[FINALS] Asuna Kamakura & Javen vs Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate [GRACE]

[SSB64]

That is absolute bs, you know Asuna is nowhere close to being close to as smart as Hecate

How is this bullcrap? I did the research, found the evidence, and discovered this detail. What evidence do you have to debunk this?

Hecate has the higher IQ (IE, Hecate has a higher intellect ceiling), but Asuna can make many more calculations than Hecate, and thus close that gap to some degree.

Also, I didn't say Asuna was smarter. I said she has faster processing speed, and could close that several hundred times gap of intellect with it. In other words, Hecate can make one intelligent calc in the time in takes Asuna to make hundreds of less intelligent calcs (I'm not saying Asuna is dumb, far from it.)

 

[SSB64]

Also if you feel so strongly that they’ll win, clearly they are more op and the better team, why don’t you call for their dq now

As everyone has been saying, that's behind us now.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Nice dodge, you could be a politician

How is this bullcrap? I did the research, found the evidence, and discovered this detail. What evidence do you have to debunk this?

Compare their intelligence sections

Also, I didn't say Asuna was smarter. I said she has faster processing speed, and could close that several hundred times gap of intellect with it. In other words, Hecate can make one intelligent calc in the time in takes Asuna to make hundreds of less intelligent calcs (I'm not saying Asuna is dumb, far from it.)

Massive reach, she isn’t anywhere close to Hecate in any facet of the mind

 

[Rayfire]

I did some research, and uh..... Funny story Venefica. Turns out, her brain speed of sextillions of calculations per second..... Actually isn't as impressive as may of us (Including myself), actually thought it'd be. She'd only be several hundred to several thousand times faster than the average human processing speed. Meanwhile, Asuna dodging hundreds of thousands of projectiles alongside her speed amps would actually make Asuna faster in processing speed than Hecate, and especially Frogman (Who caps at trillions from what I know). So oddly enough, Hecate has the higher IQ (IE, Hecate has a higher intellect ceiling), but Asuna can make many more calculations than Hecate, and thus close that gap to some degree. I had no idea about this until I did research into the potential of the human brain.

There is simply no way Asuna is as smart as Hecate.

It’s true she’d be able to think and react faster with speed amps, obviously, but this source doesn’t literally mean we can do a bajillion calculations per second like a NASA supercomputer. It sounds more like neuron activity than anything considering humans have craploads of them. As a human myself, i can confirm that there's no way i could even take in this amount of information consciously let alone calculate it all lol, Why do you think humans can't beat top-tier chess bots anymore for example... I can barely beat some of the intermediate bots lol

Hecate is compared to supercomputers because, well, she can do all of it better than any supercomputer, because hecate is beyond any real world human Asuna is pretty well into genius in terms of battle iq, yeah, but she's nowhere near top-tier in PoW yet, nor does she have a neuron chip like hecate does. Saying that she's extraordinary genius is also kinda disingenious to her character, since with this sort of intelligence she'd have no problem developing new skills at all and her character development would be kinda crappy if she's op and doesn't struggle with anything from the start

That said, intelligence is only one piece of the puzzle here...

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Hecate processes faster/better than a whole room of advanced super computers, so…

 

[Rayfire]

Saying that she's extraordinary genius is also kinda disingenious to her character, since with this sort of intelligence she'd have no problem developing new skills at all and her character development would be kinda crappy if she's op and doesn't struggle with anything from the start

In fact this was kinda why haruka was introduced. She'll do way more later on, but she is a reminder that asuna still isn't invincible, as gifted in terms of willpower she is in a world that runs on it Asuna beat her by a hair.

 

[SSB64]

Nice dodge, you could be a politician

If anyone is trying to engage in an argument now, it's you. I've already stopped. So let's just ease ourselves, okay?

 

[SSB64]

Hecate is compared to supercomputers because, well, she can do all of it better than any supercomputer, because hecate is beyond any real world human Asuna is pretty well into genius in terms of battle iq, yeah, but she's nowhere near top-tier in PoW yet, nor does she have a neuron chip like hecate does. Saying that she's extraordinary genius is also kinda disingenious to her character, since with this sort of intelligence she'd have no problem developing new skills at all and her character development would be kinda crappy if she's op and doesn't struggle with anything from the start

That said, intelligence is only one piece of the puzzle here...

Can Asuna massively upscale dodging thousands of projectiles within a very short timeframe not counting her speed boosts?

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

If anyone is trying to engage in an argument now, it's you. I've already stopped. So let's just ease ourselves, okay?

No this isn’t any argument kinda thing I was just under the impression that we were doing things fair here and that the tourney rules gotta be fair and all, and with the word DQ being thrown around a lot lately I was just wondering… You clearly don’t think of frogate as the most op group anymore considering you voted for the other team, so I was just kinda wondering where all that went, you know, the whole sentiment is sort of lacking consistency right now

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

To be fair they did say they were gonna vote for the other team before the match even started lol

 

[SSB64]

Compare their intelligence sections

Read my point again. "Actually isn't as impressive as many of us (Including myself), actually thought it'd be."

In fact this was kinda why haruka was introduced. She'll do way more later on, but she is a reminder that asuna still isn't invincible, as gifted in terms of willpower she is in a world that runs on it Asuna beat her by a hair.

