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Fiamma of the Revisions

I agree with adding the causality manipulation for magic, as long as it's made clear it's limited and simply one of the mechanics of magic like being bades on processing your own life force, so that people don't try to argue magicians can reverse cause/effect or things like that.

I don't see the point of adding more keys to Fiamma. Maybe we can remove the "(With Index's controller)" bit of his Base key and put the controller as optional equipment.

I disagree with him getting High 1-C or Low 2-C overtime. The ony phase we know he can interact with in a limited manner is Heaven, and we don't know how big Heaven is. The obvious "Christian miracles are not the same thing as the miracles used by Lilith and Arisa" was already mentioned above by others. Curtana's 11-D slash is hax, we currently don't treat it as AP and thus nobody can scale their AP to it, otherwise we would have High 1-C Kanzaki and Maiden of Versailles, plus High 1-C anyone that scales to Kanzaki's Yuisen like Knight Leader and Acqua.

Fiamma has no feats for NPI, so I personally disagree with it, as I don't feel that quote is sufficient evidence.

The bits about malice are not literal. Fiamma is talking about how his powers increase in response to people's malice, and that he can use his Holy Right to "purify" the world, aka, wipe out most of humanity with Teslema like he was trying to with his plan.

The Telesma weather thing was a side effect of the golden arms, not something Fiamma actively did himself. It wouldn't surprise me if he could manipulate the weather with Holy Right and just pull out a biblical world-spanning flood, but he hasn't done that kind of thing, as his uses of Holy Right in fights are pretty straightforward overall.
 
I do agree adding Misha and the star as optimal equipment tho

Tho lazy u are wrong about phases, to change the world u dont Need a universe wide phase, tshuci example explain it well "they are like radio wave or infrared, they can steal affect the object for example heating it up" plus he fixed the elements position universe wide
 
Since nothing is being accepted (aside from limited causality hax), should this thread be closed?
 
Well, even if no extra keys, at least his tiers and AP section could be changed to be a combination of the keys i made? I mean something like:

10B, 8C with Index, H6C with Gabriel, H6A with the HR.
 
10B isn't needed since he's never without HR, kinda like how accelerator isn't 10B. Their dura sections cover this. Where does 8-C come from?
 
10B come in play when someone can bypass HR, which happens 2 times in the series, and Terra also has 10B in his profile, and Stand User, which Fiamma is very similar with. 8C because he has PenDex
 
Terra is 9-c because that's his dura, his power isn't a defense. HR is his power and is internal, the arm is just an outward manifestation. Accel's shield gets bypassed x times but it's his defense so it's noted in dura.TLDR: The tier section isn't for durability alone

Index is high 6-C with stronger spells.
 
Fiamma's physical AP doesn't scales to HR (who doesn't even use physical ap) so his body tier (10B) should be added, the same way we do it to Terra, Birdway, Mikoto, etc.
 
Not the point, we are discussing the tiering not AP/Dura. Fiamma' inate power is H6-A which is why it's rated as such. Mikoto is segmented because of all of her abilities powers don't fit in one tier, birdway is 7-A with certain spells. Terra's power is durability bypass which has higher tier applications..etc
 
You should ask LazyHunter and DontTalkDT to comment here.
 
Already asked Lazy and he already commented, i didn't ask DT because he wasn't much active before, but should i ask him now?

Fiamma is rated as H6A because he can dry all the oceans or something like that, but the description of his power says HR doesn't use physical force, and like any character that can destroy something without using physical force, they should have their tier as unknown (don't remember examples rn), so even simply saying H6A is inaccurate, and 10B should be added because all characters that have weapons, magic, summons, etc that aren't the same tier as their body need it in a separate tier.
 
You can ask DontTalkDT, yes. What did LazyHunter think?
 
Asked DT, Lazy was against most things in the OP (with the exception being limited causality.

Also, here is the quote saying he doesn't use physical force.

(He merely swung his right arm lightly. "I do not need destructive force." [...] "If I touch my enemy, it's over, so I don't need to put any effort into destroying them." [...] "I do not need speed." A cold voice cut her off. Forcefully. Exceedingly overwhelming. "If I swing, I hit my enemy, so I don't need to put any effort into hitting them." Kamijou did not know what happened.)

And

(His arm was supposed to be almighty. If he swung it, it would hit, so he had no need for speed. If he hit, the target would be destroyed, so he had no need for destructive power.)
 
Well, Lazy usually has a very good sense of judgement about To Aru.
 
Fiamma's Holy Right has hit people and only knocked them away.The attack didn't effortlessly tear through their bodies or behave like it was negating their Durability, and the conclusion that Touma arrives in the same fight that quote comes from is that Holy Right automatically adjusts its strength so that it can easily defeat Fiamma's opponent, which is why the same casual swings that destroy Vento's large ice magic constructs only knock away a human like Touma instead of simple blowing him to pieces, and this "automatic power output regulation depending on the opponent" is how Holy Right is treated by the story and is even confirmed by Fiamma later.

