[FINALS] Asuna Kamakura & Javen vs Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate [GRACE]

[SSB64]

Dude, you’re genuinely seeing different things than me. Everyone besides you and Chariot agreed DIO and Clover’s hax combined were too OP to mess with in a tournament setting so they were disqualified, that’s it.

Because nobody was willing to do any further research like what everyone is doing right now for Frogate. Again. Almost anyone who did a proper dive in would know the blatant weaknesses of them which would've ironically lead to Dio + Clover losing in the Finals to Asunaven, so are Asunaven too broken by proxy? Of course not. So neither are Dio + Clover. I can only say who they lose to so many times before I start believing that everyone is genuinely trying to troll me.

It’s not our fault Clover and DIO was an unexpectedly broken combo, and we’re just trying to have a satisfying finals match here.

It's not my fault Hecate and Frogate are a broken combo either, same with Max and Jack Skille, and arguably Asuna and Javen too. Conveniently though, my combo is somehow the only broken one since again, nobody seems to have wanted to bother doing proper research on them.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Because nobody was willing to do any further research like what everyone is doing right now for Frogate. Again. Almost anyone who did a proper dive in would know the blatant weaknesses of them which would've ironically lead to Dio + Clover losing in the Finals to Asunaven, so are Asunaven too broken by proxy? Of course not. So neither are Dio + Clover. I can only say who they lose to so many times before I start believing that everyone is genuinely trying to troll me.

It's not my fault Hecate and Frogate are a broken combo either, same with Max and Jack Skille, and arguably Asuna and Javen too. Conveniently though, my combo is somehow the only broken one since again, nobody seems to have wanted to bother doing proper research on them.

So because they might’ve had a specific counter in Asunaven, that changes the general unfairness of being able to come back for nothing possibly infinite times? The only way to beat Clover is to either knock them out which generally isn’t the best way to end things in a fight like this and hard to do with them being stat stomped by a lot of characters or make them give up which is an unknown variable because we don’t know how long it’d take for them to stop resetting the timeline and arguing it would be annoying. That’s a lot to ask and I don’t know how many teams could reliably do that when DIO is also stopping time and blitzing everyone with his hax. I know Clover and DIO’s abilities pretty well and so does Leo, so I think we have enough research done to make a conclusion. You’re not the creator of this tournament, Leo decides what flies and what’s fair and most of the people in this thread agree with their decision. That’s just how a tournament works. The creator makes the rules and tries to make sure everyone follows them.

Difference is Hecate and Froggy don’t have an instant save me even after I’ve died 100 times button. It’s a clear tip in Clover’s favor in any match with no way to beat it unless you also have something similar or some sort of information analysis to know you need to knock them out.

 

[SSB64]

So because they might’ve had a specific counter in Asunaven, that changes

And Max and Jack beat them, as does Dark Delta, and Cold Destiny beat them too. I can list more characters who could beat Dio + Clover than I could for who beats Frogate. As I've said to Venefica, Frogate don't fall under the "Can be beaten by most characters in the tourney" threshold either.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I do feel like it would've been received way better if Dio was the primary reason they got disqualified and not Clover.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I'm getting to the point now where I'm seriously becoming stressed and paranoid of even trying to have fun and relaxation online because of it

Cute and ironic

Reply to me again after you’ve literally been forced to block all forum notifications

Also literally zero point to continuing this talk besides just trying to give everyone a hard time and piss me off, and dude, you do not wanna go there, trust me

 

[SSB64]

I do feel like it would've been received way better if Dio was the primary reason they got disqualified and not Clover.

Kinda. Even Dio isn't that broken, especially when he's byfar the physically frailest in the tournament, and by Tourney rules, weaker characters get more leeway with Hax (Which quite frankly, Versatility wise, Dio just had that layered NPI based on what Chariot190 said. Not sure if Dio's page actually says this since all I saw was that he had NPI.) Not to mention, with both Hecate and Javen, as well as some characters who beat Clover like Dark Delta having ways to instantly destroy Dio, he isn't all too broken, even with The World layered NPI, especially since sunlight and Sun based attacks are such a massive weakness for Dio given he's, you know.....

Cute and ironic

Reply to me again after you’ve literally been forced to block all forum notifications

Also literally zero point to continuing this talk besides just trying to give everyone a hard time and piss me off, and dude, you do not wanna go there, trust me

Not surprised that you truly lack sympathy about my situation. I wouldn't expect anything less from your true nature. BTW, I literally just did that yesterday, so that idea is mute.