This would just upscale Haruka to Asuna.

Massive reach, she isn’t anywhere close to Hecate in any facet of the mind

Evidence? Simply saying "No" isn't evidence.

You clearly don’t think of frogate as the most op group anymore considering you voted for the other team, so I was just kinda wondering where all that went, you know, the whole sentiment is sort of lacking consistency right now

That's just one piece of it. I'm looking for an Asunaven W since if Frogate win, it means that the duo who cheated the Tourney and threw me to the curb, won, which would not be fair in the slightest.

 

[SSB64]

To be fair they did say they were gonna vote for the other team before the match even started lol

Actually.....

It doesn't exactly matter. Even after the arguments, I'm voting Asunaven anyways.

Yeah you're right, Eden.

 

[Rayfire]

Can Asuna massively upscale dodging thousands of projectiles within a very short timeframe not counting her speed boosts?

I mean, there's always Reactive Evolution if we don't count her other ways of defending. I think if she tried she definitely could, but it's not instant. It'll still take her a bit of time. This fight might be pretty quick anyway if Asuna & Javen bring out their trump cards in response to all these moves from frogate though, which is why i haven't brought it up. I think it could be a factor if Frogate somehow survive a good use of [Fortune] though

This would just upscale Haruka to Asuna.

It was more of a writing-based thing, it's cool if you didn't mean she was smarter necesarily btw although i've been saying that Reaction Speed isn't really the same as Processing speed since the latter is usually derivative of brain power in fiction. Hecate's whole thing in V.Verse is intelligence and it's hard for me to see asuna having faster processing speed in this case

 

[SSB64]

I mean, there's always Reactive Evolution if we don't count her other ways of defending. I think if she tried she definitely could, but it's not instant. It'll still take her a bit of time. This fight might be pretty quick anyway if Asuna & Javen bring out their trump cards in response to all these moves from frogate though, which is why i haven't brought it up. I think it could be a factor if Frogate somehow survive a good use of [Fortune] though

I say this because if Asuna doesn't have relative processing speeds to Hecate, she's getting instantly smoked by the Golden Laser Storm the moment Hecate uses it (Not even taking into account Frogman's kit), because Asuna wouldn't be able to process it fast enough. And yes. Instinct originates from the brain much like intelligence does. Part of instinct is that you're able to register something coming through your brain and then avoid it accordingly. Without that, Asuna would crash into walls and the ground from not being able to process her own speed, and she especially can't register the Golden Laser Storm coming at her within a fraction of a second. And remember. Simply dodging it isn't enough. You need to be well clear of every single laser for it to not immediately kill Asuna, all while they can home in on her. The only thing that's able to process things this fast is a supercomputer, if not, more than such.

In other words, her being at or above supercomputer processing speed is a necessity in order for this fight not to be a Frogate STOMP due to the Golden Laser Storm outpacing her.

 

[Rayfire]

I say this because if Asuna doesn't have relative processing speeds to Hecate, she's getting instantly smoked by the Golden Laser Storm the moment Hecate uses it (Not even taking into account Frogman's kit), because Asuna wouldn't be able to process it fast enough. And yes. Instinct originates from the brain much like intelligence does. Part of instinct is that you're able to register something coming through your brain and then avoid it accordingly. Without that, Asuna would crash into walls and the ground from not being able to process her own speed, and she especially can't register the Golden Laser Storm coming at her within a fraction of a second. And remember. Simply dodging it isn't enough. You need to be well clear of every single laser for it to not immediately kill Asuna, all while they can home in on her. The only thing that's able to process things this fast is a supercomputer, if not, more than such.

In other words, her being at or above supercomputer processing speed is a necessity in order for this fight not to be a Frogate STOMP due to the Golden Laser Storm outpacing her.

Bruh it's not like she's completely screwed, she'd still have some great reaction speeds plus precog, since i believe frogman is the only one who negates it (And even then frogman has never negated instinctive action, nor can he mask killing intent...)

I don't know what you mean by she'd crash into walls lol, in canon she's never had that happen, she's more than capable of moving that fast with her amps active...

Ignoring other defenses like [Intangible], [Fortune], or clones using [Reversal], it's also not even in-character for hecate to use them straight away. It's implied she only uses them against someone who reminds her of the people who sent her to the insitution

Hecate calls them her 'ultimate revenge' on anyone who reminds her of the ones who sent her to the institution, destroying at a sub-atomic level.

Asuven have came this far without being cooked, i've already addressed this ability before I'm sure this won't happen.

 

[SSB64]

she'd still have some great reaction speeds plus precog

Reaction speeds are based on processing speeds or Instinct, and they both counter Precog so hard, it's not even funny.

I don't know what you mean by she'd crash into walls lol, in canon she's never had that happen, she's more than capable of moving that fast with her amps active...

In order for this to be true, she needs the processing speeds necessary to acknowledge the wall and not hit it by dodging. Without it, she'd crash into it.

Asuven have came this far without being cooked, i've already addressed this ability before I'm sure this won't happen.

If that's the case, then how do Frogate even hope to win? The laser weapon that could be made to be Anti-Fortune? Because according to you, Asunaven should easily be able to put a stop to it. But then again, if she can't, she's instantly screwed.....

