[R3M2] Frogman & Hecate vs DIO & Clover [PLAYER 2 DISQUALIFIED]

[VeneficaAuthor]

Based on what? Dio has 3 methods to do so. Resisting one method isn't a free pass for another method.

Frogman's body can fight without thinking, cells have their own backup intelligence and their consciousness can be held within red laser aura. Further stages (like stage3 capable of holding consciousness within red laser aura alone, transfer energy + information remotely between their cells, and compress the energy into super small objects/body pieces) show to transport memories/experience/big amounts of power via simple blood cell, or even atoms. Unless these methods can effect something like an 'aura', he shouldn't be able to effect frogman

So? Freezing like, causes cellular decay. He has to actually survive it or be cognizant enough to do that after the fact. Just because he can emit high heat, doesn't mean he can do so to negate freezing if said freezing ***** him up to a point he's completely incaped.

'With their body composed of supercells adjusted to their soul & mind, Laser Frogmen can transform most % of their body into specific body parts, such as muscles for a punch, or a brain while thinking, granting them an immense advantage in any activity they are doing. Supercells are further showing a potential to change back from being weakened or transmuted into stone and different materials, as long as Frogman's brain/thinking commanding works.'

This information is from Stage 1, and as this is Stage 4, the proficiency is easily hundreds of times more proficient. Frogman not only resists it anyway, but can also just change back 'cellular decay' or whatever.

Time Stop. Is his go to. TW exists.

All of Frogman's stuff works in time stop, it was one of the very first things said here.

'He still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).'

Dio doesn;'t have transmutation, he has biomanip.

That's even easier for Frogman to resist given the information above. He can essentially replace his entire outer body through self-biological manipulation and grow immense amounts of new/custom body parts, and if Dio does this to clones he risks having it transferred back to himself (Frogman would activate precog and be able to see Dio's abilities, considering his intellect, there's no way he wouldn't activate transferal on his first clones), something he has no resistance to.

If their brain/thinking works is the problem, most of Dio's shit effects one's cognitive ability.

I only see two instances of it on the profile, but Frogman can grow other brains if such a thing is necessary. I'm also not convinced Dio would be able to affect Frogman this way if he just holds his consciousness within his aura, especially considering frogman can fight at the same capacity without actually thinking in the first place

Not how this works.
"Shouldn't be a problem" is not "it won't be a problem".

Fine, it won't be a problem then. He can use TP Deferoid if Dio manages to do the 'vampire essence' thing, which the profile says is what turns people to zombies.

Rewind is useless if he's been made a zombie, at that point he becomes an ally. Backup clones coo, why can't Dio do that to them too? The fight is going to be in time stop at basically all times. Frogman, as established early in thread, can't just do whatever in time stop. You're acting like he'd have all these options out and set up, when really, he's never gonna get the chance.

Not if such a thing would be rewound first, not to mention it's highly unlikely he'd become a zombie. Plus it's literally said he can spam Red Laser stuff in stopped time without burning stamina to actually move, and this includes R.L. portals and such (in Stage 4 capable of warping 20000KM away with no charge). Frogman has astonishing accuracy and is exceedingly beyond Dio's own intellect (without even mentioning his thinking is thousands times faster than his body), and The World can't protect him from all of it. If Dio is gonna try affecting all the clones, he'll become a zombie himself via damage transferal.

Rewind isn't an issue if freezing incaps, one of several mindhax incaps, or he's made an ally, or...

I don't see any of them being an issue. I've already mentiond the mind stuff, which I only actully see two of on the profile. I guess the third one is his fearhax, which Frogman also resists. The FU unit's destiny is to face foes millions and millions of times stronger in AP, inclduing towering ones like the Purple Skeletons, who posseses fear auras/precense and numerous hax spells on top of this. Frogman could also empathic manip himself and Hecate to prevent fear sheninigans.

Class G actually, just hasn't been updated, atm Dio is 5 digit Class M anyhow based on a previous thread, though the 5 digit Class M feat has also been recalced to about 170000 tons.

Well, luckily Frogman's ally is Class Z and will assist him. He can communicate with her through telepathy and her resistance to time stop has way less strings attached, so she can actually move and act completely normally.

Up to what extent, I want hard values.

Stage 5 Frogman, the next evolution, is completely beyond the likes of Gunnix (Class E), who easily transport FU nuke rockets and yellow crate-boxes in FU XXL-Hybrid tanks, which allow the storing of a theoretically unlimited count of items, some being stated to weigh more than planet's total athmoshpheres. Considering Stage 4 Frogman and Gunnix are both 4th stage evolkutions, such a thing is easily achieved. There are ten stages total of Frogman, reaching higher than Stage 5 LS would be overkill considering these facts

Also didn't even comment on the fact Dio can just like, bypass literally all of that and instant kill by draining his life force.

It won't be a problem. Frogman's true existense lies in his Soul-Core, their Soul Cores (where the AI degree is located) possess Red Laser resistances. Red Laser Crystals/Soul Crystals show to possess immense quantum of resistances against non-close willpower-connected attacks/other negative influences, being trained to case-by-case seemingly downscale them at the very lowest concept, the 0th dimension, passively. Regrown crystals having done this against millions of techniques / their uncountably layered and negation-focused versions are said to have established an 'inner world perception of the outside world.' This makes the core itself essentially invulnerable to all of Dio's hax, but rthe body itself is still vulnerable. The best way to defeat Frogman is to wear his body and force the core into Self-BFR protections, and continue beating Frogman as he returns until the stamina is gone, but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

That's cool and all except Clover's time rewind outclasses his by far, whom is actively aiding Dio.
Prove Frogman can even retain any of this knowledge or plan to compensate after a potent "rewind" like RESET?

Even if he can't, Dio wouldn't either so they'd do the same things to each other until the end of time.

I did say DIO could do that. Plus the 10 meter distance at the start means DIO's 10 meter range will prove immediately effective in terms of spawning The World right in front of Frogman.

This assumes Dio could overcome Frogman's reaction, which is extrmely unlikely. Just as easily as Dio would spawn The World, Frogman can spawn R.L portals and get a significant range away (or, if The World actually does succesfully get to and destroy the Frogman body, considering his first move is to summon clones the backup would take affect, which is a Type 4 immortality) and THEN he could portal, alongside this summoning a line of AT Shielding between Frogman and the portals at a microscopic distance between each other to further complicate Dio's action. FU Android’s (and Frogmen, being superior to those, obviously have superior versions as well) have reactions far surpassing body movements due to mind in soul Crystals operating faster, useful to summon stuff like portals in critical moments.

Dio and Clover also both lack a resistance to fear manipulation, and Stage 4 Frogman has an aura which not only induces feelings of respect in those aura, but also has a terrifying sound even without activating extra stuff. But that's nothing, besides a reset I don't see any defense they'd have for this:

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates own consciousness in beings cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.

Then name me a way in which Asunaven can actually beat Hecate and Frogman. Furthermore, name me a character in this Tournament who could feasibly beat Hecate. Because Clover would lose to Goku Black or Max's luck button I'll tell you that much. You even admitted yourself that Cobalt, a character who is weaker overall and in a much worse position than Hecate, basically counters everything Asunaven have, and she only lost on a technicality because Destiny got taken out. If Asuna and Javen combined can't win against Hecate, who really can?

Literally Cobalt lol. And how about Dio too? I think he could do it but Frogman's presence makes it more difficult, though Clover beating Hecate outright would be a big stretch. She's way above Hecate in hax and even pure stats so I still don't know where you are coming from. Plus I don't see Clover losing to either opponents considering what you've said about his reset capacity and timeline control. That stuff is above probability.

That, or nuke Clover with attacks fast and plentiful enough to get rid of them before they can think of using it.