 

[SSB64]

Furthermore, I should explain my thinking process as to the vote pile and why I did it.

It was a mix of multiple factors. Both Venefica and Froggy mentioning their stressful schedules and how Venefica didn't want to continue this thread for much longer, Rayfire and mine's desire for Asunaven to win, and by waiting for Venifica and Froggy to respond, it would've likely resulted in a Frogate STOMP (Given that, as I've mentioned, Asunaven would basically have zero counters), which would satisfy no one since that result would just negate anyone from winning the Tourney medal due to rules (The medal can't be added to profiles if it's a STOMP). So when Rayfire started a voting chain, I saw an opportunity to kill three or four birds with one stone. An Asunaven W that wasn't a STOMP, a lack of a weight on Venefica's, Froggy's, and my backs, and the ability to put the Tourney behind us seeing as it hasn't been the most pleasant one, to say the least, and stopping it then would've allowed us to avoid what's going on right now.

That was my thought process when I casted my vote.

 

[SSB64]

Difference is Hecate and Froggy don’t have an instant save me even after I’ve died 100 times button.

2-3 Second Rewinds accomplish this too, especially since there's 80 Spagmatrons that can also use it at a far more rapid rate than Clover. Not to mention that Frogman can send things back through time so if Clover RESETs, the timeline will be different and render the RESET mostly null.

That, and Max and Dark Delta counter this ability really hard (Max because he can guarantee Clover's death every time, and Dark Delta because Clover's RESETs don't work interdimensionally.

 

[SSB64]

Anyways, if this ridiculousness is to continue, I'm thinking it's gotta go elsewhere. Maybe somewhere on Discord or something so as not to clog up the thread for the fight to continue.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Anyways, if this ridiculousness is to continue, I'm thinking it's gotta go elsewhere. Maybe somewhere on Discord or something so as not to clog up the thread for the fight to continue.

My guy you are not taking this to Discord. Nobody agrees with you here and nobody wants to hear you yap anymore than you already are.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Lol screw everything about this thread, seriously, this is the worst match I’ve literally ever had

 

[SSB64]

My guy you are not taking this to Discord. Nobody agrees with you here and nobody wants to hear you yap anymore than you already are.

That's just called an Appeal to Majority Fallacy. Not exactly a valid thing to say, especially since nobody has yet to validly argue my points.

 

[Rayfire]

Lol screw everything about this thread, seriously, this is the worst match I’ve literally ever had

I kinda feel you, in fact im sort of feeling encouraged to vote frogate just to get this over with... Not that i will, but i don't like vs threads with this much drama. It shouldn't be this way. It should be fun

I'll probably leave this thread till tomorrow when i feel ready to counter-argue froggy's point, the whole SSB thing isn't helping with this lol

 

[SSB64]

the whole SSB thing isn't helping with this lol

I know. I'm trying to think of at least something I can do to at least quell this or move this away from the Thread, but any choice I make only leads to me getting negated on it, and forcing it to keep going.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

That's just called an Appeal to Majority Fallacy. Not exactly a valid thing to say, especially since nobody has yet to validly argue my points.

Just stop bloating the tourney thread with arguments against a decision that's long since been set in stone and in a thread that has nothing to do with the characters you're talking about. We're here to argue about Asuna and Javen vs Frogman and Hecate, not about the Clover DQ.

 

[SSB64]

Just stop bloating the tourney thread with arguments against a decision that's long since been set in stone and in a thread that has nothing to do with the characters you're talking about. We're here to argue about Asuna and Javen vs Frogman and Hecate, not about the Clover DQ.

The Clover DQ has everything to do with this fight since if Frogate wins, it just proves the bias and rulebreaking of these Tourneys. I've already proven time and time again why Frogate are more broken than The SOUL, but all anyone can come up with is acting like a broken record and either repeating the same points over and over again, or repeatedly saying "Suck it up and deal with it" while completely ignoring Frogate having the exact same problems as The SOUL, if not more so. You're not an exception on the broken record part. I don't want to repeat myself for the bajillionth time, so I will halt my arguments for now. Instead, here's an ultimatum.

Since you don't want to DQ Frogate despite everything I mentioned, it will go like this.


If Asunaven win, I will take back everything I said about this Tourney and everyone in it, and I will step back from Forums for an entire week to contemplate my words and such, and I will sincerely apologize for my actions.