Basically, now that I think about it, it just sounds like they both STOMP each other out, and the result is simply all up to interpretation of the contestants. No matter how good of arguments there seems to be, the other side has a perfect counter to it. This is also part of why I've been constantly ping-ponging back and forth between either side winning.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Basically, now that I think about it, it just sounds like they both STOMP each other out, and the result is simply all up to interpretation of the contestants. No matter how good of arguments there seems to be, the other side has a perfect counter to it. This is also part of why I've been constantly ping-ponging back and forth between either side winning.

It’s just wincons

 

[SSB64]

It’s just wincons

It certainly doesn't feel that way. It feels like when a character here has their perfect wincon, they have to negate the opponent's advantages in order for it to work. Otherwise, the other side gets their perfect wincon. That's how it feels to me, and hence why my thoughts on the winner keep radically changing constantly.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

It certainly doesn't feel that way. It feels like when a character here has their perfect wincon, they have to negate the opponent's advantages in order for it to work. Otherwise, the other side gets their perfect wincon. That's how it feels to me, and hence why my thoughts on the winner keep radically changing constantly.

In that case isn’t it incon

 

[Rayfire]

It certainly doesn't feel that way. It feels like when a character here has their perfect wincon, they have to negate the opponent's advantages in order for it to work. Otherwise, the other side gets their perfect wincon. That's how it feels to me, and hence why my thoughts on the winner keep radically changing constantly.

Isn’t this just every vs debate ever lol, I feel like you have to point out a problem with an opponent strategy/wincon if you see one, otherwise it’s not really a debate… If I didn’t try to justify why I think X from frogate wouldn’t work and why X from asuven would, this would have ended in like 6 replies or something lol

Froggy is not going to be happy at all at this rate. I’ll likely refrain from replying soon cause the amount of replies here that is accumulating is unfathomable

I feel like people should draw their own conclusions about this rather than going straight to incon. Incon is certainly possible with Hecate having at least some form of immediate probability manipulation of her own even if I feel it’s fairly limited in terms of range and whatnot, as well as the sandbox thing (Although if Hecate using her processing power, Asuna will instantly know what’s up, since she doesn’t resist info analysis) although nobody else seems to be going in this direction, cause so far it’s 3 votes to asuven and 2 to frogate. I think there’d have to be some pretty good weight behind incon other than some scenario’s out of countless others for everyone to vote for it.

 

[SSB64]

Isn’t this just every vs debate ever lol, I feel like you have to point out a problem with an opponent strategy/wincon if you see one, otherwise it’s not really a debate… If I didn’t try to justify why I think X from frogate wouldn’t work and why X from asuven would, this would have ended in like 6 replies or something lol

Froggy is not going to be happy at all at this rate. I’ll likely refrain from replying soon cause the amount of replies here that is accumulating is unfathomable

I feel like people should draw their own conclusions about this rather than going straight to incon. Incon is certainly possible with Hecate having at least some form of immediate probability manipulation of her own even if I feel it’s fairly limited in terms of range and whatnot, as well as the sandbox thing (Although if Hecate using her processing power, Asuna will instantly know what’s up, since she doesn’t resist info analysis) although nobody else seems to be going in this direction, cause so far it’s 3 votes to asuven and 2 to frogate. I think there’d have to be some pretty good weight behind incon other than some scenario’s out of countless others for everyone to vote for it.

I'm sticking with Asunaven based on what was mentioned before regardless.

 

[SSB64]

Isn’t this just every vs debate ever lol, I feel like you have to point out a problem with an opponent strategy/wincon if you see one, otherwise it’s not really a debate… If I didn’t try to justify why I think X from frogate wouldn’t work and why X from asuven would, this would have ended in like 6 replies or something lol

The issue with this is that, from personal debating experience, I've usually had opinion fluctuations during one rarely, if ever, even in Asunaven Vs Cold Destiny.

In this specific one however, I feel like my opinion keeps changing every message or two, and IDK why.

 

[Rayfire]

We may have our disagreements with SSB, And it's really unfortunate how the end of this tourney has been so far, but right now, it's time to leave the past behind us. Like a DRILL, we have to keep moving forward in spite of any stress or negative influence, and focus on creating a path towards our ideal tomorrow! It doesn't matter what happens in the past, because in the present, we carve our own direction towards a brighter future!

AND THAT'S WHY I CHOOSE TO KEEP GOING! NO BAD EVENT IS GOING TO STOP US FROM ENJOYING THE THREAD! BECAUSE OUR DRILL IS THE DRILL... THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!