I suppose that's possible considering Hecate's great danmaku capabilities and her immense ability to make attacks home in on opponents vias laser curving and anti-dodge tech (even preventing telekinesis from diverting her attacks even in slimy Mk. 1)

 

[SSB64]

but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

As mentioned, Clover could SAVE over any success DIO has and RESET the failures DIO has. This shouldn't be too big of a problem since Hecate can't permanently put down Clover.

Literally Cobalt lol

Ah yes. The only character in this Tourney who could beat your OP Veneficaverse character. Another of your OP Veneficaverse characters. Not the best argument you could've made for that to say the least.

And how about Dio too? I think he could do it

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

I suppose that's possible considering Hecate's great danmaku capabilities and her immense ability to make attacks home in on opponents vias laser curving and anti-dodge tech (even preventing telekinesis from diverting her attacks even in slimy Mk. 1)

Basically. She has really good Danmaku, and although Clover is no slouch in the Danmaku dodging department, and has even outlasted an enemy with multiple homing attacks at once from enemies he couldn't damage in the form of Axis (Perhaps there's someone else I'm forgetting), and also Zenith Martlet (If you've seen the fight, dodging that crap is really impressive), it isn't enough for Clover to dodge her Danmaku casually, although this can be somewhat mitigated by the Golden Coffee item or the Coffee Bean ammo, both of which make Clover quite a bit faster than normal. The latter actually boosts their Speed whenever they shoot.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

He doesn't need to. Mind hax is enough.

 

[Chariot190]

Frogman's body can fight without thinking, cells have their own backup intelligence and their consciousness can be held within red laser aura.

2 of Dio's methods alter the cellular physiology of a target so...?

Further stages (like stage3 capable of holding consciousness within red laser aura alone, transfer energy + information remotely between their cells, and compress the energy into super small objects/body pieces) show to transport memories/experience/big amounts of power via simple blood cell, or even atoms. Unless these methods can effect something like an 'aura', he shouldn't be able to effect frogman

Actually, this is Part 3 Dio right? He has NPI himself, that can, in fact, interact with auras.
If it was Part 1 he'd be unable tho.

'With their body composed of supercells adjusted to their soul & mind, Laser Frogmen can transform most % of their body into specific body parts, such as muscles for a punch, or a brain while thinking, granting them an immense advantage in any activity they are doing. Supercells are further showing a potential to change back from being weakened or transmuted into stone and different materials, as long as Frogman's brain/thinking commanding works.'

This information is from Stage 1, and as this is Stage 4, the proficiency is easily hundreds of times more proficient. Frogman not only resists it anyway, but can also just change back 'cellular decay' or whatever.

Why does he resist it? It doesn't just decay, it literally alters the very species.
"hundreds of times" is just useless yap if it isn't backed by feats.

All of Frogman's stuff works in time stop, it was one of the very first things said here.

It was also said it takes extensive energy.

When the fight is going to be, effectively, in a constant state of stopped time, I want proof he can do everything you're claiming without issue, contrary to the alleged fact time stop is draining on him.

'He still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).'

Except TW exists, and Frogman lacks the capability to interact or even perceive it. Literally just use TW as a shield. Or as mentioned, manhandle with LS.

That's even easier for Frogman to resist given the information above.

The information is quite literally insufficient given Dio's biomanip works not only at a cellular level, aka Frogman's negation of it being "well he can control his cells", is invalidated, but even the DNA.

He can essentially replace his entire outer body through self-biological manipulation and grow immense amounts of new/custom body parts, and if Dio does this to clones he risks having it transferred back to himself (Frogman would activate precog and be able to see Dio's abilities, considering his intellect, there's no way he wouldn't activate transferal on his first clones), something he has no resistance to.

Already a proble, "outer body", Dio's biomanip can effect the whole body to be a cellular level, altering the very species if need be.

The moment your argument hinged on cellular body control, it already fell through.

Dio resists all his own abilities and can walk off being blown to bits so, not really a problem.

I only see two instances of it on the profile, but Frogman can grow other brains if such a thing is necessary.

No he can't? If his brain and conscious is compromised, why would he be able to grow another? He wouldn't think to do that because he's a slave now. The funny cell thing, as stated, is a nonfactor because several of Dio's options effect down to that level anyway.

I'm also not convinced Dio would be able to affect Frogman this way if he just holds his consciousness within his aura,

NPI.

especially considering frogman can fight at the same capacity without actually thinking in the first place

So can several every Stand users. And his stuff works just fine on them.

Also you seem to be ignoring the fact it doesn't matter if he has bootleg uktra instinct, if his now compromised mind goes "damn, im on Dio's side now".

Fine, it won't be a problem then. He can use TP Deferoid if Dio manages to do the 'vampire essence' thing, which the profile says is what turns people to zombies.

He can also do so by just draining their life energy.

And then what? Frogman's profile literally says that has a cool down, he gets rid of it once, then Dio does it again. Because TW has him in a chokelock.

Not if such a thing would be rewound first,

Why would it be rewound if he's already effected, the stuff I'm mentioning like, literally makes him a slave that acts in Dio's benefit, he wouldn't undo it if he's affected?

not to mention it's highly unlikely he'd become a zombie.

Again, if it's cellular yap, it'd work just fine because 1. Life force drain can be used inturn. 2. The essence would work because dude's ability has a cooldown. 3. Zombification is cellular.

Also unlikely isn't "will not", I want actual evidence not "well it might not".

and this includes R.L. portals and such (in Stage 4 capable of warping 20000KM away with no charge).

Clover LOADS. Or Dio just like, immortalities it, idk, dude's profile is messy.

Frogman has astonishing accuracy

Reminder The World has accuracy beyond Star Platinum, who's accuracy is so good, it could sense a sneak attack from a cell-sized enemy, from behind.

They both have good accuracy lad.

and is exceedingly beyond Dio's own intellect (without even mentioning his thinking is thousands times faster than his body),

Nice try, speed is equal. And if it wasn't, Dio would blitz the shit out of him because he's blitz level over 25,000c. And, The World's speed exceeds Dio's, so if you pull the "only combat speed is equalized" thing, Dio's own thought speed exceeds his combat ability (Could react to a pissed off Star Platinum) and TW is like a blitz level above Dio himself.

and The World can't protect him from all of it.

Why? You just pulled the funny speed discrepency thing, in which case, TW literally does because he's >>> Dio in combat speed, and >>> Frogman.

If Dio is gonna try affecting all the clones, he'll become a zombie himself via damage transferal.

This is just dumb, no offense. "Wow the dude who literally has every thing that makes a zombie, a zombie, except way worse, would be turned into a zombie".

Yeah, and then what? It'd be so useless Dio wouldn't even realize he got something sent back on him because he's ALREADY got that shit.

I don't see any of them being an issue.

Your argument hinges on aura, which Dio and TW can effect. And cell stuff, which Dio can also effect.

I've already mentiond the mind stuff, which I only actully see two of on the profile.

Hypnosis. Spores (cell sized btw)/Flesh Buds (same type of mindhax for these two), Life Drain/Essence.
Three different types, using different mechanics to do so.

You brought up fear hax below tho, so ig 4.

I guess the third one is his fearhax, which Frogman also resists.

No but good point. Dio's fearhax is layered. TW is stated in 6251 to have the most frightening aura of any Stand in existence, even without manifesting. And was able to make dudes who res fear hax and have ample degrees of supernatural will, piss themselves, freeze up, etc.

Unless Frogman has exceptionally potent fearhax res, Dio can literally just stand there and do nothing and incap him.

The FU unit's destiny is to face foes millions and millions of times stronger in AP, inclduing towering ones like the Purple Skeletons, who posseses fear auras/precense and numerous hax spells on top of this. Frogman could also empathic manip himself and Hecate to prevent fear sheninigans.