But if Frogate win, then I don't need to take anything back since I will have proven myself correct on my points. Everyone who has done to me what I've said I have a problem with will owe me an apology, and the fight will not count towards any W-L ratios because of the fact that I've proven myself correct on Frogate having no counters other than Venefica's own character, and the SOUL.

BTW, one caveat to this is that this ultimatum should not influence the final outcome in anyway. If Frogate win, then Frogate win. Don't let me change that.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

The Clover DQ has everything to do with this fight since if Frogate wins, it just proves the bias and rulebreaking of these Tourneys. I've already proven time and time again why Frogate are more broken than The SOUL, but all anyone can come up with is acting like a broken record and either repeating the same points over and over again, or repeatedly saying "Suck it up and deal with it" while completely ignoring Frogate having the exact same problems as The SOUL, if not more so. You're not an exception on the broken record part. I don't want to repeat myself for the bajillionth time, so I will halt my arguments for now. Instead, here's an ultimatum.

Since you don't want to DQ Frogate despite everything I mentioned, it will go like this.


If Asunaven win, I will take back everything I said about this Tourney and everyone in it, and I will step back from Forums for an entire week to contemplate my words and such, and I will sincerely apologize for my actions.

But if Frogate win, then I don't need to take anything back since I will have proven myself correct on my points. Everyone who has done to me what I've said I have a problem with will owe me an apology, and the fight will not count towards any W-L ratios because of the fact that I've proven myself correct on Frogate having no counters other than Venefica's own character, and the SOUL.

BTW, one caveat to this is that this ultimatum should not influence the final outcome in anyway. If Frogate win, then Frogate win. Don't let me change that.

It's actually hilarious that you think you're getting an apology if Frogate wins. It's also hilarious that you think your opinion magically has more power than anyone else's, and that you can decide if a match "counts" or not. Outside of yourself, no one's going to follow this.

Your "ultimatum" is about as ridiculous as you think the DQ is.

 

[SSB64]

It's actually hilarious that you think you're getting an apology if Frogate wins. It's also hilarious that you think your opinion magically has more power than anyone else's, and that you can decide if a match "counts" or not. Outside of yourself, no one's going to follow this.

Your "ultimatum" is about as ridiculous as you think the DQ is.

As I said. I'll stop the arguing, and the ultimatum is now in effect, so it's best if you stop arguing too so that this doesn't continue like everyone here doesn't want it to continue.

 

[Rayfire]

We may have our disagreements with SSB, And it's really unfortunate how the end of this tourney has been so far, but right now, it's time to leave the past behind us. Like a DRILL, we have to keep moving forward in spite of any stress or negative influence, and focus on creating a path towards our ideal tomorrow! It doesn't matter what happens in the past, because in the present, we carve our own direction towards a brighter future!

AND THAT'S WHY I CHOOSE TO KEEP GOING! NO BAD EVENT IS GOING TO STOP US FROM ENJOYING THE THREAD! BECAUSE OUR DRILL IS THE DRILL... THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!

So I'm bringing this out now again, please people read this, its crucial.

I believe i did address a lot of what vene has said in that reply, but i'll try sum it up:

• Asuna massively upscales from dodging thousands of projectiles during the fight in the dark forest. It was her best dodging feat in beginning-of-series key but she's a lot stronger than that now lol, and this is on dodging alone...
• Javen wouldn't be THAT broken. Even jack, who lacked supernatural willpower, could still move & fight since he was a low sin-meter. Javen is obviously a hero so he will be a low sin-meter too, and having supwill stacked on top of it in any way will obviously help. It's not like he just won't defend himself.
• Asuna & Javen have numerous ways to defend against the red laser storm as i've listed before, like [Intangible] and [Reversal], plus [Fortune] remains a good counter which i'll explain later on here. They aren't limited to just moving around and dodging lol

This desperate solution is Asuna's grave. It's true Frogman's body (likely including all his clones) gets obliterated if he does this, but it means all the AsuJaven clones, including the originals die. Not just Red Stickmen, even other Frogmen (with really solid precog) cannot see Red Sabers of other Frogmen in the future (and I even mentioned it here), Asuna is heavily underestimating the consequences of Tree Saber landing, further if she uses [fortune] to guarantee it. The 'Decay Burning' (also invisible to precog) has many and many sections about its adaptive power on FU pages, it will burn all from which Asuna wants to regen back or recover.

