Pretty sure turning off 40% of the brain would amount to more than just intelligence loss iirc. Some parts of the brain are necessary to function, aren't they?
Frogate can also take a breather and plan if she decides to do so. Hecate's brain seems vastly superior to Asuna, so it seems like it would be more of a detriment.
It's my personal Elite Four of FC/OC verses on the Wiki. It just feels right to me.
It's pretty vague, but in general i think this is referring to brain power more than anything, otherwise frogmen wouldn't struggle at all against any enemy that doesn't reist itPretty sure turning off 40% of the brain would amount to more than just intelligence loss iirc. Some parts of the brain are necessary to function, aren't they?
The difference is that asuna would be travelling through time as this happens. Frogate can't really plan in the same way if they are in the past. They definitely have better brains but i do think this is still useful for asuven if either one of them gets a breather from fighting, especially once asuna has deciphered how their powers work and what magic types/skills that she can feasibly make could best counter them. I'm not saying they'll be more tactical/successful this way lol, but i do think it'd make asuna's Power Creation more efficient at the very least.
Relying on precog only works against enemies which can't counter it, to which I've already proven Hecate is more than able to hit enemies who have it.
Hecate has pretty much negged tk ever since Mk. 1, simply having equal LS to her doesn't mean it's gonna work since she just outright resists the ability and Frogman can apply his own Class Z TK with his mind for a triple defense against thisAsuna could do the same with her own TK to stop hecate. She is a good degree into Class Z as well so she shouldn't give hecate a very easy time doing this either
Leaving Javen alone is not exactly wise, even for a moment, both Hecate and Frogman have ways to beat him a lot easier if Asuna isn't aroundFrogman would need to be able to keep with asuven to try this, which isn't a guarantee based on what i've said below. Plus, it's not like asuna is limited to one riftway at a time. She can summon dozens of them at once to redirect attacks, and using [Barrier of Chaos] as a temporary safe haven to take a breather is always an option if either of the duo is struggling
Combat Stage 4 can easily do it enough times though, especially when he can just be fed more and more energy from Hecate to replenish his stamina and put off the cooldowns as long as possible. Individual Frogman clones can also repeatedly rewind as others gain energy/recharge if necessary. You're forgetting that Hecate is capable of so much more when Frogman is on her side...Epic
Asuna's ally, javen, can though, and he has unfathomably more of an AP advantage than frogman and the spagmatrons
He wouldn't need the short break when Hecate can feed him this energy. it would go like this: Frogman/Frogman clone rewinds, other clone blasts Hecate (absorbs the energy), transfers it back to Frogman, repeat. they can do this basically as long as they need to, and every rewind Frogman can just leave out the 'Hecate feeding energy' part since he can pick and choose what gets rewound and what doesn't, creating essentially limitless stamina
How is Javen any faster? Either way he's susceptible to RL Speed Stealing too. Plus you are attempting to argue they can mitigate something stacked hundreds of times over that neither resist, I don't think this is a very big advantage that Asunaven would have. Plus in Stage 4, the effectiveness, speed, and range of it is waaay higher, and it is explicitly for Frogmen to be able to handle enemies that do exactly what Asuna is doing here, in fact, it works even better if the enemy is that much faster. Purple Skeletons are unable to snipe FU Androids with speed amps/superior speed in general thanks to RL Speed Stealing
I explained why using extra rewinds isn't a problem for Frogman as long as Hecate is around. Plus you are forgetting that there'd be thousandsI forgot to mention this earlier, but it is also possible that asuna could just... Break the digi-shilds without having them absorb her magic. The digi-shilds are clearly described as being similair to forcefields, which asuna can negate if she is physically superior. Considering that the spagmatrons are High 7-A and Asuna is at least High 6-A, their odds aren't great...
Of course, frogman can always rewind, but that's still another rewind spent on recovering the digi-shilds, and not the spagmatrons themselves when they can be nuked by [Barrier of Chaos] at any time.
- Forcefield Negation (Via [Final Smash] Skill. As a byproduct of overpowering magical abilities, provided asuna can become stronger than the target, she can break through defensive skills that would otherwise prove extremely difficult to break through, such as haruka's [Barrier of Despair].)
The point is that her reaction time is affected, and with how intelligent Hecate and Frogman are, they have higher odds of getting her before playback than not (they can use portals, warping, etc in 99.9% perfect ways). Plus it says that mind immunity only slows it down, this can harm the thinking/reactions of even mindless creatures/purple skeletons with magical mind protectionsAsuna has good resistances against mind manipulation already, and this seems to be described as Limited. Javen has the same thing and also exponentially higher AP. I don't think i could put into words how large the gap is lol, There's no way they won't be able to counter or get [Playback] off, especially if it only turns off 40% of their brain, which might affect javen given his intelligence is a bit inconsistent, but not asuna who is genius in battle iq, she'll still be smart enough to use it..