Why? He'd be to frightened to do anything. Unless he had prior knowledge to do so before Dio whims TW's menacing on.

And, as said, TW is directly stated t have the greatest fear hax of any Stand, and it causes those with supernatural will and already res to fearhax, to either become so scared they can't think of anything, think they're gonna die, and just stand there struggling not to vomit. Or they run away.

It isn't an AP thing, it's flatout stated to be aura, hax, and activates even if Dio himself isn't around or with manifesting The World fully. Arguing "he isnt scared when fighting dude with big stat gap" isn't an argument, and even then, wouldn't matter because Dio can fearhax dudes who don't flinch at fighting dudes like a million times stronger than themselves. Literally actually, the gap between Hermit Purple and some of the Stands in Part 3 is millions.

Well, luckily Frogman's ally is Class Z and will assist him. He can communicate with her through telepathy and her resistance to time stop has way less strings attached, so she can actually move and act completely normally.

Who is fighting Clover.

Also, this assumes he can even do that under the intense fear, or mindhax, or freezing.

Stage 5 Frogman, the next evolution, is completely beyond the likes of Gunnix (Class E), who easily transport FU nuke rockets and yellow crate-boxes in FU XXL-Hybrid tanks, which allow the storing of a theoretically unlimited count of items, some being stated to weigh more than planet's total athmoshpheres. Considering Stage 4 Frogman and Gunnix are both 4th stage evolkutions, such a thing is easily achieved. There are ten stages total of Frogman, reaching higher than Stage 5 LS would be overkill considering these facts

This feels like actually just loopholing the whole certain key thing
And he's gonna be able to do this before, ya know.

It won't be a problem. Frogman's true existense lies in his Soul-Core, their Soul Cores (where the AI degree is located) possess Red Laser resistances. Red Laser Crystals/Soul Crystals show to possess immense quantum of resistances against non-close willpower-connected attacks/other negative influences, being trained to case-by-case seemingly downscale them at the very lowest concept, the 0th dimension, passively. Regrown crystals having done this against millions of techniques / their uncountably layered and negation-focused versions are said to have established an 'inner world perception of the outside world.' This makes the core itself essentially invulnerable to all of Dio's hax, but rthe body itself is still vulnerable. The best way to defeat Frogman is to wear his body and force the core into Self-BFR protections, and continue beating Frogman as he returns until the stamina is gone, but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

Tldr the yap.

This assumes Dio could overcome Frogman's reaction,

I mean, he literally can because not only is speed equal, but he's normally ten fucktillion times quicker so pulling the "uhm in speed he's quicker-" thing ain't gonna fly.

which is extrmely unlikely. Just as easily as Dio would spawn The World, Frogman can spawn R.L portals and get a significant range away (or, if The World actually does succesfully get to and destroy the Frogman body, considering his first move is to summon clones the backup would take affect, which is a Type 4 immortality)

Time Stop, and given you keep going on about reaction speed =/= combat speed. TW is blitzing.

and THEN he could portal, alongside this summoning a line of AT Shielding between Frogman and the portals at a microscopic distance between each other to further complicate Dio's action.

TW can phase. TW can also literally just implant microscoping spores or essence as we see another Stand do with Dio's cells.
TW has beyond microscopic sight and precision as well, so getting stuff like that past is a nonissue.

FU Android’s (and Frogmen, being superior to those, obviously have superior versions as well) have reactions far surpassing body movements due to mind in soul Crystals operating faster, useful to summon stuff like portals in critical moments.

I will know point you to the fact Dio has a Stand that blitzes the shit out of both Frogman, even speed unequal, and Dio himself. Pulling the reaction > combat speed thing (in speed equal), is just shooting yourself in the foot because now Frogman just gets blitzed by TW.

Dio and Clover also both lack a resistance to fear manipulation, and Stage 4 Frogman has an aura which not only induces feelings of respect in those aura, but also has a terrifying sound even without activating extra stuff. But that's nothing, besides a reset I don't see any defense they'd have for this:

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates own consciousness in beings cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.

The World, doesn't have layered NPI to effect it

Anyway, I don't see why Dio's own essentially passive fear aura wouldn't be enough to incap given the argument was basically "skeletons have fear aura" and "he can empath himself", which kinda only works if he isn't crippled by it to begin with.
Turning clones into allies is also a thing, cellular biomanip, etc.

Honestly, I don't like how most of the arguments also Frogman gets like a billion free turns, "he does this" "he also does that", etc, all while Clover is LOADING over any problematic thing and Dio saving over any thing Dio does that works. Even if Frogman has counters, Clover would just load till an interaction where Dio gets something off that sticks and Frogman didn't counter quick enough.
And let's not forget the speed gap, given apparently we're doing the funny speed equal thing, in which case TW just blitzes.

I'd also like to point out, when Dio takes in life force, he gets stat amped relative to said life force. Literally any blood at all, is going to roid Dio out.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

As mentioned, Clover could SAVE over any success DIO has and RESET the failures DIO has. This shouldn't be too big of a problem since Hecate can't permanently put down Clover.

Assuming he can get frogman despite frogman’s mind capacity, portal, AT shielding, clone shenanigans and extraordinary genius intellect, and if frogman can escape the initial encounter it would be far more difficult to accomplish things against him

Ah yes. The only character in this Tourney who could beat your OP Veneficaverse character. Another of your OP Veneficaverse characters. Not the best argument you could've made for that to say the least.

Bro… don’t you remember that cobalt lost? And I literally just said cobalt was more OP, and again, she LOST. Without frogman’s core resistances, he and Hecate would have lost to Max as well. And considering that, max also would have defeated cobalt and destiny. Possibly asunaven too. Your argument isn’t the best either lol

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1 but now that you mention it frogman’s Red Saber has op soul based attacks, and considering its range, the ten meter starting distance is a double edged sword

Basically. She has really good Danmaku, and although Clover is no slouch in the Danmaku dodging department, and has even outlasted an enemy with multiple homing attacks at once from enemies he couldn't damage in the form of Axis (Perhaps there's someone else I'm forgetting), and also Zenith Martlet (If you've seen the fight, dodging that crap is really impressive), it isn't enough for Clover to dodge her Danmaku casually, although this can be somewhat mitigated by the Golden Coffee item or the Coffee Bean ammo, both of which make Clover quite a bit faster than normal. The latter actually boosts his Speed whenever he shoots.

True enough but Hecate also has batshit precision, even with zero mech enhancements (Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

 

[Chariot190]

Assuming he can get frogman despite frogman’s mind capacity, portal, AT shielding, clone shenanigans and extraordinary genius intellect, and if frogman can escape the initial encounter it would be far more difficult to accomplish things against him

LOAD+TW blitz.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1 but now that you mention it frogman’s Red Saber has op soul based attacks, and considering its range, the ten meter starting distance is a double edged sword

Dio, (oddly?) can survive soul destruction ***** him up real bad to the point he's incapped for hours but he did survive the destruction of The World.
Also to destroy The World, you need layered spiritual NPI.

(Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

Why can't TW just take care of that, it has the precision and senses to effortlessly react to microscopic sneak attacks from behind? Given it's outright stated number 1 in precision with Plat, and has all the same precision and sense capabilities as him but greater.
Hell even Stands with magnitudes less precision can react to sneak attacks from 180m away from behind such as Sticky Fingers.

Though in regards to Clover, I don't really think that's enough. Clover doesn't need to see every attack to load, they just need to know attacks coming at all. The fact Dio exists and can just go "hey btw random projectile about to hit you in the ass at 8'o clock".

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I didn’t make frogman’s profile, froggy would be much better to answer many of the questions.

It was also said it takes extensive energy.