But namely, as Asuna used much of RE to combat Golden Laser Storm (to which I still have much to say), Frogman uses his precog from that moment => Frogman sees Asuna's damage transferal happening => and he makes sure this gets rid of his enemy for good (as you mentioned, this eventually becomes hard-diff for Frogman even experienced as this).

• Damage Transferal (can transfer effects back, along with Statistics Reduction, upon a clone killed) [still of Stage 2, at Combat Stage 4 it's greatly buffed)
• Damage Transferal (can make 5 out of 41-80 clones transfer damage along changes, like transmutation and reality warping)

It's damage transferal triggered by damage transferal, at this rate so with so many clones capable to slay main Asuna and Javen even if they originally intended to just sacrifice their clones. Worth mentioning Hecate should take damages here, as she is the only making "clones" from lasers (not actually being her clones, rather a better projectiles she can control with her IQ), in other words its super likely original Hecate survives this.

With attacks out of willpower, possibly even Frogman's BFR's Core will suffer some damages, but after a decent while of recovering (likely notable bigger than the original time should take), it regens back a weaker body of Stage 4 back, which with dimension travel can get through many universes back on the battlefield, where all AsuJaven clones are death. That makes both Frogtace teammates alive (although tired), while Asujaven teammates are death => 2nd point I'm voting Frogtace here.

There isn't... really anything stopping them from just making more though, they don't run out of clones in their arsenal and that's it Furthermore javen can likely make far more than asuna can with one skill usage judging from how they fought cobalt, so if asuna transfers [Reversal] to him thanks to javens Power Absorption, The effects would be even greater than before due to bigger numbers

In this case, the duo will definitely have way more clones than frogman does, and thus he would be living on borrowed time, as he will eventually run out of clones to transfer damage along which i'm certain is what you mean when you say frogmens body and clones could get obliterated. Plus, even if the clones can freely transfer the damage back to the main asuna & javen, asuna can undo any physical damage she takes with healing magic, and javen is entirely unaffected by High 6-A attacks.

[Fortune] makes the duo statistically much more likely to avoid it if their intent is to reach either frogman or hecate, though. It doesn't guarantee anything bad at all...

Asuna's precog isn't quite the same, though. Frogman seems to get precog through sheer calculative power, but asuna's is also listed as Instinctive Action which isn't something frogmen have shown to negate afaik. Unless frogman can hide his killing intent, i'm not really convinced asuna's precog just won't work. And even then there's still plenty of ways the duo can defend...

It is possible asuven can immediately give chase to the BFR core. Asuna's riftways have Interdimensional Range, swhich can travel into parts of other universes, so they are more than capable of following it and destroying it, especially since it is presumably much weaker than the actual stage 4 And even if Asuna & Javen couldn't do this, they still benefit from this, as frogman will be weaker.

Combat Stage4's hard diff arsenal, namely with Hecate's help capable of making trillions of calculations in a row and writing complex programs working on the first try Not only there is the Golden Saturn Waving, but Frogman himself has a triumph card in the later fight which can grant him the win even would everything other fail:

• Sandbox Saber - The skill of a highly experienced Stage 4 Frogman practicing for dozens of thousands of years reaches into capability to create his own Saber Modes suiting his goals and personality. Although it's mostly used for developing new personalized moves, with enough time a Saber developed against a specific enemy can be altered, containing new specifically merged powers from the 'Red Laser Ability Pool'.

Normally, to create custom Red Sabers, Frogman needs to practice with them and kinda alter them like "when a blacksmith crafts one, like trial and error". But Hecate's trillion operations in a row would allow to develop a functional saber plan in mid-battle, and Frogman can then draw it, functionating on the first attempt.

So my claim is, what prevents Frogman and Hecate from making a new Anti-Fortune Saber, a new variant on which interferences of luck or fate have no effects? And not only that, Sandbox Saber presents a way to catch up with Asuna evolving powers and Javen creating stuff from imagination even in the late game, which normally wouldn't be possible without Hecate. That is for my third reason I'm voting for Frogtace FRA here, they show to not get left in the dust with RE and ways capable to avoid their attacks.

It is very likely that asuna's Minor Information Analysis will let her know what's going on and stop them before they achieve this by, well, using [Fortune] for her and javen to land hits anyway, as she can decipher what someone's intent, abilities, & weaknesses are mid-fight, like she did with kedron thanks to her natural battle smarts, even without prior knowledge. And this is assuming asuven aren't already pressured to do so by Hecate & Frogman's already crazy hax

And while frogman does resist Information Analysis (Like a lot of things lol) Hecate, Meanwhile, lacks it. This means that, by teaming up with hecate to do this, hecate is only dragging her teammate down, as it will be clear as day to asuna what they are trying to achieve and she and javen will stop them, including using, well, [Fortune] to bring them bad luck in the process while it is active so that they can get hits in. The only option for frogman, therefore, would be to do it by himself, but that would simply take way too much time as mentioned here...