If Frogman were to use his far faster reaction and guide Laser Storm in such a way, hitting her prior is more than possible, especially since the effects sticks around and after some minutes will make Asuna basically mindless, but......there is all of this to go through. First of all, the fortune strat relies on a big if. You say that the cooldown is 'likely' to be lower, but this isn't confirmed, and still, judging by the limitations of the PoW magic system, that cooldown probably isn't THAT much lower anyway. Even if it's all the way down to five seconds, that's like an eternity, and all Frogman and Hecate need to do is curve the Laser Storm around for the duration, and then all of a sudden there's no more fortune helping her and still a million+ blasts around. Dodging a blast doesn't mean it'll just disappear into thin air. Keep in mind as well, that even narrowly avoid these blasts is still gonna deconstruct you, you have to be in the clear of them, and with the sheer numbers I don't know how Asuna or Javen especially would handle that. These abilities don't care about his 4-A durability. Red Laser's undeniability (against anything ignoring it with 100%) would also kick in and at least some small % would still affect them, even through intangibility.Asuna & Javen have numerous ways they could respond to this
Not only would skills such as [Intangible] make asuna pretty much untouchable for a brief period without a good degree of NPI (PoW magic can affect ghost-like beings, and using this, asuna was unable to be affected by haruka's attacks, time limit is around 10 seconds-ish) Asuna can also use [Fortune] to nudge the odds in their favor whenever they are in an especially dire situation, which, due to asuna's much higher XP level, should be more effective & potent, and likely a reduced cooldown, especially overtime where Reactive Evolution would kick in for asuna. Other than Limited Probability Manipulation that i've seen on Both Hecate & Spagmatrons profile (Both of which are either entirely defensive or only with specific digi-shilds) Neither of them actually bypass this in any written way, meaning this can definitely be used without interruptions, which is obviously huge for asuven
Asuna can also block these sorts of hits if needed as well. Because hecate & frogman aren't massively superior in AP, this should prove useful too
While asuna can't divert the golden rays from hecate, javen definitely has the LS & AP to do so, and with his Explosive Aura the lasers being diverted is very likely. They've never faced something of this magnitude from a stick figure of all things before, and with both asuna and javen doing this at once the effect would be maximised. Of course, asuna can always send the lasers through riftways too as another layer of defense.
- Attack Reflection, Damage Reduction, & Limited Invulnerability (Via Blocking and parrying. Similair to a video game, adventurers can do this to physical blows, provided they are at a similar or greater level of power than their attacker.)
- Shockwave Manipulation (Asuna's limit break also unleashed a shockwave that "Engulfed" The entirety of the grand colloseeum.)
As for what they'd do on the offensive, I imagine Asuna & Javen would join forces to combat this sort of threat. By combining their power into a beam thanks to asuna's Power Bestowal & Empowerment, They would have more than enough AP to divert the red laser cloud thanks to asuna's AoE and javen's range, all the while defending with a wide variety of abilities on top of their impressive agility, speed amps, and asuna's precognition. Their clones can also join the effort, either adding to the attack, or aiding in defending them against hecate & frogmans onslaught, either by creating 4-A forcefields, or, in the case of asuna's clones, potentially using [Reversal] to try and hit back at hecate & frogman if they are unable to avoid any attacks, giving Asuven another offensive option in such a dangerous situation. If aimed at either hecate or frogman, it would definitely discourage them from using conventional means to attack, as they could constantly take damage at least in some form this way.
There's obviously more than that, but this is long as is and i wanna keep it short lol. I imagine asuna would call this something like [Giga Counter] or something that sounds awesome to her, lol
- Enhanced Attack Reflection (Via [Reverse] Skill. While it is only active for a few seconds at a time, It can redirect 50% of any physical damage landed on asuna back towards an aggressor, though this is not able to redirect certain skills, such as [Negate], which do not physically impact her.)
I am yet to cover my new ideas for the star strategy...
The very moment exiting the portals slam down with all their might, further through the other portal casting a red saber 'Multi-Blade' alongside the hands which would slice through them and inflict decay burning, being similarly undetectable as KEY Spells thanks to a resistance to Information Analysis + Clairvoyance + Precognition (key Red Laser Spells used by Frogmen even in past/future scans seemed censored and altered to Red Stickmen analytical machines) and it was further argued here about how they can hardly be viewed even by someone with FAR better precog than Asuna (and since I keep bringing them up as similar, well surpassing Blood Sea Soldiers as well to a point it isn't even funny, according to all things known and all feats, Asuna's precog will not work for these attacks).Actually, now that you mention it...It's still pretty disadvantageous for them though if they can't actually stop her from using it, which isn't a guarantee from what i know. While she's in the dimension of time asuna has time to take a breather, as well as plan out what to do next. Asuna obviously still isn't as smart as them either, but the time she'll get will definitely help especially if she has no time to do so mid-fight
Golden Hecate's speed boost would be way beyond that gap, this is an ability she had in Mk. 1. Plus Reverse wouldn't be that useful, Hecate and Frogman can always just retake control of Golden Fire Lasers and Laser Storm, and if it simply transfers damages automatically Frogman's precog will inform him and Hecate and they would come up with a new way to use it instead, avoiding this transfer stat is childs play for their brains. Plus RL Speed Stealing Mode is still gonna work with a well-timed rewind, Asuna's speed amps simply won't be that useful. Frogman does indeed have the reactions, the rewind strat, and the brains to ensure it works.Asuna has encountered speed gaps like this before lol, especially since this is in brief bursts i don't see this helping very much at all, it might work on javen but asuna has many ways to protect him
That could be useful, but frogate will still have many of them supporting asuven which still benefits the latter duo, plus if need be, asuna's clones can use [Reversal] as described above to land hits if all other methods of getting through the spagmatrons don't work. I can see frogate simply avoiding them, but this is extremely difficult with their speed and therefore reactions to diverting beams and whatnot, and trying to do this will only slow them down even if they succeed. Frogman in particular will struggle with this because his laser storm has lots of projectiles to move out of the way...
