[R3M2] Frogman & Hecate vs DIO & Clover [PLAYER 2 DISQUALIFIED]

[Chariot190]

I’m not sure about totally dying, but Frogman would lose if he just straight up ran out of energy

Lad, did the other dude not just say he has infinite stamina and energy?

or was walled off completely by something (save and load in this case),

Well, yeah that's true, but that's simply a draw if Clover can't follow up or exploit that.

and killing frogman’s core I believe can be done though pure ap, but stage 4 frogman’s obviously would take more ap than what either of these two opponents have.

Need NPI, you yourself mentioned that.

But considering the tourney allows 3-A’s, the whole core thing isn’t as busted as one may think in the tourney context. If you have AP, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s just basically impossible to snipe with conventional hax from distance, and higher willpower also empowers one further in making progress AP wise

I mean, I ain't the tourney dude, but I would like to think it's relative. Higher AP you go, less hax you get. Lower AP, the more hax you can get. To make it fair. Having a dude who just always invalidates any hax below him in terms of killing because apparently uncountable layered hax res to every hax, according to you, is uhm?

Look I'm not saying that's unfair or broken, but I would definitely say that's way the **** better than what Dio and Clover have individually. Dio just gets the chance to use his stuff because of Clover's support via saves and loading.

Like let's not pretend Team A doesn't have stuff just as dumb as Clover

 

[SSB64]

I mean, tbf, IF Frisk had a much worse teammate and Clover was the one I was seeing complained about first

So does that mean Hecate gets eliminated too? After all, it was determined that if Clover was eliminated due to being OP, Hecate would suffer the same problems as Clover due to literally no one in the tournament being able to stop them and Frogman with Clover being gone.

If you want to argue that Hecate and Frogman aren't too broken, you'll have to come up with a character in this tournament who can feasibly beat them and isn't completely stonewalled.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

So does that mean Hecate gets eliminated too? After all, it was determined that if Clover was eliminated, Hecate would suffer the same problems as Clover due to literally no one in the tournament being able to stop them and Froggtbot.

That still simply isn’t true

 

[SSB64]

Not to mention, Clover actually loses to more non-matching verse characters in this tournament than Hecate.

 

[SSB64]

That still simply isn’t true

Again. Name me a character other than Cobalt (Because it's another of your own characters), Clover (Because they're eliminated), and Max (Because as I've already explained, Max can't really deal with Hecate fast enough) that beats Hecate (Not to mention that Frogman exists).

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Again. Name me a character other than Cobalt (Because it's another of your own characters), Clover (Because they're eliminated), and Max (Because as I've already explained, Max can't really deal with Hecate fast enough) that beats Hecate (Not to mention that Frogman exists).

how about Asuna and Javen

 

[SSB64]

how about Asuna and Javen

And if Hecate wins that? Will you allow Hecate to be DQ'd then?

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

And if Hecate wins that? Will you allow Hecate to be DQ'd then?

That’s the championship match though… at that point, it wouldn’t matter. I think Asuna and/or Javen would have good odds to beat Hecate 1v1, if that means anything. Cobalt was also a good deal better than Hecate, it’s just that frogman is a better teammate than destiny so it evens itself out. Plus as you said frogman exists and above all this is a team tourney

I don’t think this is a conversation for the forum anyhow

 

[SSB64]

That’s the championship match though… at that point, it wouldn’t matter.

Then if you can't come up with a good reason for who can actually beat Frogate, you shouldn't be saying that Clover deserves to be DQ'd. If anything, Frogate should be more deserving of being DQ'd in that match.

you said frogman exists and above all this is a team tourney

Again. Goku Black would completely curb Clover. The only reason they didn't was because of DIO. Again. It's an equal case to Frogate Vs Max, but Frogate were dealing with a character who actually beats Clover with possessing ridiculous Luck Hax (Aka, someone far more broken than Goku Black), and yet they still won despite that via spamming BFR heals.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Then if you can't come up with a good reason for who can actually beat Frogate, you shouldn't be saying that Clover deserves to be DQ'd. If anything, Frogate should be more deserving of being DQ'd in that match.

Again. Goku Black would completely curb Clover. The only reason they didn't was because of DIO. Again. It's an equal case to Frogate Vs Max, but Frogate were dealing with a character who actually beats Clover, and yet they still won despite that via spamming BFR heals.

Have you read that thread? Max actually stomps Hecate, that entire match was 100% frogman arguments, and even then it was an extremely high diff match. I think you are holding frogate in too high of a regard here

 

[SSB64]

Have you read that thread? Max actually stomps Hecate, that entire match was 100% frogman arguments, and even then it was an extremely high diff match. I think you are holding frogate in too high of a regard here

Remind me again how Max does that with the Luck Button. Furthermore, how is it Extreme Diff if Max's button has no way to kill Frogman?

 

[SSB64]

BTW, even if Max could somehow beat Frogate, the same fate would await Dio and Clover.

Basically, in order to argue that Frogate shouldn't be eliminated, you'll need to come up with some way that Dio and Clover beat Max while Frogate can't. If you can't, I see no reason as to why Frogate should also be eliminated.