It takes his energy to move at all. Frogman is preforming these actions with his mind, ie, not moving

Except TW exists, and Frogman lacks the capability to interact or even perceive it. Literally just use TW as a shield. Or as mentioned, manhandle with LS.

I dont think the world would be able to shield everything he does while also attempting attacks

This is just dumb, no offense. "Wow the dude who literally has every thing that makes a zombie, a zombie, except way worse, would be turned into a zombie".

I get where you’re coming from but he has two whole resistances on his profile and neither include the zombie stuff or damages being transferred back into him either

Who is fighting Clover.

Hecate can easily danmaku clover while dedicating some of the ballast towards Dio (note, Dio, not The World). She’s fought and defeated multiple haxxed enemies all at once, two opponents are nothing new.

Tldr the yap.

Frogman’s core has uncountable layers of resistance to virtually everything, developed over billions and billions of years of constant adaptation. But if that’s nebulous for you, froggy can far more easily clarify this.

Honestly, I don't like how most of the arguments also Frogman gets like a billion free turns, "he does this" "he also does that", etc, all while Clover is LOADING over any problematic thing and Dio saving over any thing Dio does that works. Even if Frogman has counters, Clover would just load till an interaction where Dio gets something off that sticks and Frogman didn't counter quick enough.
And let's not forget the speed gap, given apparently we're doing the funny speed equal thing, in which case TW just blitzes.

It’s because frogman canonically does dozens of things at once. If you’ll look at other frogmen threads you’ll see that even lower stages can do similar, and this is stage 4, developed for 20K+ years to do all of that but way better. Speed is indeed equal, I was just pointing out the status of frogman’s mind and how that usually functions relative to his body (at least, it was used that way when Gunnix fought Hecate in a different tourney). Froggy can clarify this stuff as well

 

[SSB64]

He doesn't need to. Mind hax is enough.

TBH, regardless of whether Clover can or can't beat DIO, the fact remains that there are multiple characters in this Tourney who could beat this seemingly impossible ability. Meanwhile, I fail to see any characters other than Cobalt and Clover who can get around Hecate's Hax and genius, so if Clover is too broken to be included in this Tournament, then it stands to reason that Hecate should also be disqualified by similar logic since not only does she have less foes who can beat her, but the only two characters who has a chance against her is another of Venefica's own characters, and one that was disqualified for being too broken.

Bro… don’t you remember that cobalt lost?

And you seemingly forgot how she lost. She lost because Destiny was killed, and so she lost by technicality of it being a Stalemate in Asunaven's favor.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1

This could actually be a big problem for Frogate. Clover would inevitably try telling DIO to go after Hecate instead while Clover tries their hand at Frogman, who's Danmaku doesn't seem as bad as Hecate's at a glance.

BTW, I completely forgot that Clover has the SOUL dash, which can not only allow Clover to phase through objects and gain a burst of speed (Adding yet another layer of speed boost that Clover possesses), shatter barriers that can otherwise bypass resistances to their SOUL cannon (This also seems to tie in with that shaky argument of Clover being able to perceive things down to a near stop during their fight with Zenith Martlet.) Finally, they do all of their fights while bound by the limits of the in-game SOUL box. In a neutral battleground, I doubt Clover would have this limited movement.

True enough but Hecate also has batshit precision, even with zero mech enhancements (Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

Considering that Zenith Martlet can both fire tons of high speed semi-homing projectiles while also swinging at Clover with her claws Which actually spawn directly on top of Clover), and yet Clover is still able to dodge all of that at LV 19, precision alone wouldn't be enough to justify constant hits on Clover. And even then, Clover dies, and does the fight again, remembering where the attacks showed up and when after enough times doing it.

Finally, while this is technically Pacifist, I'm willing to count it since Clover is much more skilled and powerful here than in that fight. He's able to endure a four phased long battle against an all-out, powered up Ceroba while also dodging nearly everything she could throw at him (The only attacks he couldn't dodge, he powered through, though this specifically seems to be a Pacifist Route only trait, so I won't count that endurance feat in particular)

 

[Chariot190]

I didn’t make frogman’s profile, froggy would be much better to answer many of the questions.

Not my concern nor did I say you did.

It takes his energy to move at all. Frogman is preforming these actions with his mind, ie, not moving

Which... Still leaves him extremely vulnerable?

Also a chunk of what you've said, is him moving, like unless I've somehow been misled, pretty sure controlling and altering one's physical cells is movement of the physical body, as just one example. Only the RL shit you said doesn't take energy, everything else, by proxy, does.

I dont think the world would be able to shield everything he does while also attempting attacks

Why not, he's several blitzes quicker.

I get where you’re coming from but he has two whole resistances on his profile and neither include the zombie stuff or damages being transferred back into him either

I mean, dog, he is literally already that.

It'd be like reflecting back being a human, onto a human. Literally useless.

And you're, right doesn't res damage trans, but, Dio also doesn't actually have that'd be lethal to himself, so it doesn't matter if he just shrugs it off.

Hecate can easily danmaku clover while dedicating some of the ballast towards Dio (note, Dio, not The World).

Note doesn't matter when TW like, ya know, actively protects Dio automatically without any conscious input from Dio, much like Star Platinum does Jotaro.

She’s fought and defeated multiple haxxed enemies all at once, two opponents are nothing new.

And Dio's done the same. It doesn't matter how many she's fought if they have different toolkits. This is like arguing because Batman could stomp 10000 dudes at once, he'd be able to neg diff Flash and Green Lantern at the same time. Yeah nah, not how this works.

Clover is an absolutely ridiculous hurdle to overcome, the fact Dio has random bullshit supporting Clover, doesn't help.

Frogman’s core has uncountable layers of resistance to virtually everything, developed over billions and billions of years of constant adaptation. But if that’s nebulous for you, froggy can far more easily clarify this.

Did you really previously say "man basic causality manip to much" just to go "btw this dude has ten fucktrillion res layers for everything ever and uhm ya cnat hit it and uhm".

Like man be real.

It’s because frogman canonically does dozens of things at once.

Not how this works. It doesn't matter if he wants to, plans to, and will do so if given a chance, the problem is none of this is a free action.
In the time he does something, his foes, too, will do something. Is what I'm trying to say, the whole "lmao fast mind" argument doesn't even work because Dio also has exponentially quicker reaction and perception speed compared to his combat, and TW is that on crack.

If you’ll look at other frogmen threads you’ll see that even lower stages can do similar, and this is stage 4, developed for 20K+ years to do all of that but way better. Speed is indeed equal, I was just pointing out the status of frogman’s mind and how that usually functions relative to his body (at least, it was used that way when Gunnix fought Hecate in a different tourney). Froggy can clarify this stuff as well

Development and application are not the same thing, at that point I may as well argue Dio could one up Joseph, who could one up extraordinary geniuses with over 100000 years of experience.
Not how this works. Especially because speed is equal, but, as you so kindly pointed out, speed equal is combat speed right, with the other facets equalized relative to that no? In which case, TW is blitzing Frogman, like, 1000x over.

Anyway, about that Fear Hax and Life Drain.

 

[SSB64]

Without frogman’s core resistances, he and Hecate would have lost to Max as well. And considering that, max also would have defeated cobalt and destiny. Possibly asunaven too. Your argument isn’t the best either lol

The point I was making was that Clover isn't any more broken than Hecate, and thus shouldn't be disqualified because of their ability. Plus, Asuna can phase through anything the Luck Button could pull or just outright dodge it with her insane Danmaku dodging, so they'd be fine. Oh yeah. And Hecate could probably seal Max with Golden Bubbles or disable the Luck Button if she has some sort of EMP or matter-destroying tech.

who could one up extraordinary geniuses with over 100000 years of experience

More specifically, the Pillarmen. Your intellect would have to be pretty absurd to keep up with and outsmart beings like them. Plus, keep in mind that Pillarmen can absorb anything they come into contact with, so they'd have to outsmart someone with Millenia of combat experience, and who could, with a touch, instantly absorb and kill you. Plus, the last one they fought was Ultimate Kars, who is that on steroids. (BTW, Chariot190. Thanks for helping me in terms of covering for Dio.)