It is unquestionably so, Frogman and Hecate's combined planning and mental might is easily hundreds of times stronger, likely even into the thousands considering Frogman's 26,000 year passive development of the mind and Hecate's feats, when combined, is just too large of a gap. It's to the point where it's pretty funny tbh, I don't see any method Asunaven could possibly plan around Hecate and Frogman when they have this big of an advantage
especially with the above revelations pertaining to playback, it feels like the tide has turned
I'll try replying to this hopefully todayRelying on precog only works against enemies which can't counter it, to which I've already proven Hecate is more than able to hit enemies who have it.
Hecate has pretty much negged tk ever since Mk. 1, simply having equal LS to her doesn't mean it's gonna work since she just outright resists the ability and Frogman can apply his own Class Z TK with his mind for a triple defense against this
Leaving Javen alone is not exactly wise, even for a moment, both Hecate and Frogman have ways to beat him a lot easier if Asuna isn't around
Combat Stage 4 can easily do it enough times though, especially when he can just be fed more and more energy from Hecate to replenish his stamina and put off the cooldowns as long as possible. Individual Frogman clones can also repeatedly rewind as others gain energy/recharge if necessary. You're forgetting that Hecate is capable of so much more when Frogman is on her side...
He wouldn't need the short break when Hecate can feed him this energy. it would go like this: Frogman/Frogman clone rewinds, other clone blasts Hecate (absorbs the energy), transfers it back to Frogman, repeat. they can do this basically as long as they need to, and every rewind Frogman can just leave out the 'Hecate feeding energy' part since he can pick and choose what gets rewound and what doesn't, creating essentially limitless stamina
How is Javen any faster? Either way he's susceptible to RL Speed Stealing too. Plus you are attempting to argue they can mitigate something stacked hundreds of times over that neither resist, I don't think this is a very big advantage that Asunaven would have. Plus in Stage 4, the effectiveness, speed, and range of it is waaay higher, and it is explicitly for Frogmen to be able to handle enemies that do exactly what Asuna is doing here, in fact, it works even better if the enemy is that much faster. Purple Skeletons are unable to snipe FU Androids with speed amps/superior speed in general thanks to RL Speed Stealing
According to Froggy in Hecate vs Gunnix, FU Android’s have reactions far surpassing body movements due to their mind in the soul Crystals, and Stage 4 well surpasses even the experienced Gunnix (and this is Combat Stage 4, even further beyond), they can instantly summon/create layered defensive plans which also convert to offense within the same moment, and this is much further enhanced when combined with Hecate's raw smarts. Plus, FU Androids and Frogmen themselves passively grow in intelligence over thousands of years, sharpening their already advanced minds to a point beyond mastery, at Stage 4's point being 26,000 years of this development, plus having a mental link to Hecate, he actually possesses reaction time potentially thousands of times beyond his body movement speed, easily enough to compensate:
I think the impact of the differences between the minds is being HUGELY underestimated lol
- 1st+ Level Intelligence: Gifted, higher with time, Preparation long-term passive (Original intelligence of the artificial FU soul generated into the crystal, which from that moment starts growing together with the Soul Crystal
Plus (yet again) Blood Sea Soldiers are still able to be hit by golden fire lasers despite having precog stacked among other options too, including Asuna's favorite option, portals (also summoned by the dozens), and with Frogman successfully copying those effects... the odds Asuna avoids Laser Storm is dangerously low. Frogman using superior mind/precog can also tell the Spagm's in advance, use a rewind when Asuna uses speed amps (reverting her speed to what it was prior) while keeping the command action, therefore wielding RL Speed Stealing Mode as normal (ignoring the fact that it should work anyway since that's what it's designed for)
I explained why using extra rewinds isn't a problem for Frogman as long as Hecate is around. Plus you are forgetting that there'd be thousands
The point is that her reaction time is affected, and with how intelligent Hecate and Frogman are, they have higher odds of getting her before playback than not (they can use portals, warping, etc in 99.9% perfect ways). Plus it says that mind immunity only slows it down, this can harm the thinking/reactions of even mindless creatures/purple skeletons with magical mind protections
...there is all of this to go through. First of all, the fortune strat relies on a big if. You say that the cooldown is 'likely' to be lower, but this isn't confirmed, and still, judging by the limitations of the PoW magic system, that cooldown probably isn't THAT much lower anyway. Even if it's all the way down to five seconds, that's like an eternity, and all Frogman and Hecate need to do is curve the Laser Storm around for the duration, and then all of a sudden there's no more fortune helping her and still a million+ blasts around. Dodging a blast doesn't mean it'll just disappear into thin air. Keep in mind as well, that even narrowly avoid these blasts is still gonna deconstruct you, you have to be in the clear of them, and with the sheer numbers I don't know how Asuna or Javen especially would handle that. These abilities don't care about his 4-A durability. Red Laser's undeniability (against anything ignoring it with 100%) would also kick in and at least some small % would still affect them, even through intangibility.