I believe i did address a lot of what vene has said in that reply, but i'll try sum it up:

• Asuna massively upscales from dodging thousands of projectiles during the fight in the dark forest. It was her best dodging feat in beginning-of-series key but she's a lot stronger than that now lol, and this is on dodging alone...
• Javen wouldn't be THAT broken. Even jack, who lacked supernatural willpower, could still move & fight since he was a low sin-meter. Javen is obviously a hero so he will be a low sin-meter too, and having supwill stacked on top of it in any way will obviously help. It's not like he just won't defend himself.
• Asuna & Javen have numerous ways to defend against the red laser storm as i've listed before, like [Intangible] and [Reversal], plus [Fortune] remains a good counter which i'll explain later on here. They aren't limited to just moving around and dodging lol

There isn't... really anything stopping them from just making more though, they don't run out of clones in their arsenal and that's it Furthermore javen can likely make far more than asuna can with one skill usage judging from how they fought cobalt, so if asuna transfers [Reversal] to him thanks to javens Power Absorption, The effects would be even greater than before due to bigger numbers

In this case, the duo will definitely have way more clones than frogman does, and thus he would be living on borrowed time, as he will eventually run out of clones to transfer damage along which i'm certain is what you mean when you say frogmens body and clones could get obliterated. Plus, even if the clones can freely transfer the damage back to the main asuna & javen, asuna can undo any physical damage she takes with healing magic, and javen is entirely unaffected by High 6-A attacks.

[Fortune] makes the duo statistically much more likely to avoid it if their intent is to reach either frogman or hecate, though. It doesn't guarantee anything bad at all...

Asuna's precog isn't quite the same, though. Frogman seems to get precog through sheer calculative power, but asuna's is also listed as Instinctive Action which isn't something frogmen have shown to negate afaik. Unless frogman can hide his killing intent, i'm not really convinced asuna's precog just won't work. And even then there's still plenty of ways the duo can defend...

It is possible asuven can immediately give chase to the BFR core. Asuna's riftways have Interdimensional Range, swhich can travel into parts of other universes, so they are more than capable of following it and destroying it, especially since it is presumably much weaker than the actual stage 4 And even if Asuna & Javen couldn't do this, they still benefit from this, as frogman will be weaker.

It is very likely that asuna's Minor Information Analysis will let her know what's going on and stop them before they achieve this by, well, using [Fortune] for her and javen to land hits anyway, as she can decipher what someone's intent, abilities, & weaknesses are mid-fight, like she did with kedron thanks to her natural battle smarts, even without prior knowledge. And this is assuming asuven aren't already pressured to do so by Hecate & Frogman's already crazy hax

And while frogman does resist Information Analysis (Like a lot of things lol) Hecate, Meanwhile, lacks it. This means that, by teaming up with hecate to do this, hecate is only dragging her teammate down, as it will be clear as day to asuna what they are trying to achieve and she and javen will stop them, including using, well, [Fortune] to bring them bad luck in the process while it is active so that they can get hits in. The only option for frogman, therefore, would be to do it by himself, but that would simply take way too much time as mentioned here...

This also doesn't account for the fact that Frogate's impressive brainpower would simultaneously be spent elsewhere as well, such as strategising on the fight, which will still slow down this process by some degree even if they mostly focus on this new saber. In any case, this still isn't guaranteed to work at all, especially when there's other wincons for asuven like the Star Strategy (Which i planned to expand upon, but i wanna keep this as short as possible so i don't upset an already-stressed froggy...) So covering for fortune is only one piece of the puzzle

There are some more details that follow this specific reply, although I’m just making sure this doesn’t get buried in case anyone wants to vote although I’d wait a bit longer for froggy perhaps, even though he hasn’t been here all day. In which case I’ll reply as soon as I can

 

[Froggytron]

There are some more details that follow this specific reply, although I’m just making sure this doesn’t get buried in case anyone wants to vote although I’d wait a bit longer for froggy perhaps, even though he hasn’t been here all day. In which case I’ll reply as soon as I can

I really have minimum time this weekend, but I did read at least your replies to 3x reasons I voted Frogtace, I will try to reply in short later today.

 

[Froggytron]

I believe i did address a lot of what vene has said in that reply, but i'll try sum it up:

• Asuna massively upscales from dodging thousands of projectiles during the fight in the dark forest. It was her best dodging feat in beginning-of-series key but she's a lot stronger than that now lol, and this is on dodging alone...
• Javen wouldn't be THAT broken. Even jack, who lacked supernatural willpower, could still move & fight since he was a low sin-meter. Javen is obviously a hero so he will be a low sin-meter too, and having supwill stacked on top of it in any way will obviously help. It's not like he just won't defend himself.
• Asuna & Javen have numerous ways to defend against the red laser storm as i've listed before, like [Intangible] and [Reversal], plus [Fortune] remains a good counter which i'll explain later on here. They aren't limited to just moving around and dodging lol

I still don't see this being enough to compensate, even if upscaling from dozens of thousands, millions are another league here Also worth mentioning that '[Intangible] and [Reversal], plus [Fortune]' make up for 100% denying power the Golden Laser Storm, check this passage. Either the Red Laser's adaptiveness allows some hit on the originals and clones to go through => nearly one hits with Golden + R.L. effects, or it extremely reduces their capabilities in other ways, even surviving Golden Laser Storm seems unlikely by me (with Frogman being ready to abuse any openings with portals + charged 1-hit melee options). So I still stand on my arguments of Frogtace edging, voting Frogtace.

