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Fate: Regarding use of feats in interludes

Qliphoth_Bacikal

Qliphoth_Bacikal

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Free time is made now. Assuming this somehow gets brought up again and to do this properly, I may as well do the honors of making this into a proper thread.

As most of you people who aren't completely into Fate a lot or are but never played Fate/Grand Order, the mobile game not only has a story mode in it but also has these things that happen in them called Interludes. Just as anyone whose read a LN or WN or even just a normal novel has come upon this at least once, the game features interludes for specific characters that happen at about anytime throughout the games main story. Most of which seems to happen before and after certain Singularities and its assumed that you have said Servants around or not.

Anywho, there was a minor time of topic made regarding the use of using these interludes as feats for the characters on their profiles. Well first, it should be noted that these Interludes are, to my knowledge but I may be wrong in some parts, canon to the story though the characters don't ever mention them or something. But back to the matter here, there was problems that arose when it came to using some that may not be quite consistent for some characters.

Here's one that I'll copy paste from Ramesses the Sun King made the other day as an example:

"I don't think we should use all interlude battles as justification unless you are telling me that Nitocris defeating Amon Ra and 100 sphinxes is consistent. Her fighting Raikou, Serenity, Kiyohime, Lancelot and Tristan was with the help of Mashu, Brave Liz, Robin Hood and Ibaraki so I think that should also be removed."

(Said character for above for anyone to want to know who he's referring to)

Long story short, I assume from the talk the other day that while interludes can be used and all, some may not be applicable or whatever if they happen to be inconsistent/an outlier/or have some circumstances made for them to even fight them. That and some interludes also take place in dreams and unless feats in dreams are counted (I don't have to guess much to say that's a no there), those are counted out.

Any thoughts?
 
It is mostly case by case situation. If it's consistent, then uses it.

Although I'm not sure if Event Story is more Canon than Interlude.
 
Just note that the other day, I DID say a thread was suggested and I offered to make one if no one does.

Anywho in regards to Homu's first part of their comment, basically the whole thing here above. I still DK about using interludes that happen in dreams (Still guessing that's a no there) but everything can be used if its consistent with the characters statistics, yeah?

But anyways, this is a place for us to figure out which is consistent and which is not so...yeah.
 
Aye.

Nitocris is one. I think I saw someone mention normal Lancer Arturia fighting Ozy, Fionn, Gil, and finally Romulus being another? IDK about that one especially as I don't have OG Lancturia. There's also that of Cu Alter's that was released recently. Another? Maybe Chiyo vs Shuten? Chiyo's not on here page wise but her interlude has her fight Shuten due to the latter teasing her a lot but that could be of Shuten just holding back and playing around with her I presume.

IDK anything else off the top of my head here of those but I assume all of them are varying levels of "nah".

I remember one interlude of Marie's first one where she goes and fights the living Nero (the same one we met and fought with throughout Septem) but IDK how much is that being valid.

There's another interlude that was released some time back this year where Suzuka fought Liz and Nero, then fought Shuten and Ibaraki before finally having it end with a fight against Fergus. But like the Marie one before, IDK how much of this is valid.
 
I doubt Lancer Arturia is that strong. I mean I get she's strong but Gilgamesh is literally known as the strongest servant for a reason.
 
Interludes are practically irrelevant to the game, made to boost/wank the Servant involved and they'll barely change anything save for the dialogue and damage numbers. So I think that it's fine if we just ignore them and use the story and events instead for feats.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Interludes are practically irrelevant to the game, made to boost/wank the Servant involved and they'll barely change anything save for the dialogue and damage numbers. So I think that it's fine if we just ignore them and use the story and events instead for feats.
Click to expand...
while that is sometimes the case, it is not always. Some things like the Zhuge Liang interlude even majorly flush out some mechanics for the verse. In fact, a lot of what we know about Psuedo servats come from his Interlude. They also are used for a good but of character development. We also learn some more about the mechanics of character abilities as well
 
Well, I'm pretty sure the Lancer Arturia vs Romulus example is justified due to their spears being explicit equals and having comparable stats.

I'd be fine with ignoring the majority if them if they don't make sense.
 