As if it were fulfilling its natural role, Kamijou's body was knocked away. It was a primitive strike like swinging a wooden rod, but that was why there could be no doubts about it. Pain ran through Kamijou's organs and even his backbone. But it was odd. That strike had shattered that giant anchor and destroyed the ship itself in a single strike, so it should have smashed a human body to pieces.

Perhaps its given role had been automatically selected to emit the perfect amount of power to knock away Kamijou Touma.

Fiamma was not like a Saint that pushed through with power and speed.

Using a battle in an RPG as an example...

What if there was a ridiculous command of "defeat" among the usual commands of "fight", "defend", "magic", and "item".

Most likely, Fiamma would respond in the same way to Kanzaki or Acqua and he would defeat them just the same. It didn't matter if his speed or strength were inferior. His exceedingly overwhelming "power" ignored any actions taken by his opponent and simply crushed them. It was like pushing a giant wall along to flatten a sand hill made by a child.

[...]

"Did you forget what I announced back in the Elizalina Alliance? My right arm responds to the need, matches to the level of trials and tribulations, and uses the most suitable output. Whether it is an optical weapon or whatever else, nothing can stand up to me."

[...]

"Why did you start World War III? You said it was to gather the necessary items from around the world and to make the enemy you must defeat clear. However, it can be explained in a different way. Your power automatically regulates the strength of your arm's power matching it to the level of difficulty of your enemy. In other words, the stronger the enemy that stands before you, the stronger the power you can draw out. …But why did you have to forcibly draw out such great power?"

When Fiamma and the novel are going "he doesn't need speed", "he doesn't need power", they're talking about how Holy Right will automatically adjust its speed and power so that it can defeat the enemy without Fiamma putting any effort, so Fiamma himself doesn't need to actually use speed or power into his attacks, the arm will hit with the power needed to defeat the enemy all on its own, just like it can hit the enemy even if it doesn't physically touch them and thus doesn't need speed.

It's why towards the end of his last encounter with Touma he realizes something is wrong when he finds himself actively swinging the third arm stronger and faster. Because him actively putting any effort on doing so is meaningless when his arm is working correctly.

"Ooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!"

Fiamma yelled and swung his third arm even stronger and faster.

However, he himself realized there was a contradiction in that action. His arm was supposed to be almighty. If he swung it, it would hit, so he had no need for speed. If he hit, the target would be destroyed, so he had no need for destructive power.

And yet Fiamma was now relying on simple arm strength. That was proof that the essence that should reside within his arm had been shaken.

So my opinion continues to be that Holy Right is AP that is automatically adjusted to "easily defeat the enemy" level.
 
@LazyHunter I disagree with this assessment for a couple of reasons. While I'm not trying to change anything on this CRT as I understand your opinion, I'll just post why I think different.

" So my opinion continues to be that Holy Right is AP that is automatically adjusted to "easily defeat the enemy" level." Fiamma's strike regulates its "output" to end its opponent in one strike is how I would word it. "Fiamma's Holy Right has hit people and only knocked them away.The attack didn't effortlessly tear through their bodies or behave like it was negating their Durability" It's been stated that Fiamma can hold back the true function of his ability to merely scale to his threats level of difficulty and then just defeat it, which results in them simply being knocked-out or back like a concussive attack. As Fiamma spoke in a singsong-like way, the third arm growing from his right shoulder slowly moved. If it displayed its true ability, Carissa very well might be blown to smithereens. "So, what are you going to do? Are you going to give up and live on or keep trying and die?" Our opinion of "power" is essentially different which is why I used output, I think it's even in quotes or italics in some of the LN text. This attack is basically RPL -> Reality Warping as its using a specific miracle from Michael's lore and weaponizing it as an offense attack. After all, HR's power is stated as the power to create Christian miracles.
 
Being physical force or not, my original point that the HR and Fiamma have different tiers and thus 10-B should be in the profile.
 
The ap for his magic, not for his body, 2 separate things, 2 separate tiers. Also, 10B is already in the durability and strinking sections, but isn't in the Tier and AP sections.
 
We are talking about tier. He's H6-A for being able to produce AP in the bracket. Look at Accel Vento etc. You are needlessly separating him from his power for some reason?
 
"10B physically, H6A with HR" see? We do it to other characters. Yeah, you are right, there are some characters that we don't do it, but there is any good reason to not add their physical stats to their profiles? We are an indexing wiki, you know.
 
I believe what SC is saying is the tiering section rates whatever his AP is normally in that key. And with one always active power his AP normally can produce H6-A and there is no needed for separations based on application, differing from cases that have to actively employ x to reach that tier. His physical stats are already present in the physical sections of the profile. Hope that helps.

If lazy only accepted lim causality manip than I guess we are done here.
 
Yeah, if Lazy doesn't agree there isn't much more i can do, and DT will just say he agrees with Lazy if he has the time to comment here, so just close this thread. Another one to my list of failed CRTs.
 
Okay. That can probably be applied then.
 
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