There isn't... really anything stopping them from just making more though, they don't run out of clones in their arsenal and that's it Furthermore javen can likely make far more than asuna can with one skill usage judging from how they fought cobalt, so if asuna transfers [Reversal] to him thanks to javens Power Absorption, The effects would be even greater than before due to bigger numbers

In this case, the duo will definitely have way more clones than frogman does, and thus he would be living on borrowed time, as he will eventually run out of clones to transfer damage along which i'm certain is what you mean when you say frogmens body and clones could get obliterated. Plus, even if the clones can freely transfer the damage back to the main asuna & javen, asuna can undo any physical damage she takes with healing magic, and javen is entirely unaffected by High 6-A attacks.

But if they spam on the last moments more clones (masses of them), even a single true 2-sec-rewind negates that (heck, it could perhaps rewind the damages before Frogman + all clones are 100% obliterated, given that main Frogman can transfer into some of his clones once dying if they are set as backup, where that is guaranteed given Frogman is triggered to use precog now). So I still stand on my Frogtace vote here.

[Fortune] makes the duo statistically much more likely to avoid it if their intent is to reach either frogman or hecate, though. It doesn't guarantee anything bad at all...

Asuna's precog isn't quite the same, though. Frogman seems to get precog through sheer calculative power, but asuna's is also listed as Instinctive Action which isn't something frogmen have shown to negate afaik. Unless frogman can hide his killing intent, i'm not really convinced asuna's precog just won't work. And even then there's still plenty of ways the duo can defend...

It is possible asuven can immediately give chase to the BFR core. Asuna's riftways have Interdimensional Range, swhich can travel into parts of other universes, so they are more than capable of following it and destroying it, especially since it is presumably much weaker than the actual stage 4 And even if Asuna & Javen couldn't do this, they still benefit from this, as frogman will be weaker.

It is very likely that asuna's Minor Information Analysis will let her know what's going on and stop them before they achieve this by, well, using [Fortune] for her and javen to land hits anyway, as she can decipher what someone's intent, abilities, & weaknesses are mid-fight, like she did with kedron thanks to her natural battle smarts, even without prior knowledge. And this is assuming asuven aren't already pressured to do so by Hecate & Frogman's already crazy hax

And while frogman does resist Information Analysis (Like a lot of things lol) Hecate, Meanwhile, lacks it. This means that, by teaming up with hecate to do this, hecate is only dragging her teammate down, as it will be clear as day to asuna what they are trying to achieve and she and javen will stop them, including using, well, [Fortune] to bring them bad luck in the process while it is active so that they can get hits in. The only option for frogman, therefore, would be to do it by himself, but that would simply take way too much time as mentioned here...

This also doesn't account for the fact that Frogate's impressive brainpower would simultaneously be spent elsewhere as well, such as strategising on the fight, which will still slow down this process by some degree even if they mostly focus on this new saber. In any case, this still isn't guaranteed to work at all, especially when there's other wincons for asuven like the Star Strategy (Which i planned to expand upon, but i wanna keep this as short as possible so i don't upset an already-stressed froggy...) So covering for fortune is only one piece of the puzzle

But why would nearly perfect precog by the internal core brain not see moves of instinctive action? It simply precogs events in future, Frogman can have a blurry look into that with a developed organ (which on it's own should be capable of seeing future stuff)

How would they track Frogman's core though?

But Sandbox Saber with Hecate's blended IQ allows to alter literal counters to their moves on the first try.

Hecate can operate trillions of things, its with near certainty guaranteed that she will notice this before AsuJaven, they can find ways to block it.

^ anyway, I still don't believe AsuJaven are surviving Tree Saber or Golden Storm (with close to 99-100% odds), having means of catching up later further makes me confident in voting Frogtace.

Anyway thanks Rayfire for keeping up the replies shorter this time, you really tried! If we both belive "our team wins", and there are 7 pages of worthy debate, if there really is nothing to solve anything anymore, maybe then the "incon rule" will apply soon due to no real results being agreed on. To be fair, rather than arguing for another weeks, the incon would almost be better, even though Frogtace seems to be winning on low-mid hard diff without the battle being long even at bad luck. So we will see...

 

[SSB64]

^ anyway, I still don't believe AsuJaven are surviving Tree Saber or Golden Storm (with close to 99-100% odds), having means of catching up later further makes me confident in voting Frogtace.

As was already addressed by Rayfire, it seems like it would be OOC for Hecate to use the Golden Laser Storm on Asunaven due to its explanation that it's used on people who remind her of her time at the Institution, so the only real worry for Asunaven would be the Tree Saber.

I still don't see this being enough to compensate, even if upscaling from dozens of thousands, millions are another league here

And keep in mind, the Asuna that dodged that mass of projectiles was from all the way back in Chapter 3 without any speed amps. Asuna has obviously gotten much more skilled, faced opponents significantly faster than her, and has gained a ton of speed amps she can utilize. Dodging the Tree Saber shouldn't be too big of a problem with all of that in mind. The Spagmatrons wouldn't even be able to speed steal her fast enough before she wipes all of them out at once (IIRC, Asuna also has Danmaku of her own). If he rewinds them back, she can do it again, and if he can only do it so many times, his lives are going to run out (That, and the fact hat rewinding time would negate the stolen speed, keeping Asuna at the same speed, and she can pressure Frogman away from Hecate as a result

And if Hecate tries to help or get close, Javen uses his massive AP advantage and insane AOE to hold her off and distract her with clones and stars. This would also delay the creation of the Sandbox Saber, which, even if for a few moments, would give Asuna's Danger Sense the time it needs to register this due to Hecate being distracted, causing her brain capacity to slow down and spread out quite a bit, especially since she's having to.....