 

[SSB64]

Plus, if all else fails, Clover has one more trick which Hecate and Frogman have no hope of getting past.

 

[Froggytron]

Vene did well trying to cover this, I will just adjust the details

As for Laser Frogman's arsenal. Stands passively protect the user from harm. If Laser Frogman tries to Danmaku DIO, The World should help mitigate it since not only does DIO have good Regen, but The World can't really be harmed by the energy balls, and has traded blows with ridiculously fast and skilled opponents who can fling punches at high enough speeds to create many after images.

This might help then, not sure if it cancels Red Laser attacks and techniques on touch fully, when their 100%-undeniable properties are taken into account. Then again Dio himself has notable senses and acrobatics, helping to deal with what gets through.

Also, if the Laser blood is actually blood, then that would be an idiotic move to use against DIo who uses blood to heal himself (DIO has semi-Danmaku via his Flesh Buds.)

Frogman seeing Dio's fangs and with 99.99% probability of having dealt with vampires in his 20K+ years of experience wouldn't be so dum, it's intentional. Although not as potently as true Red Laser blasts and attacks, the blood of Frogmen is on numerous occasions called "multiversal gunpowder" with extreme power and extremely unstable properties to use it at anything. When their stat difference is added (High 8-C vs High 6-A), consuming even a single drop is likely to one-hit Dio past his regen limits, not to mention the blood itself as well carries extreme heat + extreme radiation + aging effect on all with direct contact.

Clover really helps here with resets to gain knowledge, although windows to share this knowledge with arrogant Dio are likely to be rare, not sure if Dio will listen. Yet, Dio might sense the dangerous properties of blood before contact, as he was suspicious of getting close to "supposed Jotaro's corpse" laying on the ground after his knife attack.

Also, here's something you probably wouldn't see coming..... The starting range of the tourney is a big disadvantage for Frogman here. he's getting a likely invincible Stand in his stomach that stops time and rips him apart from the inside out, or DIO could hypnotize Frogman if Frogman tries to look at DIO to scan him.

Frogman's insides are nearly as durable as his other durability though, it will take enormous effort for The World to cause harm there still. And Frogman's regen + survivability means are OP enough to last and nearly instantly repair all with superior regen once the time is unpaused.

How does the hypnosis work, at which senses it applies? The strength and sense-observation of Frogman is superior to Gunnix, it becomes extremely challenging to trick it.

Wait actually, the calc says it’s class M…

But that just points to FU materials density, it isn't linking actual calc.

 

[Chariot190]

knowledge with arrogant Dio are likely to be rare, not sure if Dio will listen

Literally stopping you there.

We JUST got a whole magazine article yapping about how Dio is actually a genius who doesnt take risks, is super cautious, analytical, predictive, and more.

Arrogance, isnt stupidity. He doesnt even **** around if he isnt sure he can.

Where the hell did this meme come from? Dio is borderline genre breaking with how anal he is.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Wait actually, the calc says it’s class M…

That's just a density calc and the 'ends' are just the mass of one cubic meter, not sure why it's used to justify Class Z without a proper calc for it (my fault I guess)

I did later make a calc for one Stage 3's techniques where Frogman pushes someone through a portal 200km below the planet's surface and got a Class G feat and Stage 4 would probably upscales from that.

 

[Froggytron]

.....Man. I really need to bring that out this early, huh?

Well, it's one of Vene's main characters They still fit the rules, there could be even 3 tiers, or super haxed 4 tiers

This threat got too large too soon, I have a hard time comprehending this Let's start on the main points then:

He can literally just keep doing this to avoid being hit forever without limit, I don't recall frisk having such a thing

Probably not if Frogman 2-sec-rewinds the actual load happening, confusing Clover while Hecate's lasers land. As well as creating portals around Clover tightly, having their openings in front of Frogman's hand, will cause immersed pain aiming to KO Clover without killing him (preventing LOAD from happening due to his death), that's how this team beat Frisk and Hezi. Frogman may not have Acausality, yet due to High Sin meters in front of him he uses his precog to avoid dirty tricks, he will see LOAD effects and can deduce it with mind surpassing Gunnix's one, not to mention the dejavu added with each LOAD.


As for heaviest claims for Dio against Frogman:

Which... Still leaves him extremely vulnerable?

(I will just repost my claims at this threat's start)

As for Combat Stage4 Frogman still having trouble moving in time stop, he still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).

Why not, he's several blitzes quicker.

But speed is equalized. If this is a stat amp, Frogman still has many cards to play before going down due to speed superiority.

I mean, dog, he is literally already that.

It'd be like reflecting back being a human, onto a human. Literally useless.

And you're, right doesn't res damage trans, but, Dio also doesn't actually have that'd be lethal to himself, so it doesn't matter if he just shrugs it off.

Im lost, pls explain

Note doesn't matter when TW like, ya know, actively protects Dio automatically without any conscious input from Dio, much like Star Platinum does Jotaro.

You cannot forget Frogman is a battlefield genius, here is something for reference from the intelligence section:

• Experienced Frogmen at a commander title are able to think up dozens of difficult battle solutions in fractions of a second. For many days straight able to utilize thousands of individual FU units (such as the first four levels of FU Androids, E up to C class Green Laser vehicles or individually fighting stage 1-2 Frogmen) at not wasting any potential of each single one. During all of this, commander Frogmen are keeping an eye out for possible threats beyond the level of their assigned troops or even themselves, and communicate with other commander Frogmen (stages 3s and 4s) using advanced Red Laser telepathy. Upon a commander Frogmen like stage3 or 4 expanding their brain size and truly focusing, they are able to solve advanced singular problems at a rate of difficulty nearly rivaling with Supergenius degree of intelligence. It's not very practical with a powerful enemy going for their head, however.

Combine this with extreme 20K+ years mastery of portals (usable in stopped time) through which he can sent attacks, and event shields covering entire characters (without some crazy anti teleportation hax) become trivial for Frogman to bypass. The World acting as a shield isn't close to fullbody shield further.

Not how this works. It doesn't matter if he wants to, plans to, and will do so if given a chance, the problem is none of this is a free action.
In the time he does something, his foes, too, will do something. Is what I'm trying to say, the whole "lmao fast mind" argument doesn't even work because Dio also has exponentially quicker reaction and perception speed compared to his combat, and TW is that on crack.

Frogman's mind actually sees his bodies as a 'disability' not able to truly unleash his power, that's why he has to create body clones for the body to catch up. For a single action of the enemy, there are dozens of actions from Frogman of this caliber, physically delivered from his body clones, where they are picked "as the best options" out of all he can do in that situation.

Anyway, about that Fear Hax and Life Drain.

Frogmen can actually convert fear into strength and recover life force easily by destroying anything with their Red Laser attacks. Not to mention this only helps to recover faster, Frogmen have infinitely recovering stamina due to Red Laser physiology.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Im lost, pls explain

It's because Dio already has the traits of what would be transferred back, I believe, I haven't seen Jojo so I may be wrong though

 

[Rayfire]

Nice try, speed is equal. And if it wasn't, Dio would blitz the shit out of him because he's blitz level over 25,000c. And, The World's speed exceeds Dio's, so if you pull the "only combat speed is equalized" thing, Dio's own thought speed exceeds his combat ability (Could react to a pissed off Star Platinum) and TW is like a blitz level above Dio himself.