 

[SSB64]

BTW, Max should've also been eliminated due to winning via absurd Luck shenanigans. But guess what? He wasn't. Why? Because Frogate won. I bet if they lost, Max would've been eliminated for winning due to Luck shenanigans.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

BTW, Max should've also been eliminated due to winning via absurd Luck shenanigans. But guess what? He wasn't. Why? Because Frogate won. I bet if they lost, Max would've been eliminated for winning due to Luck shenanigans.

No he would have just won

Idk what your problem is. This is over already, the next match has started and this is just needlessly stirring more drama at this point

 

[SSB64]

No he would have just won

Prove that.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I think we should just stop this Undertale in tournaments stuff. Having a free reset button whenever you lose kind of ruins the point. Plus there’s the stuff about characters in game who don’t even fight their enemies.

 

[Rayfire]

Remind me again how Max does that with the Luck Button. Furthermore, how is it Extreme Diff if Max's button has no way to kill Frogman?

Gonna drop in for a sec to hopefully help out with whats going on

Would skill and time stuff really matter when the help button bends the outcome of an event despite evil max’s powers and the fact that sister Hope had basically already lost? The help button also gives max absurd skill as well like it did here, so any experience advantage frog has is probably irrelevant as soon as it’s pressed. The help button also induces causality manipulation, which probably stops any time shenanigans on it’s own, that and the fact that the help button also gives an enemy an instant effect, like when evil max had no time to react to it, so frogman using time manipulation is questionable at best.

The help button isn't really something that hecate can beat from what i found after countless hours of watching brainrot

Frogman has never dealt with this sort of thing before, at least in combat, so it was entirely new to him. He had to rely on his resistances to not immediately, you know, die, and they still had to get past the insane amps (particularly skill) that it gives him. Frogman had quite the time dealing with this, which was why the thread went on for two pages. You can check out the thread for more details

Max is eliminated anyway, so i don't think it really matters now.

 

[SSB64]

Idk what your problem is. This is over already, the next match has started and this is just needlessly stirring more drama at this point

I'm not supporting a tournament that pulls bias for one side and contradicts its own logic.

I think we should just stop this Undertale in tournaments stuff. Having a free reset button whenever you lose kind of ruins the point. Plus there’s the stuff about characters in game who don’t even fight their enemies.

Maybe having a free button that guarantees your victory shouldn't be allowed either. Too bad that character lost to Frogate. Otherwise they would've been eliminated for being too broken.

 

[MintyBoi1]

I'm not supporting a tournament that pulls bias for one side and contradicts its own logic.

Maybe having a free button that guarantees your victory shouldn't be allowed either. Too bad that character lost to Frogate. Otherwise they would've been eliminated for being too broken.

I think you’re taking this way out of proportion. Last I checked, Max wasn’t eliminated. Plus at least Max can still die.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I'm not supporting a tournament that pulls bias for one side and contradicts its own logic.

It’s fine if that’s what you think, but that’s not what’s going on lol.

I don’t like drama, so I’m dropping from this conversation now. The finals thread is up and going, so that’s where the focus will be

 

[SSB64]

Max is eliminated anyway, so i don't think it really matters now

And that right there is why I won't be supporting this tournament. Here's hoping Asunaven win now that I actually want them to get the W for once.

 

[SSB64]

It’s fine if that’s what you think, but that’s not what’s going on lol.

So then this tournament doesn't count. Glad we agree.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think we should just stop this Undertale in tournaments stuff. Having a free reset button whenever you lose kind of ruins the point. Plus there’s the stuff about characters in game who don’t even fight their enemies.

Ehh, that only extends to humans and super determined characters in UT, most monsters' only gimmick is their minor SOUL damage and that's about it.
But yes, pacifistic characters like IF Frisk and Pacifist Clover don't really work in Tournaments.

 

[SSB64]

But yes, pacifistic characters like IF Frisk and Pacifist Clover don't really work in Tournaments.

Thing is, this was Genocide Clover, not Pacifist.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Thing is, this was Genocide Clover, not Pacifist.

I was just talking in general.

 

[SSB64]

I was just talking in general.

Either way, if Frogate win the Finals, I'm not counting it due to anti-Undertale bias and shenanigans throughout the entire tournament.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Either way, if Frogate win the Finals, I'm not counting it due to anti-Undertale bias and shenanigans throughout the entire tournament.

not counting it is crazy considering you're not the host of the tourney

The way I see it, full unrestricted time hax was explicitly above the tourney hax limit and these two had that and somehow got into the tourney. Disqualifying these two seems like the bare minimum I can do.

 

[Chariot190]

not counting it is crazy considering you're not the host of the tourney

The way I see it, full unrestricted time hax was explicitly above the tourney hax limit and these two had that and somehow got into the tourney. Disqualifying these two seems like the bare minimum I can do.

I pray to god you didn't just say Dio having like 11 seconds of time stop constitues as "unrestricted time hax", in a match against a dude who ignores it, and some dude who apparently has uncountable resistances to everything ever and also cant actually be perma defeated without NPI raw AP combined because no hax ever will work, who also has stuff that works in time stop anyway, is to much.