• Put her attention on multiple Javen's fighting her at once.
• Destroy/Avoid multiple stars at once.
• Think about and learn the process of making the perfect Sandbox Saber.
• Think about Asuna's position and moveset to make that perfect Saber.
• Actually make the Sandbox Saber.
• Keep herself close enough to Frogman that Asunaven don't immediately curb their teamwork.
• Know about Asuna's [Playback] and take that into account.
• Know when and where to give it to Frogman to ensure a hit.

All of this, and more, within less than 1/150th of the time she'd normally be doing it in.

At best, Hecate is stretching her brain to its limits here, and at worst, she gets overwhelmed enough to get defeated by Javen.

Going back to Asuna, once she's destroyed his Level 3 Spagmatron soldiers enough times to where Frogman runs out of rewinds (He has a finite amount, even if it is good, and the rewinds wouldn't let him go back in time far enough to let him dodge effectively,) she has quite a few more ways of dealing with him, especially with Hecate's physical distance from Frogman, as well as Javen's stats and battlefield control, keeping Hecate busy. And if Asuna's attempt to do this fails, Asuna can [Playback] to try it again, and if that next attempt fails, enough time will have passed for into likely be ready for use again.

Even without that, Asuna's [Fortune] might make Frogman, and (Since he's connected to her), Hecate directly), act a bit strange, and likely cause the wrong Sandbox Saber to be made.

Simply put, Frogate's best wincons are either unreliable, OOC, or incredibly risky since it opens the gateway for a likely Asunaven W. This is just one possibility I can see for Asunaven winning, so I'm sticking with them.

 

[Rayfire]

I still don't see this being enough to compensate, even if upscaling from dozens of thousands, millions are another league here Also worth mentioning that '[Intangible] and [Reversal], plus [Fortune]' make up for 100% denying power the Golden Laser Storm, check this passage. Either the Red Laser's adaptiveness allows some hit on the originals and clones to go through => nearly one hits with Golden + R.L. effects, or it extremely reduces their capabilities in other ways, even surviving Golden Laser Storm seems unlikely by me (with Frogman being ready to abuse any openings with portals + charged 1-hit melee options). So I still stand on my arguments of Frogtace edging, voting Frogtace.

Adapting seems entirely situational though. Plus i imagine it'd take time especially considering there is little evidence i can see (Or that has been brought up) that frogmen have encountered anything like luck magic before. Against Golden Laser Storm i think asuven are highly likely to use [Fortune], which by that point it'd be too late to do anything about it for other reasons below.

Hecate using her Golden Laser Fire this quickly also, again, doesn't quite sit right with me. It's implied on it's description that she only uses it if the people she's fighting remind her of the people who sent her to the institution, and Asuna & Javen are nothing like that... So the effectiveness of this move kinda loses weight

I think i should also mention that, even if frogman can block asuna's riftways, it really isn't that hard for asuna to substitute it with some sort of teleporting skill to get out of it's range with Power Creation. Like, she already made riftways mid-fight against an extremely casual chidori. Teleporting her and javen should be much more simple. I doubt frogman could block this

But if they spam on the last moments more clones (masses of them), even a single true 2-sec-rewind negates that (heck, it could perhaps rewind the damages before Frogman + all clones are 100% obliterated, given that main Frogman can transfer into some of his clones once dying if they are set as backup, where that is guaranteed given Frogman is triggered to use precog now). So I still stand on my Frogtace vote here.

That could work, but asuna will still remember all the rewinds thanks to Memory-Based Acausality, and so will javen if asuna informs him about the rewinds. I feel like this will just send frogate 6 feet under more quickly as it makes asuna way more likely to use the things she can in order to defeat frogate. If frogman rewinds everything asuven does, then it would pretty much go like this lol (Imagine bill is asuna using [Fortune] to counter this )

Keep in mind that [Fortune] also alters an opponents behaviour, like the NPC in the adventurers tournament suddenly becoming scared of asuna for example. so it is very probable that frogate will resort to other methods if this happens.

But why would nearly perfect precog by the internal core brain not see moves of instinctive action? It simply precogs events in future, Frogman can have a blurry look into that with a developed organ (which on it's own should be capable of seeing future stuff)

How would they track Frogman's core though?

But Sandbox Saber with Hecate's blended IQ allows to alter literal counters to their moves on the first try.

Hecate can operate trillions of things, its with near certainty guaranteed that she will notice this before AsuJaven, they can find ways to block it.

^ anyway, I still don't believe AsuJaven are surviving Tree Saber or Golden Storm (with close to 99-100% odds), having means of catching up later further makes me confident in voting Frogtace.

I wasn't trying to say asuna could negate frogman's precog, i was saying that frogman couldn't negate asuna's because it's an entirely different form of it they've never encountered lol. If they both have precog i don't think the ability itself will be super relevant anyway, since they'll just cancel each other out. Equal footing, as i usually say...