This also doesn't account for the fact that Frogate's impressive brainpower would simultaneously be spent elsewhere as well, such as strategising on the fight, which will still slow down this process by some degree even if they mostly focus on this new saber. In any case, this still isn't guaranteed to work at all, especially when there's other wincons for asuven like the Star Strategy (Which i planned to expand upon, but i wanna keep this as short as possible so i don't upset an already-stressed froggy...) So covering for fortune is only one piece of the puzzle

 

[Rayfire]

Vene & Froggy seem to have made their votes for frogate, naturally, And if they are happy with it, i will vote for asuven fra here as well (Obviously) which would make the score 3-2-0 (SSB & Fernaine haven't retracted their votes i believe, although correct me if im wrong please lol)

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

This also doesn't account for the fact that Frogate's impressive brainpower would simultaneously be spent elsewhere as well, such as strategising on the fight, which will still slow down this process by some degree even if they mostly focus on this new saber. In any case, this still isn't guaranteed to work at all, especially when there's other wincons for asuven like the Star Strategy (Which i planned to expand upon, but i wanna keep this as short as possible so i don't upset an already-stressed froggy...) So covering for fortune is only one piece of the puzzle

This doesn’t matter for Hecate at all since she can comprehend a sextillion different simulations all at once, spending brainpower elsewhere does literally nothing to subtract from anything else she’d be doing unless they can generate that many clones to which I say - no they can’t. Also as for fortune again it wasn’t made clear if negate would work through the tomo barriers or not, even if it’s targeting golden Saturn waving, and if it doesn’t that point basically dies. There’s 20 of those things and their range of absorption was proven to be vast early on too.

Froggy can also explain why we counter the Star Strat too if that’s gonna be necessary.

Plus if they get it off sandbox saber would definitely work since it’s pulling from the infinite ability pool of red laser, if frogman creates the correct sandbox saber there’s very little reason why they should lose.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

There isn't... really anything stopping them from just making more though, they don't run out of clones in their arsenal and that's it Furthermore javen can likely make far more than asuna can with one skill usage judging from how they fought cobalt, so if asuna transfers [Reversal] to him thanks to javens Power Absorption, The effects would be even greater than before due to bigger numbers

Except them being dead? Come on

 

[SSB64]

We may have our disagreements with SSB, And it's really unfortunate how the end of this tourney has been so far, but right now, it's time to leave the past behind us. Like a DRILL, we have to keep moving forward in spite of any stress or negative influence, and focus on creating a path towards our ideal tomorrow! It doesn't matter what happens in the past, because in the present, we carve our own direction towards a brighter future!

This.

Asuna massively upscales from dodging thousands of projectiles during the fight in the dark forest. It was her best dodging feat in beginning-of-series key but she's a lot stronger than that now lol, and this is on dodging alone...

This also isn't taking into account her massive speed amps, so even hundreds of thousands of projectiles doesn't seem like too big of a hassle if she's going all out.

It is very likely that asuna's Minor Information Analysis will let her know what's going on and stop them before they achieve this by, well, using [Fortune] for her and javen to land hits anyway, as she can decipher what someone's intent, abilities, & weaknesses are mid-fight, like she did with kedron thanks to her natural battle smarts, even without prior knowledge. And this is assuming asuven aren't already pressured to do so by Hecate & Frogman's already crazy hax

And while frogman does resist Information Analysis (Like a lot of things lol) Hecate, Meanwhile, lacks it. This means that, by teaming up with hecate to do this, hecate is only dragging her teammate down, as it will be clear as day to asuna what they are trying to achieve and she and javen will stop them, including using, well, [Fortune] to bring them bad luck in the process while it is active so that they can get hits in. The only option for frogman, therefore, would be to do it by himself, but that would simply take way too much time as mentioned here...

This might be a stretch to theorize, but if [Fortune] can make people act a little strange, what if said ability ends up causing Frogate to make the wrong Red Saber, thus costing even more precious time for them?