A simple High 6-A shockwave isn't going to help so much either, this would count against the anti-dodge tech which would can brute force it and Hecate's own air manip would be a good counter, since she has masterful control over it she can force funnels into the shockwave through which the Laser Storm can enter, and don't forget Frogman's attack has the same properties as the Golden laser now so all million+ blasts posses this homing capability. Frogman can also block Riftways with Red Laser Portals (which in the entire FU story show to negate other portal/teleportation means, Red Laser Undeniability applies) and Hecate's golden lasers can automatically dodge spawned portals from Blood Sea Soldiers. You also neglected to respond to it, but I've also already countered the javen aura:
Hecate is more than able to deal with passive enemy auras, since the Mk. 2 has the ability to actually literally steal enemy auras, like afterwards they just don’t have the aura anymore and she has it. In the Mk. 2, you had to look into its eyes, but the golden mech can sort of just do it immediately, especially if Javen uses it early when they would be close together. Ap difference won’t matter since Javen doesn’t resist that.
Now for the fun part. Since Asuna and javen have methods to survive the immense Golden Laser Storm combo and their large beam attack here, Frogman with his precog organ (which further connects with Hecate, basically giving them both precog), allows them both to see the capabilities of both teams clones in an even more clear way not just information on what they can do, but now, how they can do it as well), revealing their hellish combinations of abilities and power which even puts Stage 4 and Hecate on the ropes. As the laser Storm surges and Asuna and Javen fire their cannon, Frogman and Hecate prepare another offensive
Frogman using precog generates portals around his sides, further through the portals, Frogman casts:
This attack is even totally invisible to precog, Asuna won't detect it at all
- Hands hidden from the world - Red Saber blade re-animates as several giantic hands, which cannot be traced by any sense (like sight, hearing, 6th sense). The hands cause an extremely lower 'Decay Burning' effect as a trade for undetection. Sending AoE attacks (like sand waves) to notice "where particles disappear" seems as the only way of locating them.
Since Asuna needs to travel through the dimension of time for playback, and she has zero feats or mentions or implications at all in any previous Asuna thread that a clone could do this/take her place would the main one be killed, this looks like a pretty reliable wincon. Even with reversal, if it automatically sends 50% of damages back, Frogman easily survives (even if not, his main consciousness just switches to a different clone) and Frogman could rewind Hecate would she die, so this wouldn't work.
Actually, now that you mention it...
When the 'Red Laser ability pool' for 10-Evolution-Lines got established, the strongest spells called 'R.L. KEY masteries' adjusted to use this defensive feature offensively. The biggest examples of this are the adaptiveness of '2-Second-Rewind' to the targets it facing head-on, able to use 3.5rd dimension properties to rewind 3rd dimension targets, but would they be 3.5rd dimension instead (like Dragon Purple Skeleton Mages), '2-Second-Rewind' would adjust full 4th dimension properties for it.
Frogman can rewind any playback with this, as well do it even when Asuna exists in this '4th dimension', greatly reducing the usefulness of the thing, since she will no longer be able to use that time for planning and even fixing mistakes would be far more difficult, especially with Frogman's rewind being a KEY spell and possessing resistance to Information Analysis + Clairvoyance + Precognition (key Red Laser Spells used by Frogmen even in past/future scans seemed censored and altered to Red Stickmen analytical machines)
Golden Hecate's speed boost would be way beyond that gap, this is an ability she had in Mk. 1. Plus Reverse wouldn't be that useful, Hecate and Frogman can always just retake control of Golden Fire Lasers and Laser Storm, and if it simply transfers damages automatically Frogman's precog will inform him and Hecate and they would come up with a new way to use it instead, avoiding this transfer stat is childs play for their brains. Plus RL Speed Stealing Mode is still gonna work with a well-timed rewind, Asuna's speed amps simply won't be that useful. Frogman does indeed have the reactions, the rewind strat, and the brains to ensure it works.
It is unquestionably so, Frogman and Hecate's combined planning and mental might is easily hundreds of times stronger, likely even into the thousands considering Frogman's 26,000 year passive development of the mind and Hecate's feats, when combined, is just too large of a gap. It's to the point where it's pretty funny tbh, I don't see any method Asunaven could possibly plan around Hecate and Frogman when they have this big of an advantage
I hope you can pull something off here.I'll try replying to this hopefully today
Yeah, stage 4 frogman is probably a million times better at everything than the base android is and that’s not even an exaggeration, Javen’s lower intelligence does his team no favors. I also highly doubt he’ll be able to keep track of what’s going on.
Fair, but even then, that's not really an advantage when asuven can do the same thing if you remember how they dealt with cobalt long-term. Javen can supply him and asuna with everything they'd need to keep going with Imagination Manifestation on top of their already impressive stamina, like OP energy drinks, food, water, etc.