Asuna would definitely know the core has gone somewhere (I mean, if she didn't, i feel this would break SBA because she and javen would think the fight was over) so i guess trial and error? Idk lol, but in any case, frogman would be leaving hecate on her own and that will obviously make the fight way harder for her, especially since it's implied that the regeneration process takes days according to the BFR core profile, and even then the frogman will still be weaker afterwards judging by your previous reply

The core then slowly regenerates back into a full Laser Frogman in a matter of days, being mostly in hiding until that point.

This is why i mentioned that either way, if Frogman ends up getting BFR'd, and he miraculously survives [Fortune] this way, it's still benefical to asuven. Having multiple days of prep before frogman comes back is also extremely benefical to asuna in particular, thanks to Accelerated Development. She'd be able to develop any skills that are handy to much greater heights if she is entirely focused on this fight, even if she can't find and destroy the core

I still highly doubt it'd be instant though. Hecate's IQ will obviously speed up the process, but even someone as smart and experienced as this key of frogman takes hours to make a new saber. Even if they could do this in something like 15 seconds with hecate intending to help frogman, that's still more than enough time for asuna to activate [Fortune] and bring them, well, unfortunate circumstances and/or make her and javen very likely to land a killing blow...

I should note that, outside of adapting to things that negate hecate's regeneration, Hecate actually lacks the ability to adapt to new abilities unless she uses Mother Mode Mk. 2 specifically, which she doesn't here. I highly doubt she could just block out asuna's info analysis, especially when it's just battle smarts lol, it doesn't require a scanner or anything.

Anyway thanks Rayfire for keeping up the replies shorter this time, you really tried! If we both belive "our team wins", and there are 7 pages of worthy debate, if there really is nothing to solve anything anymore, maybe then the "incon rule" will apply soon due to no real results being agreed on. To be fair, rather than arguing for another weeks, the incon would almost be better, even though Frogtace seems to be winning on low-mid hard diff without the battle being long even at bad luck. So we will see...

Np dude lol, sorry again about the whole misunderstanding about voting time

This is a very good point. I have my counterarguments above, but if neither party is convinced the other team will win i think this is grounds for an inconclusive result. I still obviously think asuven have a very strong chance of winning here, but incon will obviously be a good middle ground for both teams. If you and vene want to change to incon then i will as well. Our Drills can do amazing things, but sometimes it is best to drill towards a future that benefits everyone...

Probably the best result if this goes forward though. Both teams will simply hang out and become friends after realising that fighting is pretty pointless. That seems like a perfect ending...

 

[SSB64]

Now for Rayfire to give Asunaven one final PUUUUUUSH!

 

[SSB64]

Even if they could do this in something like 15 seconds with hecate intending to help frogman, that's still more than enough time for asuna to activate [Fortune] and bring them, well, unfortunate circumstances and/or make her and javen very likely to land a killing blow...

Don't forget that Asuna can make this problem even worse for Hecate by amping Javen and having him distract her, making the situation even worse for her, especially if Asuna and Javen throw their clones into the mix.

And honestly, for the first time in this tournament's entire runtime, my opinion on Asunaven is actually REALLY solid. Yeah. I'm not fluctuating on this anymore. It just seems as if Asunaven have too many reliable ways to deal with Frogate whereas Frogate have only niche methods of grabbing the W.

Not to mention, outside of the characters ,it seems as if the only two people who currently side with Frogate are their creators. As for Asunaven, outside of Rayfire, I'm still in said Asunaven camp, as is one other person. Outside of the creators, it's 2 votes for Asunaven and no votes for Frogate. If either creator of Frogate switched their opinion to Asunaven

Both teams will simply hang out and become friends after realising that fighting is pretty pointless. That seems like a perfect ending...

I know this was supposed to be a joke, but according to the standard Vs rules, this would never happen. They will keep fighting until either side goes down.

 

[SSB64]

Also, the fact that an Incon would lead to Cold Destiny winning the Tourney would be..... Interesting, to say the least.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

A few things wrong about Hecate here

Hecate using her Golden Laser Fire this quickly also, again, doesn't quite sit right with me. It's implied on it's description that she only uses it if the people she's fighting remind her of the people who sent her to the institution, and Asuna & Javen are nothing like that... So the effectiveness of this move kinda loses weight

This isn’t exactly accurate, it says that because that’s sort of what it was designed for but also considering that this is “golden” Hecate and those are the “golden” lasers, NOT using it also defeats the point it’s basically the mech selling point outside of the general enhancements

I should note that, outside of adapting to things that negate hecate's regeneration, Hecate actually lacks the ability to adapt to new abilities unless she uses Mother Mode Mk. 2 specifically, which she doesn't here. I highly doubt she could just block out asuna's info analysis, especially when it's just battle smarts lol, it doesn't require a scanner or anything.

Definitely not true, golden maintains many greater versions of all the previous mech stuff it’s just not all listed twice because that would bloat the profile and be generally redundant. Otherwise what would be the point of new mechs? Hecate is constantly improving. Plus how would Asuna info analysis stuff happening in the mind she doesn’t have mind

And honestly, for the first time in this tournament's entire runtime, my opinion on Asunaven is actually REALLY solid. Yeah. I'm not fluctuating on this anymore. It just seems as if Asunaven have too many reliable ways to deal with Frogate whereas Frogate have only niche methods of grabbing the W.