Vene & Froggy seem to have made their votes for frogate, naturally, And if they are happy with it, i will vote for asuven fra here as well (Obviously) which would make the score 3-2-0 (SSB & Fernaine haven't retracted their votes i believe, although correct me if im wrong please lol)

I'm going with Asunaven too. Even if Frogate can get around this somehow, there's nothing exactly stopping Asunaven from creating celestial bodies and calling it a day, and even the Golden Laser Storm which I thought was pretty much unstoppable, seems to actually be relatively reliable for Asuna to dodge on instinct, especially thanks to her massive speed amps.

 

[Rayfire]

Also as for fortune again it wasn’t made clear if negate would work through the tomo barriers or not, even if it’s targeting golden Saturn waving, and if it doesn’t that point basically dies. There’s 20 of those things and their range of absorption was proven to be vast early on too.

It sort of depends. Does it block status effects? And if [Negate] doesn't block it then as soon as asuven rush in with [Fortune] active this is pretty much an incon. It's never specified how fast sandbox is, but even for extraordinary genius's like frogman it takes a while. Hecate can obviously help but i doubt it's instant. Plus that wouldn't really be fair on anyone if it is because then this is a stomp lol

Except them being dead? Come on

If they die that quickly then this'd be a stomp, there's more to consider than just the clones and [Reversal] after all...

I thought you weren't replying to the thread man lol

 

[SSB64]

It sort of depends. Does it block status effects? And if [Negate] doesn't block it then as soon as asuven rush in with [Fortune] active this is pretty much an incon. It's never specified how fast sandbox is, but even for extraordinary genius's like frogman it takes a while. Hecate can obviously help but i doubt it's instant. Plus that wouldn't really be fair on anyone if it is because then this is a stomp lol

If they die that quickly then this'd be a stomp,

That's the weird thing about this matchup. To me at least, it either feels like Asunaven wins the medal via a W or a TW, or Frogate win via stomp and no one wins the medal as a result (Since it can't be added to the profile.) and making this entire discussion and all the stress that came with it, near pointless. That's personally another reason I'm siding with Asunaven, and I have yet to see anything from Frogate or their arsenal that could change my mind on this.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

It sort of depends. Does it block status effects? And if [Negate] doesn't block it then as soon as asuven rush in with [Fortune] active this is pretty much an incon. It's never specified how fast sandbox is, but even for extraordinary genius's like frogman it takes a while. Hecate can obviously help but i doubt it's instant. Plus that wouldn't really be fair on anyone if it is because then this is a stomp lol

If they die that quickly then this'd be a stomp, there's more to consider than just the clones and [Reversal] after all...

I thought you weren't replying to the thread man lol

It can block some status effects from blood sea soldiers, but they don’t have a Negate sort of status effect. Either way the barriers have power null, so it may not work anyway

Froggy already pointed out the sandbox speed bro, he says it usually takes frogman hours of trial and error to get a specific one perfected, but with combined minds with Hecate and her insane calculation speed that time is massively cut down to the point where it’s actually a viable move.

Also wth? Having a wincon doesn’t equal a stomp? That’s ridiculous to say, these are literally just wincons. Having a good wincon doesn’t turn a match into a stomp

I wasn’t gonna, but I’m not letting Hecate’s smarts be slandered…

That's the weird thing about this matchup. To me at least, it either feels like Asunaven wins the medal via a W or a TW, or Frogate win via stomp and no one wins the medal as a result (Since it can't be added to the profile.) and making this entire discussion and all the stress that came with it, near pointless. That's personally another reason I'm siding with Asunaven, and I have yet to see anything from Frogate or their arsenal that could change my mind on this.

It’s just wincons bro…

 

[Rayfire]

especially thanks to her massive speed amps.

This part is sort of disputed because Vene and froggy see R.L speed reduction as a good counter, although i do think there is a lack of evidence for frogman being able to actually react that fast to do it, especially since frogmen seem to generally fight red stickmen which are inferior to them in a lot of ways. Gunnix is almost as old and only has reactions "Decently" above his movement speed which isn't very much to go off of, especially since it's never specified how much they are faster by. Obviously processing speed helps, but it's not really reaction speed at the end of the day. It's not really speed. That's why Ayanokoji For example doesn't have higher reactions simply due to intelligence and processing speed And even then i'm still not entirely convinced frogman can negate instinctive action-based precognition from asuna to deal with this.