To add onto what @Iapitus said, EMIYA's interlude also gave some serious lore bombs on the nature of Heroic Spirits, such as the meaning of the Human, Heaven, Earth and Star attributes. These were later spoken of more in-depth during the London chapter and when the Beasts were introduced. So really, Interlude canonicity has a lot of things going for it. I agree that this should be a case-by-case sort of thing, until future character materials can give us more insight.
 
Basically what Iap and Solacis put, yeah.

Feats aside, the interludes DO give lore that expands a lot related to not just FGO but likely the whole franchise as a...well whole. But then again, that isn't really the point of this thread.

Still a good reminder to know what's also in them, we should still focus back on the case of this here discussion. Ofc I'm up for whatever but having case by case + if theyvare consistent or not sounds like a good plan to go with all this.
 
Case by case scenario seems to be the way to go, yes. Then again the dialogue could likely be a good clue for how serious we can take the fights - nothing says Nito may have been given a confidence boost by the acumen of Grand Daddy Sun Bro and it's even likely, but that's just a "maybe" without context to back it up.

Though let's be real, Gil's eyes popped out at Lancerturia and she killed him when she saw the chance. Totally canon
 
I agree with case by case regarding feats. But lore information stuff from them should be used. Because a lot of interludes gives us information on things like hidden nps, NP restrictions and other stuff like Circe being able to brew a potion that can manifest conceptual stuff.
 
Lore information and the like from Interludes can stay for obvious reasons.

Feats from interludes can be case by case, yes.

And just to make a list of what are questionable to use, I'll list out the ones I commented on the other day.

  • Normal Lancturia's Interlude (Fighting Fionn first, then a team of Gil and Ozy, and finally Romulus)
  • Cu Alter's Interlude that was recently released (Fought Semiramis and Robin Hood, gets poisoned by the former but goes on to fight two more team ups of Medb and Karna, and finally Salter and Heracles.)
  • Chiyome's Interlude (Has her fight Shuten and some monsters in simulation training, though I still take that Shuten was just playing around with her and wasn't using her fullpower if the summary I read of it on Reddit is anything to go by)
  • Nitocris' Interlude (Has her fight against Cleo, Iskander, and Ozy + Amon Ra and 100 of the latter's Sphinx's)
I think another one that can be listed for either no use of it or can contested is Sche who has a weird Interlude where she fights against the many bosses or major players throughout all of Guda and Mash's adventures in Part 1. DK where the summary is but I read it once on Reddit there. There's also Suzuka's that has her fight Liz, Nero, Shuten, Ibaraki, and Fergus (along with a bunch of humorous scenes caused by her). Third, I remember I was told that Tama Cat fights Asterios (as in, the same one that we met back in Okeanos) but IDK the full context of that or whether Asterios had fully healed up by that point from Hector's spear.

Note that these are ones that came up from the top of my head and or stuff I have read once/came from here as of late. And to make it clear, the above are ones that, once again, they are either likely to not be used anymore or could be contested. This is for everyone to talk about, and this is ignoring whether they are on the profile or not (yes I am aware Chiyo's not on here yet, she was just someone that also came to mind with the others here).

Again, it should obvious that dream interludes aren't to happen but I assume everyone here knows of it (Lest we start using those like Proto Cu fighting OG Cu, for one).

Everyone else we still haven't listed is pretty broad but I'll try and remember what else is out there if I can.
 
Ah, been a slight min here.

Uhm not sure, but I wouldn't see why not since no one else has shown up for this. IDK if we need more input but I think the point is mostly agreed to do add these feats.

I'm wondering if feats involving fighting Demon Pillars in Interludes count? Since Nito does it and not only that, there's Caster Lily and Arash doing it too. Any thoughts for that one?

Elsewise I think if we're getting rid of questionable interludes, that might affect Servant pages like Romulus seeing as he's involved with why normal Lancturia also has 7-A for, and he's the last opponent fought after Fionn and a team of Gil and Ozy in that same interlude. But that's just what I assume may happen here so idk.
 
Simulations of Demon Pillars might be fine. Because they are weaker IIRC. But might be better to not include them.

Romulus would be fine because he is a top servant above Roman Servants. Lancer Artoria can stay 7-A I think via scaling to regular Artoria and I don't really think her fighting Romulus is an outlier same with beating Fionn.
 
Pretty sure the one Medea Lily fought wasn't a simulation but rather an actual Demon Pillar, meaning hers was the real deal rather than a simulation.