Wouldn't TW also have equal combat speed, though? TW is listed as equipment but i feel it's not like the same thing with a gun for example where it's projectiles are still supersonic. TW isn't projectile/attack speed, it still has combat speed of it's own, after all. If it's just reaction speed then that makes sense, but by standard speed equalization i don't see it actually moving any faster than base frogman or hecate.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

That's just a density calc and the 'ends' are just the mass of one cubic meter, not sure why it's used to justify Class Z without a proper calc for it (my fault I guess)

I did later make a calc for one Stage 3's techniques where Frogman pushes someone through a portal 200km below the planet's surface and got a Class G feat and Stage 4 would probably upscales from that.

Yeah, so Frogman should be capable of contending with The World through LS

 

[Froggytron]

Literally stopping you there.

We JUST got a whole magazine article yapping about how Dio is actually a genius who doesnt take risks, is super cautious, analytical, predictive, and more.

Arrogance, isnt stupidity. He doesnt even **** around if he isnt sure he can.

Where the hell did this meme come from? Dio is borderline genre breaking with how anal he is.

But with the bombardment of Frogman and Hecate resisting Timestop completely, how will he get the info from Clover? Not to mention Clover doesn't seem to have resistance against timestop, Dio stopping time might be the best card for Frogman and Hecate KOing Clover (without kill), with Clover unconscious from the moment of time being unpaused, Dio will be in 1v2 with his now final attempt

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn't TW also have equal combat speed, though? TW is listed as equipment but i feel it's not like the same thing with a gun for example where it's projectiles are still supersonic. TW isn't projectile/attack speed, it still has combat speed of it's own, after all. If it's just reaction speed then that makes sense, but by standard speed equalization i don't see it actually moving any faster than base frogman or hecate.

Nah, it's a summon. The character being used is Dio, not the World. It wouldn't make sense for the World and Dio to have the same speed when it's listed as several times faster.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

But with the bombardment of Frogman and Hecate resisting Timestop completely, how will he get the info from Clover? Not to mention Clover doesn't seem to have resistance against timestop, Dio stopping time might be the best card for Frogman and Hecate KOing Clover (without kill), with Clover unconscious from the moment of time being unpaused Dio will be in 1v2

This is also something clover can't just resist through determination either. Dio would be stopping his ally from ever saving or loading just through virtue of his main power

 

[Rayfire]

Nah, it's a summon. The character being used is Dio, not the World. It wouldn't make sense for the World and Dio to have the same speed when it's listed as several times faster.

Then how does anyone in this tourney deal with it without precog or something

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Then how does anyone in this tourney deal with it without precog or something

It's High 8-C, don't worry about it.

 

[Rayfire]

It's High 8-C, don't worry about it.

I thought a major point of TW was that it could use it's LS to manhandle people while they can't hit back though. AP isn't the issue, it's the LS and hax mainly

Ok then bro just gets manhandled by a dude he can't even attack back.

 

[Froggytron]

This is also something clover can't just resist through determination either. Dio would be stopping his ally from ever saving or loading just through virtue of his main power

Which Dio is claimed to use instantly when the fight starts. 11 seconds, even with equalized speed, is more than enough to KO Clover (without kill) dozens of times in a row, namely when Frogman has knowledge of potential LOADs due to using precog this time (avoiding kill he would otherwise like to do). This ironically presents a wincoin for Frogma-etace without a single LOAd happening, where Dio is in bad odds facing two overwhelming arsenals of two High 6-As capable to move / do stuff in stopped time (where with clones and traps secured, waking up Clover with flesh things is nearly out of reach)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Btw doesn't Frogman only go for KOs when he's going up against Low Sin people or something? I'd say Genocide Clover is pretty evil, all things considered.

I thought a major point of TW was that it could use it's LS to manhandle people while they can't hit back though. AP isn't the issue, it's the LS and hax mainly

Having higher LS sorta nullifies this approach, so ehh

 

[Rayfire]

Which Dio is claimed to use instantly when the fight starts. 11 seconds, even with equalized speed, is more than enough to KO Clover (without kill), namely when Frogman has knowledge of potential LOADs due to using precog this time. This ironically presents a wincoin for Frogma-etace without a single LOAd happening, where Dio is in bad odds facing two overwhelming arsenals of two High 6-As capable to move / do stuff in stopped time (where with clones and traps secured, waking up Clover with flesh things is nearly out of reach)

Dio also doesn't expect his opponents to move in stopped time, especially not stand users, and he gets real scared and stuff, so he'll definitely not expect this.

 

[Froggytron]

Dio also doesn't expect his opponents to move in stopped time, especially not stand users, and he gets real scared and stuff, so he'll definitely not expect this.

Indeed, Dio's shock will further ease the way to KO Clover in the beginning

Btw doesn't Frogman only go for KOs when he's going up against Low Sin people or something? I'd say Genocide Clover is pretty evil, all things considered

In most times no, they want to torture them slowly and painfully. But them being high sin-meters pushes Frogman to be in death calm state of mind and to use precog, through which he can see (although blurry) LOADs happening on Clover's death, he will be careful this time

Having higher LS sorta nullifies this approach, so ehh

Combat Stage 4 can tear continents out of a planet and lift them without much struggle, it just doesn't have a direct calc yet, but it definitely seems high in LS

 

[Chariot190]

consuming even a single drop is likely to one-hit Dio past his regen limits, not to mention the blood itself as well carries extreme heat + extreme radiation + aging effect on all with direct contact.

Time Stop.

Why would heat and all that do anything when time is stopped?
Heat needs time to interact and transfer between things. Same with radiation.

All Dio has to do is rip the life force from the blood amidst time stop. Unless you're about to argue his blood can do all this when time is stopped, which, ya know, goes against what's been established by you in particular.

Also, consuming it, would literally amp Dio. It's absorption.

But with the bombardment of Frogman and Hecate resisting Timestop completely, how will he get the info from Clover?

Frogman literally doesn't? Also Dio has telepathy.

Not to mention Clover doesn't seem to have resistance against timestop, Dio stopping time might be the best card for Frogman and Hecate KOing Clover (without kill),

Dio can literally end it and start it again instantly if Clover would be harmed, enabling Clover to SAVE or LOAD, if true.

with Clover unconscious from the moment of time being unpaused, Dio will be in 1v2 with his now final attempt

Literally not how that works?

Yeah, so Frogman should be capable of contending with The World through LS

That calc is very, very, problematic if I'm reading it correctly, pushing only works if it's one instantaneous movement, otherwise you need to divide by timeframe.

Well, it's one of Vene's main characters They still fit the rules, there could be even 3 tiers, or super haxed 4 tiers

This threat got too large too soon, I have a hard time comprehending this Let's start on the main points then:

Probably not if Frogman 2-sec-rewinds the actual load happening,

confusing Clover while Hecate's lasers land. As well as creating portals around Clover tightly, having their openings in front of Frogman's hand, will cause immersed pain aiming to KO Clover without killing him (preventing LOAD from happening due to his death), that's how this team beat Frisk and Hezi. Frogman may not have Acausality, yet due to High Sin meters in front of him he uses his precog to avoid dirty tricks, he will see LOAD effects and can deduce it with mind surpassing Gunnix's one, not to mention the dejavu added with each LOAD.


As for heaviest claims for Dio against Frogman:

(I will just repost my claims at this threat's start)

As for Combat Stage4 Frogman still having trouble moving in time stop, he still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more.

Problem there, shields useless, phasing. Portals, blitzed. everything else, blitzed.
His mind being operational doesn't help if Clover LOADS anytime Dio gets hit, not withstanding ya know,

As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).

But speed is equalized. If this is a stat amp, Frogman still has many cards to play before going down due to speed superiority.