Asuna’s power bestowal & empowerment…
But even with a high EXP bar, 20,000 year old gunnix's are only "Decently" beyond their reaction speed, which is pretty vague and doesn't really describe much, but it isn't described as "Blazing" or anything either. Stage 4 frogman is only 6,000 years older, which not only doesn't seem that long for frogmen, but also lacks any further statements of higher reactions in that key. I again don't think there is nearly enough evidence to say that frogman's reactions are even hundreds of times faster than his own movements, let alone thousands. Especially when this was never brought up in the last match when reaction speed would be needed as far as i can remember Why does the cooldown matter? Like, yeah, it wouldn't be something like 5 seconds most likely, but at the speeds these 4 would be going the fight may as well be over in an instant if we saw it ourselves, but counting in real-time wouldn't be fair in this case if that's what you mean. I think it should be from their perspectives, which would be real-time to them, otherwise cooldowns wouldn't matter for anyone higher than like transonic lol...there is all of this to go through. First of all, the fortune strat relies on a big if. You say that the cooldown is 'likely' to be lower, but this isn't confirmed, and still, judging by the limitations of the PoW magic system, that cooldown probably isn't THAT much lower anyway. Even if it's all the way down to five seconds, that's like an eternity, and all Frogman and Hecate need to do is curve the Laser Storm around for the duration, and then all of a sudden there's no more fortune helping her and still a million+ blasts around. Dodging a blast doesn't mean it'll just disappear into thin air. Keep in mind as well, that even narrowly avoid these blasts is still gonna deconstruct you, you have to be in the clear of them, and with the sheer numbers I don't know how Asuna or Javen especially would handle that. These abilities don't care about his 4-A durability. Red Laser's undeniability (against anything ignoring it with 100%) would also kick in and at least some small % would still affect them, even through intangibility.
A simple High 6-A shockwave isn't going to help so much either, this would count against the anti-dodge tech which would can brute force it and Hecate's own air manip would be a good counter, since she has masterful control over it she can force funnels into the shockwave through which the Laser Storm can enter, and don't forget Frogman's attack has the same properties as the Golden laser now so all million+ blasts posses this homing capability. Frogman can also block Riftways with Red Laser Portals (which in the entire FU story show to negate other portal/teleportation means, Red Laser Undeniability applies) and Hecate's golden lasers can automatically dodge spawned portals from Blood Sea Soldiers. You also neglected to respond to it, but I've also already countered the javen aura:
Hecate is more than able to deal with passive enemy auras, since the Mk. 2 has the ability to actually literally steal enemy auras, like afterwards they just don’t have the aura anymore and she has it. In the Mk. 2, you had to look into its eyes, but the golden mech can sort of just do it immediately, especially if Javen uses it early when they would be close together. Ap difference won’t matter since Javen doesn’t resist that.
Now for the fun part. Since Asuna and javen have methods to survive the immense Golden Laser Storm combo and their large beam attack here, Frogman with his precog organ (which further connects with Hecate, basically giving them both precog), allows them both to see the capabilities of both teams clones in an even more clear way not just information on what they can do, but now, how they can do it as well), revealing their hellish combinations of abilities and power which even puts Stage 4 and Hecate on the ropes. As the laser Storm surges and Asuna and Javen fire their cannon, Frogman and Hecate prepare another offensive
Frogman using precog generates portals around his sides, further through the portals, Frogman casts:
This attack is even totally invisible to precog, Asuna won't detect it at all
- Hands hidden from the world - Red Saber blade re-animates as several giantic hands, which cannot be traced by any sense (like sight, hearing, 6th sense). The hands cause an extremely lower 'Decay Burning' effect as a trade for undetection. Sending AoE attacks (like sand waves) to notice "where particles disappear" seems as the only way of locating them.
Since Asuna needs to travel through the dimension of time for playback, and she has zero feats or mentions or implications at all in any previous Asuna thread that a clone could do this/take her place would the main one be killed, this looks like a pretty reliable wincon. Even with reversal, if it automatically sends 50% of damages back, Frogman easily survives (even if not, his main consciousness just switches to a different clone) and Frogman could rewind Hecate would she die, so this wouldn't work.
Even if hecate did get rid of it, it still doesn't eliminate the various other factors here. The explosive aura is just one piece of the puzzle.This... Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with people travelling through time at all
Having an ability that works on 3.5 dimensional beings doesn't inherently imply that you actually have the range or the AP to affect, well 4-D universes, so frogman would need to actually reach into the 4th dimension itself, but this is contradicted by the fact that frogmans range is at best High Universal When he'd need at least Universal+, and this is under favourable conditions too lol, but either way i doubt this would workThis isn’t entirely true, Javen can become more useful to Asuna thanks to the letters ability to empower others, kind of like team-attacks. They can do this whenever, so Asuna can amp Javen up at anytime
Javen will still be a big help as I’ve explained before, even if he’s not as smart.
debate
It is. It also kinda determines whether or not Frogate actually have a counter in this tournament other than Cobalt, and the duo of Dio and Clover. It's kinda nuts, being honest.This thread is actually insane, and the fact it is still ongoing is crazy.