Fair enough. Oh and he probably should have scaling above Caligula maybe considering he (Cali) has Heracles level STR (or A+ strength) so that kinda puts him even higher in 7-A if that helps?

Anywho, I couldn't think of any other interludes for the past couple days due to college so that's all I know off the top of my head. Whatever's been noted above should be plenty as a start, I would say. And that's assuming the changes don't get undone.
 
Then it's probably an outlier.

Don't think he scales above Caligula in strength. Even if he is above him in combat power and stuff.

That's understandable. If we need to discuss other interludes we can do that in the Nasuverse discussion thread I guess. Anyway if no one else does the changes I can do them in a few days.
 
Ditto.

Aye. Just in case, I'll have a couple more admins familiar with Fate to try and come over here to see what they think and to ensure they know what we may be doing later this week or some other time later with these profiles that uses their interludes.
 
I agree with case by case stuff.
 
I have a problem with how the page edit was handled.

All that was agreed to be removed in the thread was Nitocris fighting the Sphinxes and Amon-Ra. Nothing was discussed of her fighting Iskandar or any of the other characters listed.

And by grossly simplifying Nitocris' speed, it makes it a lot vaguer than when it previously listed where the actual speed feats came from (Which most profiles don't do, btw)

Also Merlin's second key being removed was straight up out of nowhere.
 
Melin's Second key was added without a CRT in the first place and had no justification for the stats.

Nitocris does not scale to Arthur or Enkidu. Her original speed justification made no sense. Nitocris' interlude feat of defeating Iskander, Ozy and Cleo is included because QB listed it and it's in the op. Her fighting all those other Servants is with help from Chaldea and is also mentioned in the op and it was brought up before on the Nasuverse discussion board.
 
Yes. Her AP justification needs her interlude feats removed and the event feats are not right because she had help from a bunch of Servants so that needs to be removed. Her scaling to Arthur and Enkidu is also wrong because her agility is just C rank and she isn't portrayed as one of the faster Servant regardless if she is a combat ready Servant, as others like Emiya gets blitzed by people like Cu. Curse Manipulation needs to be added as well as that's one of things she practices the most.

Merlin gets his unknown key removed as we have 0 information and justification as it was added due to a misinterpretation of mats by me while adding mats info to his profile.
 
Just because multiple people fight one person doesn't mean they automatically doesn't scale. We also have long agreed to not care at all about the Ranking System as feats contradict it.
 
In this case it does, we have no details on the fights besides that Nito plus 4 other Servants fight and defeat one person. We can't claim that she fought Top Servants as that's not what actually happened.

Feats don't contradict it and we still use it for scaling as it's very accurate. Nito is much slower than Top class Heroic Spirits like Enkidu made evident by her parameters and that she has no feats that suggest that she can keep up.
 
"In this case it does, we have no details on the fights besides that Nito plus 4 other Servants fight and defeat one person. We can't claim that she fought Top Servants as that's not what actually happened."

She participated in the battles. To just plainly remove the justifications as if she was never even in the fights to begin with is silly and acts like she wasn't there at all.

"Feats don't contradict it and we still use it for scaling as it's very accurate. Nito is much slower than Top class Heroic Spirits like Enkidu made evident by her parameters and that she has no feats that suggest that she can keep up."

If you're going to insist on this then she wouldn't be MHS anyway. Arthur and Enkidu is directly where three speed feats come from, and not listing them just makes her speed seem unreliable. Also, that doesn't even matter anyway when she fights Cleopatra who has A-Rank Agility along with Iskandar who canonically scales to Arturia.

And lol nope, the Rankings aren't accurate. The original Fate/Stay Night rankings were made by Nasu as an afterthought after he wrote the entire novel.

I should also mention that we also have cases like Mecha Eli-chan who has E-Rank Agility but fights characters with A+-Rank Agility. Agility rank really doesn't matter when a majority of Servants are still MHS and Arthur and Enkidu just happen to be its source that most pages don't list.
 
Maybe if it was clarified to be more than an unknown amount of participation this might be added, but since there isn't, I don't see how a note with zero context is considered the same as an actual fight like say Karna vs Siegfried/Arjuna.