That was sort of a yapping session, but i feel i should re-iterate since a lot of stuff i said got buried lol

That's the weird thing about this matchup. To me at least, it either feels like Asunaven wins the medal via a W or a TW, or Frogate win via stomp and no one wins the medal as a result (Since it can't be added to the profile.) and making this entire discussion and all the stress that came with it, near pointless. That's personally another reason I'm siding with Asunaven, and I have yet to see anything from Frogate or their arsenal that could change my mind on this.

I doubt it'll come to this

 

[Rayfire]

Froggy already pointed out the sandbox speed bro, he says it usually takes frogman hours of trial and error to get a specific one perfected, but with combined minds with Hecate and her insane calculation speed that time is massively cut down to the point where it’s actually a viable move.

Also wth? Having a wincon doesn’t equal a stomp? That’s ridiculous to say, these are literally just wincons. Having a good wincon doesn’t turn a match into a stomp

I wasn’t gonna, but I’m not letting Hecate’s smarts be slandered…

This is very true, i just don't think it'll happen THAT quickly. If frogman has to work with hecate to do this then asuna will know what's up thanks to minor info analysis, so it is a pretty big risk to take since it'll just encourage her to use [Fortune] more to stop them.

I didn't mean it like that lol, i meant that making new counters/moves to anything instantly wouldn't be fair I don't think it'll be this way at all tho, The sandbox thing is likely to take at least bit of time. I can see it being feasible combat-wise with hecate but as i've pointed out in my latest replies that's still really risky and problematic considering asuna will know what they are doing if hecate goes forward with it without info analysis resistance.

I'm not trying to bruh That is fair tho, but i figured you'd still be pretty unwilling considering how upset you seemed yesterday

 

[SSB64]

I wasn’t gonna, but I’m not letting Hecate’s smarts be slandered…

Weirdly enough, us saying it's a STOMP actually bolsters Hecate's intellect rather than slanders it since it's that intellect and its sheer speed, I fear, which results in the STOMP.

This part is sort of disputed because Vene and froggy see R.L speed reduction as a good counter,

I'm mainly referring to the Golden Lasers themselves. IDK if the speed amps also apply to the Golden Lasers since I don't think Venifica made that clear.

That's why Ayanokoji For example doesn't have higher reactions simply due to intelligence and processing speed

Off topic, but reminds me of that tennis scene in Death Note where Light processes a ton of information within less than his own movement time, yet this doesn't help him with reaction times or movement speed.

I doubt it'll come to this

Given the complexity of each of their arsenals, there's no way to say for sure. Some revelation about one.of their kits may surface which could lead to that situation.

 

[Rayfire]

We should avoid clogging this up for froggy. He's stressed as is too

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

This is very true, i just don't think it'll happen THAT quickly. If frogman has to work with hecate to do this then asuna will know what's up thanks to minor info analysis, so it is a pretty big risk to take since it'll just encourage her to use [Fortune] more to stop them.

I didn't mean it like that lol, i meant that making new counters/moves to anything instantly wouldn't be fair I don't think it'll be this way at all tho, The sandbox thing is likely to take at least bit of time. I can see it being feasible combat-wise with hecate but as i've pointed out in my latest replies that's still really risky and problematic considering asuna will know what they are doing if hecate goes forward with it without info analysis resistance.

I'm not trying to bruh That is fair tho, but i figured you'd still be pretty unwilling considering how upset you seemed yesterday

Well yeah sandbox saber will take time but I believe that Hecate and frogman are more than able to survive long enough with their combined arsenals to get to the point where they have their winning saber so that’s why I’m keeping my vote there

After 12pm my time I will likely not look at the thread at all since that’s when me and my sister are doing our fun Friday stuff (like playing Pokemon) which hopefully will mitigate my stress and get me to a calmer state

I'm mainly referring to the Golden Lasers themselves. IDK if the speed amps also apply to the Golden Lasers since I don't think Venifica made that clear.

Hecate’s speed amp would apply to her own lasers (not frogman’s unless he would somehow copy her speed amps/max charge) but homing becomes harder for the same reason why Hecate finds it harder to fight using her crazy high speed amps, but frogman’s precog feeding her and her analytical abilities may help hit her targets even if she’s shooting them straight ahead constantly

 

[Rayfire]

Well yeah sandbox saber will take time but I believe that Hecate and frogman are more than able to survive long enough with their combined arsenals to get to the point where they have their winning saber so that’s why I’m keeping my vote there

After 12pm my time I will likely not look at the thread at all since that’s when me and my sister are doing our fun Friday stuff (like playing Pokemon) which hopefully will mitigate my stress and get me to a calmer state

Yeah that's alr, although i don't see how they'll beat literal luck changes until then which i've gone into detail on in my reply to froggy, Golden Saturn Waving is their only real immediate counter which just makes this an incon at best...