At least be consistent.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

I pray to god you didn't just say Dio having like 11 seconds of time stop constitues as "unrestricted time hax", in a match against a dude who ignores it, and some dude who apparently has uncountable resistances to everything ever and also cant actually be perma defeated without NPI raw AP combined because no hax ever will work, who also has stuff that works in time stop anyway, is to much.

At least be consistent.

DIO isn't even the one I have a problem with here. His teammate can rewind time whenever they die without fail no matter what.

 

[SSB64]

not counting it is crazy considering you're not the host of the tourney

The way I see it, full unrestricted time hax was explicitly above the tourney hax limit and these two had that and somehow got into the tourney. Disqualifying these two seems like the bare minimum I can do.

The ability is contingent on willpower, so Asuna's superior willpower negates Clover's power, so ironically, by this logic, you disqualified a busted character to let two even more busted characters through.

Clover cannot use this power against Max due to the Help Button always resulting in Clover losing, meaning Max wins due to luck shenanigans (I wonder why Max wasn't eliminated due to this if it isn't Anti-Undertale/Pro-Frogate bias), especially since Frogate + Max + Clover is a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario. Is that not what makes a Tourney fair?

Goku Black being Acausal thanks to the Time Ring as well as having FAR superior Strength would allow Goku Black to knock Clover unconscious. This wouldn't kill Clover, so the ability wouldn't activate.

Clover can't even hope to touch Cobalt due to the absurd amount of abilities she has that outright negate what Clover can do to even attack.

DIO wouldn't help in any of these Clover L matchups except Goku Black.

Meanwhile, Frogate doesn't lose to anyone in this tournament, and I bet if Max beat them, he would've been eliminated due to Luck/Plot shenanigans. Speaking of Max, Frogate is thr only matchup that he loses, and even then, it was High-Extreme Diff.

I pray to god you didn't just say Dio having like 11 seconds of time stop constitues as "unrestricted time hax", in a match against a dude who ignores it, and some dude who apparently has uncountable resistances to everything ever and also cant actually be perma defeated without NPI raw AP combined because no hax ever will work, who also has stuff that works in time stop anyway, is to much.

At least be consistent.

Thank you!

 

[SSB64]

I mean, I ain't the tourney dude, but I would like to think it's relative. Higher AP you go, less hax you get. Lower AP, the more hax you can get. To make it fair. Having a dude who just always invalidates any hax below him in terms of killing because apparently uncountable layered hax res to every hax, according to you, is uhm?

Look I'm not saying that's unfair or broken, but I would definitely say that's way the **** better than what Dio and Clover have individually. Dio just gets the chance to use his stuff because of Clover's support via saves and loading.

Like let's not pretend Team A doesn't have stuff just as dumb as Clover

Again. THANK YOU!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The ability is contingent on willpower, so Asuna's superior willpower negates Clover's power, so ironically, by this logic, you disqualified a busted character to let two even more busted characters through.

Clover cannot use this power against Max due to the Help Button always resulting in Clover losing, meaning Max wins due to luck shenanigans (I wonder why Max wasn't eliminated due to this if it isn't Anti-Undertale/Pro-Frogate bias), especially since Frogate + Max + Clover is a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario. Is that not what makes a Tourney fair?

Goku Black being Acausal thanks to the Time Ring as well as having FAR superior Strength would allow Goku Black to knock Clover unconscious. This wouldn't kill Clover, so the ability wouldn't activate.

Clover can't even hope to touch Cobalt due to the absurd amount of abilities she has that outright negate what Clover can do to even attack.

IF Frisk also beats Clover due to having more DT, so they sorta just null the latter's SAVE n LOAD powers lol

 

[Chariot190]

DIO isn't even the one I have a problem with here. His teammate can rewind time whenever they die without fail no matter what.

Didn't blud say they need to be cognizant to rewind time?
if it's automated on death, i kinda get it, that's like my pocket MM wank in action.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Didn't blud say they need to be cognizant to rewind time?
if it's automated on death, i kinda get it, that's like my pocket MM wank in action.

They can LOAD back after death, but they can't do so when they're knocked out and such.

"Without fail no matter what" is wrong though, it's dependent on Willpower/Determination.
Asgore in canon beat 6 Humans who had SAVE n LOAD powers by just killing them over and over again until they gave up.

 

[Chariot190]

They can LOAD back after death, but they can't do so when they're knocked out and such.

"Without fail no matter what" is wrong though, it's dependent on Willpower/Determination.
Asgore in canon beat 6 Humans who had SAVE n LOAD powers by just killing them over and over again until they gave up.

That's obnoxious and broken but if it's just kill them to the point it breaks will, a handful could get past it ig?

 

[SSB64]

IF Frisk also beats Clover due to having more DT, so they sorta just null the latter's SAVE n LOAD powers lol

Fair. Unlike Frisk though, Clover is pretty helpless against foes if their ability is nullified.