No sorry, you have to give more than your unsupported and meaningless assumptions that Rankings don't matter or aren't accurate. Otherwise we'd never have situations like in America where Karna has to face Arjuna due to him being one of the few ally Servants who could match him, the other being Rama, Enkidu matching Gil, as well as in Extella and Extra where a bunch of Servants are considered Top Servants due to their strength.

Agility does matter, especially when we get cases like Cu and Achilles who are considered among the fastest Servants and can explicitly blitz other slower Servants. Nitocris has no real speed feats so scaling her to some of the stronger combative Servants isn't exactly logical.
 
"She participated in the battles. To just plainly remove the justifications as if she was never even in the fights to begin with is silly and acts like she wasn't there at all."

To list all the Servants she fought against with the help of four other Servants without mentioning that she had help is just as silly as that implies she fought on par with them when that's clearly not the case. Plus those feats are vague and we already have more than enough justification with scaling to Medea.

"If you're going to insist on this then she wouldn't be MHS anyway. Arthur and Enkidu is directly where three speed feats come from, and not listing them just makes her speed seem unreliable. Also, that doesn't even matter anyway when she fights Cleopatra who has A-Rank Agility along with Iskandar who canonically scales to Arturia."

Why can't she just be a lower level of MHS? Nitocris is currently scaled fully to the feat which makes her among the fastest Servants. Unless you are telling me that she would blitz Emiya then no that justification doesn't make any sense at all. Plus her fighting Cleo, Iskandar and Ozy is an interlude feat and is filled with PIS, not to mention that she doesn't need to be as fast as Cleo to fight her from range with Magecraft. Also Iskandar only scales to Strength, he is slower as stated in the profile.

"And lol nope, the Rankings aren't accurate. The original Fate/Stay Night rankings were made by Nasu as an afterthought after he wrote the entire novel."

Please give a source for that claim. Heracles has A+ STR and is clearly physically stronger than any other Servant in Stay Night made evident by the fact that he literally one shots Saber with a clean hit. Cu with B rank STR stomps Emiya with his D rank and Saber almost instantly kills Emiya with a clean hit etc. Nasu even has NPs that work entirely based on the concept of these ranks such as God Hand. Regis Top Servant examples also fit.

You can fight people even if you are slower. Mecha Eli might not be as fast as Yan Qing but she doesn't need to as she pretty much overpowered him and can fire her first like rockets that are faster than her. Just cause they are MHS doesn't mean that they fully scale like Nitocris' justification says. Emiya is a combat ready servant that engages in CQC yet he still gets blitzed and destroyed by Cu. Nitocris doesn't have a single speed feat that places her in that range.
 
Busy again. Probably not going to be on here very long after this.

Thinking about it now, I'm guessing the problem with Nitocris is she doesn't have something that says she participated/contributed to the many people she's listed of encountering unlike say, Nightengale or, to a lesser extent, Ediso and Medb where all their feats in the Singularity they were in had them fight alongside a comparable or stronger fighter against a number of them (Edison having had Helena and Karna at his side against Chaldea and their allies which includes Nightengale and Rama, and Medb having Cu Alter who was boosted by the Grail to fight against Mash and the aforementioned two allies).

The way I see it for Nitocris, she could have some of the ones on there if it's noted she participated in the fight or helped in it rather than having it assumed she fight on par with them as Ram noted. Whether or not that happens is up to everyone here but to me, that could work. It works for Edison enough and Medb too as is Nightengale. I don't see why not for Nitocris but I'm not against taking it off either or just shortening it while adding the contribution part.

Merlin, for the last time, is unrelated to this. But his was changed not because of an interlude (IDK if this guy even has one yet or he does but I just forgot or DK), but as what Ram mentioned above. I believe Quetz is the same with her last key but like Merlin, this is unrelated and needs to be properly discussed in another topic.

Another thing is the case with Medea Lily. While her magecraft has allowed her to do things like create a shield to block several NP's like Atalanta's and partipate in a fight against our group with Jason who was transformed into a Demon Pillar, she has interlude feats of fight Jeanne, Astolfo, and a Demon Pillar. Granted she was with Mash but I can't recall how much Mash joined in on it to help Medea Lily out much less against the latter which normally takes groups of Servants to even fight one off or kill it. While the one against Jeanne and Astolfo COULD stay, maybe, IDK so much of the Demon Pillar one since her interlude has her literally summon one rather than fight a simulation of one like Arash had fought in his.