Gonna read through this later because it looks like a
It is an advantage though, Frogate has higher stamina overall.
As if 6,000 years is a short time? Experienced Frogmen at a commander title are able to think up dozens of difficult battle solutions in fractions of a second, and considering how Hecate gives him the info at the start, this shows how he can be effective at planning a winning strat even when all things are considered. RL Speed Stealing can be started at the very beginning with the Spagm wall, and if we wanna go down that road Frogman's clones can spam Hecate with energy and make her insane not just with speed but in all ways (including reactions, which scale higher with absorbed power, which is usually the case for all V. Verse absorption), and she can command the spagm's instead through the telepathy, further with Frogman timing rewinds using his vastly superior smarts, he doesn't need his reactions to be that high for this.The age between stage 4 and gunnix isn't actually that big judging from how old most of these FU's seem to be
She's a living hyper-advanced mech, it makes sense to have extreme reactions, and again they will go higher through absorptionI'm not sure how hecate helps with reaction speed, but her intelligence seems to be aiding in processing speed, which is the closest thing you can get to reaction speed with being reaction speed i think, plus she doesn't have any higher reactions herself either
Even if not Hecate can steal it as soon as he turns it on, and if it threatens the earth, why haven't they 'pushed it away' yet...I don't think javen's aura is "Passive" perse, otherwise he'd destroy earth just by being in his super form
Digi-Shields would reflect it, and Digi-Shilds would also likely make Javen harm himself, further Frogman can pull a Cobalt and have Javen's physical attacks go through portals back to himself/Asuna, they can pretty much use portals for whatever they need and I've said many times (along with Froggy, who said it first) that RL portals can layer over the riftways and render them way less useful (precog showing where they will go/the possibilities of where Asuna spawns them) they are shown doing so to similar portals in the FU story, they have the feats to back up the claims here. Hecate also has Golden Saturn Waving to help.
If Frogman just starts RL Speed Stealing at the fight beginning thanks to Hecate's info analysis, they totally can overcome the speed. Plus no, Froggy confirmed to me that 2-sec-rewind works from 'virtually anywhere' (originally, Maxine herself created the spell from thousands of top tier time abilities, then taught the Red Laser Flower) like with Frogman's telepathy (to other Frogmen in other dimensions), so pocket realm is no problem.
if that's all she senses then there's no chance she'll know the nature behind any of these attacks, and in that case, how will she dodge it? Golden lasers can already land on precog/warping/portal spamming enemies and even then the RL portals can go over the riftways, and her precog won't help javen at every step (especially with no connected mind like Frogate). If Frogman were to summon gigantic DRAGON saber's right where the main Asuna and Javen stand, and then pulls a
When the 'Red Laser ability pool' for 10-Evolution-Lines got established, the strongest spells called 'R.L. KEY masteries' adjusted to use this defensive feature offensively. The biggest examples of this are the adaptiveness of '2-Second-Rewind' to the targets it facing head-on, able to use 3.5rd dimension properties to rewind 3rd dimension targets, but would they be 3.5rd dimension instead (like Dragon Purple Skeleton Mages), '2-Second-Rewind' would adjust full 4th dimension properties for it. Another example is 'Decay Burning', capable of spreading on the bodies of opponents easily with at least a small piece in the current dimension. At FU profiles, these attacks are marked red.This... Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with people travelling through time at all
Where's the proof this will work when Javen has 0 knowledge at all about the PoW magic system? I also doubt he's close to being as smart as the ones Asuna is hanging out with consistently, assuming they can hang with her.This isn’t entirely true, Javen can become more useful to Asuna thanks to the letters ability to empower others, kind of like team-attacks. They can do this whenever, so Asuna can amp Javen up at anytime
- Empowerment & Temporary Power Bestowal (Via Shizu or other allies. Can combine skills with another person to make them far stronger, like a tag-team attack.)
This is also a thing. Javen is pretty likely to be taken out imo
Hmmmmmmmm..... That sounds familiar, but I can't place my finger on it.....
Would that not qualify for Low 2-C then given that it can affect 4th dimensional boundaries? Even an infinite amount of 3rd dimensional power can't do that.
They both have endless forms of sustenance from this tho, both teams will benefit so it's kinda sorta equal footing
Well, for Laser Frogman in particular it may as well be, that's not much compared to their actual age, and it's just Low-Tier gunnix training timeframe too
Either way there still isn't much evidence of frogman's reactions being that much higher beyond High-Tier Gunnixes (Which are almost as old btw) only have reactions that are "Decently" above their movement speed which doesn't imply reaction speeds that high at all.That won't happen instantly, though. Frogman will need time regardless if it's effective or not, and that's time for asuna to get [Fortune] off.
Why does he need knowledge of PoW magic? It's empowerment
Javen also teams up with people like Colton and other epic gang members all the time. Having an ally by their side is not unfamiliar to either asuna or javen.I'm still not entirely convinced frogman could handle the speed difference, there's a lack of showings beyond mere "Higher reactions" statements that aren't described as immensely faster or anything. Precog obviously helps a lot but asuna will still be able to react to any RL portals that cover the riftways, plus her own precognition kinda balances this out especially when frogman has only bypassed analytical machines rather than instinctive precognition, and having a lack of instinctive action negation or something along the lines of that.