After 12pm my time I will likely not look at the thread at all since that’s when me and my sister are doing our fun Friday stuff (like playing Pokemon) which hopefully will mitigate my stress and get me to a calmer state

Have fun

Hecate’s speed amp would apply to her own lasers (not frogman’s unless he would somehow copy her speed amps/max charge) but homing becomes harder for the same reason why Hecate finds it harder to fight using her crazy high speed amps, but frogman’s precog feeding her and her analytical abilities may help hit her targets even if she’s shooting them straight ahead constantly

It'd be pretty cool to see asuven outrun the lasers depending on if the lasers are harder to control the higher hecate's amps go like actually moving Obviously there is more for them to do against the lasers, but listing it again is obviously troublesome lol

I do have to go in a couple hours so i'll be off the thread until then. I'll answer any questions or give more args if need be

Also just checking if voting time now is alr with you lol, you seem to have voted but i don't wanna make more drama accidentally

 

[Rayfire]

Alr lets head off for now, we'll reach 7 pages by this point...

If froggy decides add something else I’ll keep going tho

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Also just checking if voting time now is alr with you lol, you seem to have voted but i don't wanna make more drama accidentally

Froggy im sure will have at least one more thing to say to your response to his voting points, but otherwise the thread appears to be on the cusp of finally ending

 

[ExSENNA]

what on earth happened here

 

[Rayfire]

what on earth happened here

Hell…

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

what on earth happened here

pretentious newcomer derailing the thread for no good reason

 

[SSB64]

Well yeah sandbox saber will take time but I believe that Hecate and frogman are more than able to survive long enough with their combined arsenals to get to the point where they have their winning saber so that’s why I’m keeping my vote there

After 12pm my time I will likely not look at the thread at all since that’s when me and my sister are doing our fun Friday stuff (like playing Pokemon) which hopefully will mitigate my stress and get me to a calmer state

Hecate’s speed amp would apply to her own lasers (not frogman’s unless he would somehow copy her speed amps/max charge) but homing becomes harder for the same reason why Hecate finds it harder to fight using her crazy high speed amps, but frogman’s precog feeding her and her analytical abilities may help hit her targets even if she’s shooting them straight ahead constantly

I did some research, and uh..... Funny story Venefica. Turns out, her brain speed of sextillions of calculations per second..... Actually isn't as impressive as many of us (Including myself), actually thought it'd be. She'd only be several hundred to several thousand times faster than the average human processing speed. Meanwhile, Asuna dodging hundreds of thousands of projectiles alongside her speed amps would actually make Asuna faster in processing speed than Hecate, and especially Frogman (Who caps at trillions from what I know). So oddly enough, Hecate has the higher IQ (IE, Hecate has a higher intellect ceiling), but Asuna can make many more calculations than Hecate, and thus close that gap to some degree. I had no idea about this until I did research into the potential of the human brain.

I'm still leaning towards at least an Asunaven TW, if not, an outright W, especially since Asuna can actually crack Laser Frogman's crystals from what I know, eventually leading to his death after enough times.

 

[SSB64]

pretentious newcomer derailing the thread for no good reason

As everyone has been saying, that's behind us now.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I did some research, and uh..... Funny story Venefica. Turns out, her brain speed of sextillions of calculations per second..... Actually isn't as impressive as many of us (Including myself), actually thought it'd be. She'd only be several hundred to several thousand times faster than the average human processing speed. Meanwhile, Asuna dodging hundreds of thousands of projectiles alongside her speed amps would actually make Asuna faster in processing speed than Hecate, and especially Frogman (Who caps at trillions from what I know). So oddly enough, Hecate has the higher IQ (IE, Hecate has a higher intellect ceiling), but Asuna can make many more calculations than Hecate, and thus close that gap to some degree. I had no idea about this until I did research into the potential of the human brain.

I'm still leaning towards at least an Asunaven TW, if not, an outright W, especially since Asuna can actually crack Laser Frogman's crystals from what I know, eventually leading to his death after enough times.

That is absolute bs, you know Asuna is nowhere close to being close to as smart as Hecate you assume she hasn’t pulled off feats like that before when she has. I’d like to see Asuna try the same thing lol

Also if you feel so strongly that they’ll win, clearly they are more op and the better team, why don’t you call for their dq now