be enough to dematerialize her

Asuna basically IS several magnitudes above her 7-A self tho She went from being stomped by haruka who was leagues above her in a lot of categories to winning... Limit break is a big increase in a lot of places

I just hope you're right on these facts.

I've checked red laser resistances and everything, i'm confident...

 

[SSB64]

Asuna basically IS several magnitudes above her 7-A self tho She went from being stomped by haruka who was leagues above her in a lot of categories to winning... Limit break is a big increase in a lot of places

I've checked red laser resistances and everything, i'm confident...

Yoriichi is the !

 

[SSB64]

Asunaven FRA

GRACE!

 

[Yoriichi999]

Yoriichi is the !

Always have been, always will be.

 

[Fernaine]

Unsure if I can still vote, but having read the whole thing, I'm inclined to say Asunaven FRA.

 

[Rayfire]

Unsure if I can still vote, but having read the whole thing, I'm inclined to say Asunaven FRA.

There's no real limit to voting, There's only a minimum to get it added which is 3...

So there's 4 votes now. We've been through nearly 5 whole pages so i think this is over, considering 4-vote matches can be added immediately. This has been long as is

 

[Javenplayz253]

If Javen votes, that'll be 3 votes. Get over here Javen.

"And that's that!"

"Death? Heh, what do you mean by that? If you have even the slightest idea of what i'm fighting for, I'm sure someone as smart as you can figure out that i'm practically invincible. Who cares if you know more about magic than me, or if you aren't scratched by my attacks? My fighting spirit is gonna keep surging... UNTIL I CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING!"

Asunaven fra

 

[SSB64]

WE DID IT!

 

[SSB64]

Before I celebrate too quickly though.....

 

[SSB64]

If Asuna and Javen win you need to take back everything you said about Frogate lol

As promised, I humbly apologize for everything I said regarding this subject. If I was a nuisance to everyone, then I apologize for that too.

 

[SSB64]

There's no real limit to voting, There's only a minimum to get it added which is 3...

So there's 4 votes now. We've been through nearly 5 whole pages so i think this is over, considering 4-vote matches can be added immediately. This has been long as is

"And that's that!"

"Death? Heh, what do you mean by that? If you have even the slightest idea of what i'm fighting for, I'm sure someone as smart as you can figure out that i'm practically invincible. Who cares if you know more about magic than me, or if you aren't scratched by my attacks? My fighting spirit is gonna keep surging... UNTIL I CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING!"

Asunaven fra

Meanwhile, someone is celebrating, proud of the accomplishment you pulled off.

 

[MintyBoi1]

W match, Asunaven clutch FRA. Though there’s still grace period.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I can’t believe yall, you voted even without a hint of a final response from us. Stage 4 frogman has yet to reveal his greatest moves and froggy has a response to the main voting points he was going to post tomorrow. Guess nothing matters now but this is a disastrous way to end this tourney, i was taking a break and disabled all my notifications because of how stressed I was lately, so imagine my shock when I’m told Asuna and Javen have 6 votes out of nowhere while waiting for froggy to post. Did no one think it was a little weird I wasn’t answering anything when I usually always do?? Come on man… I feel betrayed.

 

[Yoriichi999]

Very well. I shall commit to a peaceful transition of a non-vote and wait until the final arguments for frogman henceforth. But this debate has to end because I've been following the entire match and this seems so drawn out to the point where it is getting cumbersome.

 

[SSB64]

I can’t believe yall, you voted even without a hint of a final response from us. Stage 4 frogman has yet to reveal his greatest moves and froggy has a response to the main voting points he was going to post tomorrow. Guess nothing matters now but this is a disastrous way to end this tourney, i was taking a break and disabled all my notifications because of how stressed I was lately, so imagine my shock when I’m told Asuna and Javen have 6 votes out of nowhere while waiting for froggy to post. Did no one think it was a little weird I wasn’t answering anything when I usually always do?? Come on man… I feel betrayed.

A similar thing happened with me when I was arguing Clover's stuff in the previous match. Nobody had the time or dedication to figure out Clover's weakness before Leo swooped into DQ Dio + Clover. Tournaments do be like this sometimes.

 

[Rayfire]

I can’t believe yall, you voted even without a hint of a final response from us. Stage 4 frogman has yet to reveal his greatest moves and froggy has a response to the main voting points he was going to post tomorrow. Guess nothing matters now but this is a disastrous way to end this tourney, i was taking a break and disabled all my notifications because of how stressed I was lately, so imagine my shock when I’m told Asuna and Javen have 6 votes out of nowhere while waiting for froggy to post. Did no one think it was a little weird I wasn’t answering anything when I usually always do?? Come on man… I feel betrayed.

That's mb dude, You said it was almost voting time earlier, and it was already pretty long as is so i kinda felt it was time too. If we did jump the gun a bit then that's on us

If it's any compensation, i'll offer to not list the match on any of the profiles if it seems unfair to you

 

[SSB64]

Very well. I shall commit to a peaceful transition of a non-vote and wait until the final arguments for frogman henceforth. But this debate has to end because I've been following the entire match and this seems so drawn out to the point where it is getting cumbersome.

As per the rules, the tournament is officially over, so revoking the vote now doesn't really matter.