I've explained this many times before, but it's kind of like spidersense where she'll see an attack coming and dodge by pure instinct. If anything it's better than analytical machines because asuna does not to see any attacks beforehand to do this
I very highly doubt this is a strategy they'd go for when it wasn't something froggy really suggested lolIf this IS in-character for them to do by any chance, then while i certainly want this thread to keep going, i'm a tiny little bit concerned about how any duo here could get by rewind spams like this... If that could be explained to me that would be greatAlthough being highly chaotic and just little diary art, I still thought it could add some graphical representation here
1) In the first time fragment of battle, G.Hecate scans opponents while Frogman summons his Spagms + activates fear auras, while Asujaven mostly adapt to conceptual fear and make clones of themselves (inspired by waves of Spagms likely)
2) Here all the Javen + Asuna clones attack, but attacks get reflected or absorbed (Asuna uses Playback to avoid Gunnixes), nevertheless Frogman spamming rewind is sufficient for defenses to not drop completely while he scans Hecate's G.Laser attributes. G.Hecate meanwhile shoots Golden Lasers to reduce the number of opponent clones and prepares strategies + tells info to Frogman telepathically. The opponent clones are, however good at dodging, most of the Golden Lasers cannot hit them.
3) A while after the battle started, Frogman has his 81x rewinds for 2 seconds nearly depleted (and has to rewind some Spagms nuked by Asuna's whitespace), yet he already can spam the new Golden Laser Storm (the best defense is a deadly offense) while Hecate now launches golden lasers creating her clones from the golden projectiles themselves (as Vene mentioned) + her purple scanner copies some of Spagm's tech and main Hecate brainstorms imbutting it with her Golden mech. It's yet unknown how AsuJaven are replying to this, as to why they are drawn with question marks there with pencil (set to be redrawn once they reveal their reply)
As i've explained above i think it's more-so being able to interact with 4-D things like tesseracts, which is why they beat The Purple Skeleton forces, presumably through hax. Froggy is probably more fit to explain it though
This is starting to get a little clogged
This might just be me, but does spamming an attack which negates the opponent's action sound familiar to you? I mean, it's almost as if we've seen this before.....If this IS in-character for them to do by any chance, then while i certainly want this thread to keep going, i'm a tiny little bit concerned about how any duo here could get by rewind spams like this... If that could be explained to me that would be great
It definitely doesn't seem in-character for them at all as i've explained though. I don't think we'll DQ them if this is what you're implying, there's no way it'll just end. Vene doesn't own the character after all lol, im confident it'll be cleared up before long. I think it's just real late where vene lives
Hopefully. If this is something they would end up doing, then I definitely see this as grounds for DQ (Remember. Clover got DQ'd for practically the same reason as what Frogate might do.)It definitely doesn't seem in-character for them at all as i've explained though. I don't think we'll DQ them if this is what you're implying, there's no way it'll just end. Vene doesn't own the character after all lol, im confident it'll be cleared up before long. I think it's just real late where vene lives
Yeah, sadly don't have time to read this entire till tomorrow afternoon fullyApologies to my bro @Froggytron
Not that I fully agree with it and I will probably say decent arguments to it later, but seeing how Asuna has much stuff to argue and somewhat last in the shower of millions of GOLDEN + R.LASER lasers (both extremely haxed with each strike), AsuJaven really shows to be FC/OC elite here, they could aim to the page of strongest after this is over
Even with the little college break I have rn, I wanna extend on this further, as this is one honorable peak of Frogman's arsenal (and namely Combat Stage4 one's, which masters Red Sabers, also nicknamed Red Laser^2 blades, tens of thousands of years) to be able to pull ultimate moves like this once honorable opponents like AsuJaven show in his way:Frogman using precog generates portals around his sides, further through the portals, Frogman casts:
This attack is even totally invisible to precog, Asuna won't detect it at all
- Hands hidden from the world - Red Saber blade re-animates as several giantic hands, which cannot be traced by any sense (like sight, hearing, 6th sense). The hands cause an extremely lower 'Decay Burning' effect as a trade for undetection. Sending AoE attacks (like sand waves) to notice "where particles disappear" seems as the only way of locating them.
I mean if it's all equal isn't it just a non-point lolThey both have endless forms of sustenance from this tho, both teams will benefit so it's kinda sorta equal footing
Because Asuna would be feeding him Magic/Magic moves right? Bro won't know what to with thoseWhy does he need knowledge of PoW magic? It's empowerment
Since when? Abilities can be used in a spectrum of ways, it's more than easy for Hecate to just turn this on and then fly through tons of projectiles without a problem
plus you forget that most of Asuna's stuff would just be absorbed by her and this also includes wayward Laser Storm projectiles, so even if fortune turns those on her that equals free stat amps. Plus with a passive field of luck, it's also completely possible they curve around and immediately back to both enemies, not to mention Hecate's affinity for laser manipulation in the first place, she should have the advantage in that field
That, and they mainly the aforementioned time spam they have to stop Asuna from doing it in the first place, as well as the molecular fear, and Red Laser Portals, preventing escape through practically every means possible.