Exactly, I wasnt sure how FCOC treats speed equal, but if it's the whole equalized to combat than relative other stuff, then TW just blitzes. The fact the other dude kept going on how Frogman actually has super awesome percetion/reactions so he's mentally quyicker, tells me this is the case here too. If that is the case, not only does that apply to Dio who's reactions/perceptions is like, a magnitude above his combat, but TW is that magnitude flatout.

Im lost, pls explain

You cannot forget Frogman is a battlefield genius, here is something for reference from the intelligence section:

• Experienced Frogmen at a commander title are able to think up dozens of difficult battle solutions in fractions of a second. For many days straight able to utilize thousands of individual FU units (such as the first four levels of FU Androids, E up to C class Green Laser vehicles or individually fighting stage 1-2 Frogmen) at not wasting any potential of each single one. During all of this, commander Frogmen are keeping an eye out for possible threats beyond the level of their assigned troops or even themselves, and communicate with other commander Frogmen (stages 3s and 4s) using advanced Red Laser telepathy. Upon a commander Frogmen like stage3 or 4 expanding their brain size and truly focusing, they are able to solve advanced singular problems at a rate of difficulty nearly rivaling with Supergenius degree of intelligence. It's not very practical with a powerful enemy going for their head, however.

Not even Pillar Man level. Nothing in here is even extraordinary genius?

Combine this with extreme 20K+ years mastery of portals (usable in stopped time) through which he can sent attacks,

Portals to send attacks, against the dude with the blitz worth invulnerable human shield because he lacks the right NPI?
20k, sub-Pillar Men level, which mind you, dudes on Dio's level can contend with in Battle IQ.

and event shields covering entire characters (without some crazy anti teleportation hax) become trivial for Frogman to bypass.
The World acting as a shield isn't close to fullbody shield further.

The World can literally grow in size the closer he is to Dio due to the Stand Power-Type Rules.


They can get huge, in much the say way they can turn microscopic. Obviously there's a limit, but being like 15ft tall is enough to cover the 6'5'' Dio.

Not that this matters given TW is like 100x quicker than these incoming attacks, Frogman lacks NPI, and TW has the senses and precision to react to every single without issue.

Frogman's mind actually sees his bodies as a 'disability' not able to truly unleash his power, that's why he has to create body clones for the body to catch up. For a single action of the enemy, there are dozens of actions from Frogman of this caliber, physically delivered from his body clones, where they are picked "as the best options" out of all he can do in that situation.

And he has to make clones, which goes back to problem one of pretending Frogman gets a fucktillion free turns the instant the match starts. The fact Dio has even better perception speed than he does, and TW just flatout negs in speed as a whole, is kind of problematic for Frogman getting in his billion moves.

Frogmen can actually convert fear into strength and recover life force easily by destroying anything with their Red Laser attacks.

Not an argument when the fear in question can effect those who res fear hax and have supernatural will and can also have their emotional state magnify their strengths, into a vomiting paralyzed fit that does nothing but pray they won't die and wish to be Dio's friend.

Prove he can do this against layered fear hax without even manifesting that cripples dudes with supnat will.

Dio drains all the life force? How can he recover it, when this circumvents things like regeneration by just draining the body of some abstract life energy as a whole, which has the added benefit of making that body Dio's slave via zombification.

Unless Frogman's bodies can survive with 0 life force, this isn't an argument.

Wouldn't TW also have equal combat speed, though? TW is listed as equipment but i feel it's not like the same thing with a gun for example where it's projectiles are still supersonic. TW isn't projectile/attack speed, it still has combat speed of it's own, after all. If it's just reaction speed then that makes sense, but by standard speed equalization i don't see it actually moving any faster than base frogman or hecate.

It is, would you equalize Hol Horse's Stand as well? It isn't a summon, it's a specific attack speed. In speed equal, attacks, reactions, etc, get equalized relative to the combat speed of the main body. Dio, is not The World. The World is quicker than him, as a crucial part of its toolkit.
I don't know how you do it over here, but on VSBW, Stands get equalized relative to the main body, because they aren't the main body, and pretending Tusk Act 4 is the same speed as the crippled Johnny is laughable. In turn, also pretending the below human or immobile Stands the same speed as the main body, misses the point with them too.

Anyway, yeah, have yet to see an actual counter due Dio's cell fuckery, flash freezing, various mind stuff, etc, if only because he can do all this in time stop, and Frogman kinda like, can't physically do stuff in time stop that gets roided out every usage. Like how's Frogman altering his body if he can't move it?

 

[Chariot190]

Dio also doesn't expect his opponents to move in stopped time, especially not stand users, and he gets real scared and stuff, so he'll definitely not expect this.

He doesn't get scared?
Why actively twist what happened? He becomes cautious because he's not a dumbass. He takes into account what his foes can do and play around it. He knew what Plat could do, knew getting close was actual ******* dumb if he could move, and thus played around it, and made sure to not get within 2m of the MFTL+punch ghost.

I hate this meme, how is it we can literally be told flatout why Dio did everything he did throughout the fight, and people still misintepret it.

 

[Rayfire]

He doesn't get scared?
Why actively twist what happened? He becomes cautious because he's not a dumbass. He takes into account what his foes can do and play around it. He knew what Plat could do, knew getting close was actual ******* dumb if he could move, and thus played around it, and made sure to not get within 2m of the MFTL+punch ghost.

I hate this meme, how is it we can literally be told flatout why Dio did everything he did throughout the fight, and people still misintepret it.

I think dio would especially not be expecting this since his opponents don't even have stands, though.

I'm not trying to misinterpret dio at all lol, I understand if it looks that way since im not a big jojo fan, but dio does seem cautious when his opponent so much as moves their finger, let alone if they continued to move completely, so TW's first move or main ability wouldn't be as effective, especially in hecate's case since she can move without expending energy to do so. Dio would be in a situation he's not used to either way if time stop is his go-to 99% of the time.

It is, would you equalize Hol Horse's Stand as well? It isn't a summon, it's a specific attack speed. In speed equal, attacks, reactions, etc, get equalized relative to the combat speed of the main body. Dio, is not The World. The World is quicker than him, as a crucial part of its toolkit.
I don't know how you do it over here, but on VSBW, Stands get equalized relative to the main body, because they aren't the main body, and pretending Tusk Act 4 is the same speed as the crippled Johnny is laughable. In turn, also pretending the below human or immobile Stands the same speed as the main body, misses the point with them too.

The immobile stands thing makes sense, but we aren't talking about those. we're talking about TW

I don't really see "Massively FTL Attack Speed With the World" on dio's profile tho, especially not in this key. It just says it's higher with the world in general im pretty sure. (It doesn't say "Higher" perse, it's just Massively FTL again.)

I don't think TW is the same case as something like a projectile (Which oftentimes isn't equalized) especially since it seems to mainly do melee stuff, which is what combat speed is. It's the same thing with summoning a clone of yourself that's faster than you. Sure, it's faster than you yourself, but saying that it bypasses speed equalization when it's not specifically things like attack speed doesn't seem fair or right to me unless they have speed amps.

Nah, FC/OC follows the same rules of VSBW (The only difference that's immediately obvious is that it needs to be 3-0 for a thread to conclude rather than 7-0) but i do think the above still stands atm ^ (Haha, Get it? )

 

[Chariot190]

Which Dio is claimed to use instantly when the fight starts. 11 seconds, even with equalized speed, is more than enough to KO Clover (without kill) dozens of times in a row,

You, know Dio can like, use it for any length he wants right?

namely when Frogman has knowledge of potential LOADs due to using precog this time (avoiding kill he would otherwise like to do).

How? How can he precog the past? Is he acausual? Why would precog enable him to see something that's never occured?