Hmm I thought frogate was way too op and needed to be dq’d on page one with zero counters to their stuff, so crazy


In the spirit of ending this thing though and with all options reviewed, I’m just gonna vote incon now. Can yall join up so we can just end this thing? It’s stayed well past its welcome and it’s continued existence is in and of itself stressful

 

[MintyBoi1]

Can I just get a list of win cons for both teams to see what’s more likely?

 

[SSB64]

Definitely not true, golden maintains many greater versions of all the previous mech stuff it’s just not all listed twice because that would bloat the profile and be generally redundant.

Is it mentioned anywhere on its profile that it maintains every ability that it had before? Just curious.

Hmm I thought frogate was way too op and needed to be dq’d on page one with zero counters to their stuff, so crazy

Indeed they are. Also, again, I still persnally think, even without Asunaven bias, that Asunaven have too many counters for them, so unfortunately, I'm not planning on switching my vote.

 

[SSB64]

Can I just get a list of win cons for both teams to see what’s more likely?

This. Honestly, getting an unbias third opinion would help break this impasse.

 

[Rayfire]

Definitely not true, golden maintains many greater versions of all the previous mech stuff it’s just not all listed twice because that would bloat the profile and be generally redundant. Otherwise what would be the point of new mechs? Hecate is constantly improving. Plus how would Asuna info analysis stuff happening in the mind she doesn’t have mind

I mean, she can see weaknesses and the nature of opponents pretty quickly thanks to pure battle smarts, plus what kind of strategy their going for which is partly why Asuna wasted in no time in immediately destroying the dark forest to get rid of kedron. She’ll be able to tell what they’ll try to do, and she’s done this even against unfamiliar opponents If that makes any sense.

I still doubt adaptation would block this sort of info analysis tho. Asuna doesn’t use a scanner or anything lol

Can I just get a list of win cons for both teams to see what’s more likely?

For frogate it’s having enough time to develop a Saber to counter things like [Fortune] mostly, as well as using the Golden Laser Storm strategy to take them out before then (Although if asuven is pressured I find it unlikely Asuna won’t use it lol)

For asuven, it’s simply a matter of using [Fortune], and thus making it statistically very likely for them to land hits (Which is very important in javen’s case) or doing something similair to what asuven did against cobalt and destiny, making many stars/supernova’s to take them out the second the earth is moved out of the way. (Froggy has yet to make a counterarg to this though, so that second one may or may not be applicable)

It looks like we’re going for an incon though, we can’t really agree on a specific outcome. If you could join in, that’d be great

In the spirit of ending this thing though and with all options reviewed, I’m just gonna vote incon now. Can yall join up so we can just end this thing? It’s stayed well past its welcome and it’s continued existence is in and of itself stressful

Yeah, I’ll change my vote to incon

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Is it mentioned anywhere on its profile that it maintains every ability that it had before? Just curious.

Indeed they are. Also, again, I still persnally think, even without Asunaven bias, that Asunaven have too many counters for them, so unfortunately, I'm not planning on switching my vote.

It’s implied, unless you think Hecate is an idiot this should be obvious…

I just want you to admit the dq talk has been directed the wrong way…

 

[SSB64]

Also, one final thing.

After looking through this entire convo one more time, I'm starting to notice that Venefica and Froggy's arguments were overall not as solid as Rayfire's arguments.

Yeah, I’ll change my vote to incon

So if a Tourney match is Incon, what happens? IIRC, from reading Asuna Vs Spagmatron, the match simply keeps going, though the goal changes to who can make more progress on the other.

I just want you to admit the dq talk has been directed the wrong way…

I said I would do that only if Asunaven win. If it's an Incon, I have no need to do that.

 

[Rayfire]

So if a Tourney match is Incon, what happens? IIRC, from reading Asuna Vs Spagmatron, the match simply keeps going, though the goal changes to who can make more progress on the other.

Well, this would be different. There’s no actual need for either team to move on to “continue” the tourney, since there’s no other opponent they need to face after this. so I imagine they’d share the W spot in this instance

 

[MintyBoi1]

For frogate it’s having enough time to develop a Saber to counter things like [Fortune] mostly, as well as using the Golden Laser Storm strategy to take them out before then (Although if asuven is pressured I find it unlikely Asuna won’t use it lol)

For asuven, it’s simply a matter of using [Fortune], and thus making it statistically very likely for them to land hits (Which is very important in javen’s case) or doing something similair to what asuven did against cobalt and destiny, making many stars/supernova’s to take them out the second the earth is moved out of the way. (Froggy has yet to make a counterarg to this though, so that second one may or may not be applicable)

It looks like we’re going for an incon though, we can’t really agree on a specific outcome. If you could join in, that’d be great

Yeah, I’ll change my vote to incon

So Froggy/Hecate are best in the early/mid game and AsuVen best in the long game. They also seemingly have Asuna’s intuition to guess what Frocate will do next. Still, it seems like this is really just up to strategy which is a whole battle between Frocate’s intelligence and AsuVen’s ingenuity. I’m fine voting Incon if you guys agree, though I lean AsuVen for better destructive options and Fortune.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Incon fra