Is she travelling through time, or is time being rewound? Those are two completely separate things.
This seems very... excessive
This doesn't look very in-character at all. Frogman has a comic of how this fight would go (Albeit a very specific scenario it seems like tho lol) and he does not once say that frogman intercepts asuna's [Playback] skill despite, y'know, being the know-it-all of the verse, which further proves my point on that part, but he also never mentions using rewinds to this degree offensively. Only to rewind the spagmatrons which are his best defense.
In fact the only thing offensive he and hecate actually do here is the Golden Laser Storm which i've addressed already due to largely lacking a counter to [Fortune] Primarily.
If this IS in-character for them to do by any chance, then while i certainly want this thread to keep going, i'm a tiny little bit concerned about how any duo here could get by rewind spams like this... If that could be explained to me that would be great
Asuna is pretty much unaffected by the conceptual fear, froggy literally said it could be “mostly” overcome with willpower, which both of the duo has, plus even jack could still move against this very key of frogman despite not having it. It’s a bit hard to overstate how much willpower Asuna actually has, lol, She is WAY above conventional supernatural willpower dude… I don’t think this will be much of a problem for her in particular at all, plus Javen will be more confident thanks to Asuna’s social influencing for a good while, and even then it just makes him more willing to use his best stuff since he’ll definitely still move.
She’s legit just empowering Javen with it… That’s why it’s listed as that. He doesn’t need to know how to use it at all, he gets amped either way lol
Travelling through time, she goes to the 4th Dimension (Dimension of time as it’s called in-verse) to do it lol
Arguing against any FU character is no easy task lol, so surviving that combo of attacks is definitely impressive (The strat from the comic) which I go into detail on in previous pages on how asuven could likely counterNot that I fully agree with it and I will probably say decent arguments to it later, but seeing how Asuna has much stuff to argue and somewhat last in the shower of millions of GOLDEN + R.LASER lasers (both extremely haxed with each strike), AsuJaven really shows to be FC/OC elite here, they could aim to the page of strongest after this is over
We’ve still got more to give as well, this is true…
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Further, with hundreds of portals used, this becomes night-impossible to read with instinct alone. And did I mention Combat S4 Frogman has 2 Red Saber handles? He can land them 2x after another to hit all that's left. At last, with Hecate using her hard diff golden modes and having Spagm-like tentacles over the entire place + casting explosions with mind whenever she looks + much more Vene argued with already, and Hands hidden from the world which can be used against the originals (would they still barely evade this hell) being another variant instead of second Tree Saber, I can hardly see AsuJaven surviving like against the Golden Laser Storm, namely not after they used their invilability + luck manip there already (and it is in cooldowns now). Even another Combat Stage 4 Frogman fighting seriously would be with most odds hit by some of the thousands of tree branches abusing portals and being precog-proof. AsuJaven are truly admirable that Combat Stage 4 has to launch this, it's likely the beginning of his hard diff even.
In that case, Frogman shouldn't have a problem rewinding the action to stop it from happening within the present, right?
Also, this part was never addressed. Even if it's not in character, as long as it's a possibility, and that's really their only way of dealing with Asuna, they'll go for it.
Good luck.
There is no acausality negation on the FU pages, yet Frogman shouldn't have a problem rewinding the process of Playback itself (as I argued with this nearly at this threat's start). It's a struggle Asuna seems to keep the memories anyway.In that case, Frogman shouldn't have a problem rewinding the action to stop it from happening within the present, right?
My stance was that if Asuna travelled back through time, she isn't rewinding the present, so Frogate can still make actions while she's travelling into the past. Causality is something associated with time. Frogman rewinding time prevents the Cause of Asuna travelling back from occuring.
Then Frogman can do smaller "playbacks" as well with this:
Technically the objects could have data written on them past Frogman could decypher, this would allow to literally replicate playback to some degree
My pardons, I had to describe 'Tree Saber' with the full power and capability it hasWill reply once I can, might be a while tho
Take your time
Pretty much. Hard to go back in time in order to capitalize on your knowledge when the knowledge required suddenly changes.Then Frogman can do smaller "playbacks" as well with this:
Not by a great amount I assume, but with strategic intentions, he could change some things in the present by sending strategic objects into the right places in the past, and mess with what Playback's knowledge managed to gain
- limited Time Manipulation (now possess even "3-Second-Rewind) & limited Time Travel (able of sending small objects into the past of the area s4 Frogman is at)
This doesn't even seem like High-Diff. Frogate sound like they just shut down practically everything in Asunaven's arsenal without much trouble. After all, dodging the lasers isn't enough, and if one so much as even gets close, it's over, plus the many ways they have of guaranteeing the hit goes off.....
Not exactly true, Rayfire has made great arguments in the favor of Asuna and Javen (the thread is 3 pages long), the fact that froggy brought out tree saber at all speaks volumes about their team and proves that they are similarly matched in most cases, and methods to survive the lasers on their own for a while, they have ways to win but as I said frogate has those higher odds and the ability to make more progress on the other team
What realistically could Asunaven do to counter or win against Frogate? I don't see anything.