This ironically presents a wincoin for Frogma-etace without a single LOAd happening, where Dio is in bad odds facing two overwhelming arsenals of two High 6-As capable to move / do stuff in stopped time (where with clones and traps secured, waking up Clover with flesh things is nearly out of reach)

Dio can legit just stop time, notice one can move, but one is super vulnerable, undo stopped time, use telepathy to tell Clover, and then they switch up their game plan, timing time stops and save and loads. The fact we take reactions as being equalized only relative, according to the Frogman yap, means Dio can do this extremely easy as his reactions far exceed his combat speed.

I think dio would especially not be expecting this since his opponents don't even have stands, though.

He doesn't need to expect?
Why are you acting like this would do anything? He'd adapt instantly.

I'm not trying to misinterpret dio at all lol,

It's a common misconception and it's tiresome, nothing against you but, ya know...

I understand if it looks that way since im not a big jojo fan, but dio does seem cautious when his opponent so much as moves their finger, let alone if they continued to move completely, so TW's first move or main ability wouldn't be as effective, especially in hecate's case since she can move without expending energy to do so. Dio would be in a situation he's not used to either way if time stop is his go-to 99% of the time.

He's cautious, of course he is. He's cautious because he's not dumb and takes useless risks.
In Jotaro's case, he's up against someone he had extensive intel on (Which as an fyi for the dude saying Dio wouldn't listen to intel, he literally had a whole part sending dudes at dudes to gain intel and info and took it to heart), that suddenly is moving, and knows that if he gets within 2m of him, he's ******.

So, Dio, now knowing Jotaro can move, knowing Jotaro's range and lethality, proceeds to quickly and successfully conduct multiple plans to circumvent that.

The immobile stands thing makes sense, but we aren't talking about those. we're talking about TW

No difference. Cherry Picking.

I don't really see "Massively FTL Attack Speed With the World" on dio's profile tho, especially not in this key. It just says it's higher with the world in general im pretty sure. (It doesn't say "Higher" perse, it's just Massively FTL again.)

Yes, TW is like three blitzes above 25000c.
Dio, while fast, is not as fast.

And of course not, because TW is MFTL flatout in everything, but TW's stats, and Dio's stats, are not the same, don't pretend they are.

I don't think TW is the same case as something like a projectile (Which oftentimes isn't equalized) especially since it seems to mainly do melee stuff, which is what combat speed is. It's the same thing with summoning a clone of yourself that's faster than you. Sure, it's faster than you yourself, but saying that it bypasses speed equalization when it's not specifically things like attack speed amps doesn't seem fair or right to me unless they have speed amps.

Well hate to break it to you, but if FCOC speed equal is the same as VSBW speed equal, it does.

It's a different speed value, it is not the dude who's being equalized. The World is gettinge qualized, but only relative to Dio's own speed. If Dio is being equalized from 25000 down to 5c or whatever, but TW is 50000c or three blitzes or whatever, TW's speed will be decreased, but he'd be 10c because he was 2x before, or three blitzes, or whatever. The relativity is retained.

Nah, FC/OC follows the same rules of VSBW (The only difference that's immediately obvious is that it needs to be 3-0 for a thread to conclude rather than 7-0) but i do think the above still stands atm ^ (Haha, Get it? )

In which case, on VSBW we treat Stands like that because they objectively aren't the same. For good reason too, you know how stupid it'd be if Jotaro and Plat had the same speed? Or Hol Horse and Emperor? TW isn't special. In fact it's literally the same as Plat and Jotaro, the only difference is it's actually not AS bad because normally, Plat's peak would manhandle Jotaro,

 

[SSB64]

But with the bombardment of Frogman and Hecate resisting Timestop completely, how will he get the info from Clover? Not to mention Clover doesn't seem to have resistance against timestop, Dio stopping time might be the best card for Frogman and Hecate KOing Clover (without kill), with Clover unconscious from the moment of time being unpaused, Dio will be in 1v2 with his now final attempt

Unless time is stopped permanently, this wincon won't work. Remember. Clover has a high Sin meter, and Laser Frogman would alert this to Hecate when the fight starts as you admitted he would do earlier, and with the main way to win in this tourney being death, they'd both have a reason of killing Clover (Which will RESET the timeline, sending Frogate back to square one.) Not to mention that if The World is actually as fast as Chariot190 says he is, then Clover might have the option to warn DIO not to use Time Stop in his fight so as to prevent this from happening again.

I don't think TW is the same case as something like a projectile (Which oftentimes isn't equalized) especially since it seems to mainly do melee stuff, which is what combat speed is. It's the same thing with summoning a clone of yourself that's faster than you. Sure, it's faster than you yourself, but saying that it bypasses speed equalization when it's not specifically things like attack speed doesn't seem fair or right to me unless they have speed amps.

I'll let Chariot190 speak for me on this. They're a former Vs Battles Wiki staff member after all.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll let Chariot190 speak for me on this. They're a former Vs Battles Wiki staff member after all.

Already did. Over on VSBW we treat Stands relative.

In a match, say Dude is 1c, but his Stand is 10c. They get equalized to a mach 5 dude. Dude goes from 1c to Mach 5, but his Stand, instead of being 10c or Mach 5, will now be Mach 50.

The Stands get equalized, but relative to the main body. the difference is retained, in much the same adude with a gun's speed would be equalized, but the gun speed will stil be however much quicker than him it usually is. This also goes in reverse, Stands slower than the main body, will be equalized, but still be however much slower they are, like joseph has fuckhuge combat speed/reactions, but Hermit Purple is equal to HG, which is dogass, literally has a Stand that's like 100x slower than him, just useful for support or long range.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Alright so in light of recent events, it has come to my attention that Clover got by with full time hax (which honestly is completely on me : p) so they along with DIO will be disqualified!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You know, Dio definitely has more of an argument for being too busted for the tournament. Afterall, Clover's time hax is the same as IF Frisk's, who didn't even get past Round 1.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

You know, Dio definitely has more of an argument for being too busted for the tournament. Afterall, Clover's time hax is the same as IF Frisk's, who lost in Round 1.

I mean, tbf, IF Frisk had a much worse teammate and Clover was the one I was seeing complained about first.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

You know, Dio definitely has more of an argument for being too busted for the tournament. Clover's time hax is the same as IF Frisk's, who lost in Round 1 lol

Dio is unquestionably busted, but frisk’s teammate was also so far off from being anywhere near dio it’s not even funny. Without dio’s help, it may be possible to knock clover unconscious prior to a save and load, but with him they are a team which is basically impossible to stop considering the world being allowed stand in general and also being more busted on top of that (possessing massive blitz speed which even Hecate and frogs own amps can’t hope to counter), well surpassing the hax limit set by the tourney rules

 

[Chariot190]

Dio isn't even that bad. He's squishy. He just happens to have good incap options and the ability to get them off. Actually killing dudes is superhard given stats. And the funny stand speed only applies within 10m of him.
Well life drain is probably an issue, but uh, don't get touched then forehead

also are we really saying Dio is to much when one of the other dudes apparently has uncountable res layers for a thing that needs npi to even touch and without messing with it, he's unkillable.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Dio isn't even that bad. He's squishy. He just happens to have good incap options and the ability to get them off. Actually killing dudes is superhard given stats. And the funny stand speed only applies within 10m of him.
Well life drain is probably an issue, but uh, don't get touched then forehead

also are we really saying Dio is to much when one of the other dudes apparently has uncountable res layers for a thing that needs npi to even touch and without messing with it, he's unkillable.

I’m not sure about totally dying, but Frogman would lose if he just straight up ran out of energy or was walled off completely by something (save and load in this case), and killing frogman’s core I believe can be done though pure ap, but stage 4 frogman’s obviously would take more ap than what either of these two opponents have.

But considering the tourney allows 3-A’s, the whole core thing isn’t as busted as one may think in the tourney context. If you have AP, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s just basically impossible to snipe with conventional hax from distance, and higher willpower also empowers one further in making progress AP wise