IDK much about speed so far as Attack power but that's how I see it with Nito, and Medea Lily to an extent. I think the rest of the Servants who have interludes that fought certain Servants (Cu Alter fighting off tag team duos of Semiramis and Robin to later Karna and Medb and finally Salter and Hercs, to Chiyome fighting Shuten) isn't on here but I can presume there are reasons why those won't get added, and keep in mind that I'm only going by the summaries of these interludes I found of the two. Suzuka also has an interlude of fighting several Servants as well like Cu Alter, fighting Liz and Nero to Shuten and Ibaraki and finally Fergus by himself.

Where those stand pretty much can go from "Those could probably be used/can be used" to "Those can't at all" in my personal scale of power scaling.

Can't bother to make a TL;DR version outta this but if you have read this @All Make that of what you will.
 
@Ram

To list all the Servants she fought against with the help of four other Servants without mentioning that she had help is just as silly as that implies she fought on par with them when that's clearly not the case. Plus those feats are vague and we already have more than enough justification with scaling to Medea.

Then just rephrase it and don't remove it entirely, my dude. Do you think she literally just stood on the side and watched them fight? No? Then she definitely did SOMETHING to help in the battle.

Why can't she just be a lower level of MHS? Nitocris is currently scaled fully to the feat which makes her among the fastest Servants. Unless you are telling me that she would blitz Emiya then no that justification doesn't make any sense at all. Plus her fighting Cleo, Iskandar and Ozy is an interlude feat and is filled with PIS, not to mention that she doesn't need to be as fast as Cleo to fight her from range with Magecraft. Also Iskandar only scales to Strength, he is slower as stated in the profile.

Enkidu and Arthur are not explicitly fast when compared to other Servants, especially when Arthur only has B-Rank Agility. Not listing them at all makes her speed sound random. I also fail to see how her fighting Iskandar/Cleo/Ozy is PIS, same with how she could somehow be slower than Cleo but still be able to fight her at range.

Please give a source for that claim. Heracles has A+ STR and is clearly physically stronger than any other Servant in Stay Night made evident by the fact that he literally one shots Saber with a clean hit. Cu with B rank STR stomps Emiya with his D rank and Saber almost instantly kills Emiya with a clean hit etc. Nasu even has NPs that work entirely based on the concept of these ranks such as God Hand. Regis Top Servant examples also fit.

There's a bajillion fights in FGO that ignores parameters. Meltlilith having E-Rank Strength but fighting No Name who has C-Rank Strength, Kiyohime having E-Rank Strength fighting Liz who has C-Rank Strength, Medb having E-Rank Strength but fighting Nightingale who has B+-Rank Strength, Wu Zetian having D-Rank Strength but fighting d'Eon who has A-Rank Strength, and Mash having C-Rank Strength but fighting Servants like Saber Alter (A-Rank Strength), Charles Babbage (B++-Rank Strength) and Asterios (A++-Rank Strength). And I'm gonna stop there because there's like a billion of them.

Parameters are not an absolute thing, especially not after FGO.

You can fight people even if you are slower. Mecha Eli might not be as fast as Yan Qing but she doesn't need to as she pretty much overpowered him and can fire her first like rockets that are faster than her. Just cause they are MHS doesn't mean that they fully scale like Nitocris' justification says. Emiya is a combat ready servant that engages in CQC yet he still gets blitzed and destroyed by Cu. Nitocris doesn't have a single speed feat that places her in that range.

E-Rank vs. A+-Rank is a massive disparity and shows how nonsensical treating parameters as absolute under all circumstances is, first of all. The key here is that they are the source, and not having them listed on her page is objectively bad practice as it doesn't properly explain anything.
 
"Then just rephrase it and don't remove it entirely, my dude. Do you think she literally just stood on the side and watched them fight? No? Then she definitely did SOMETHING to help in the battle."

Seemed unnecessary for me at the time to list vague feats like that. We already scaled her to Medea, we don't need list all her fights in canon to justify her rating.

"Enkidu and Arthur are not explicitly fast when compared to other Servants, especially when Arthur only has B-Rank Agility. Not listing them at all makes her speed sound random."

That is completely baseless. Enkidu is a Top tier Servant with A rank Agility that can speed amp himself to twice as fast, he was able to react and block Richard's Excalibur from close range while startled. Arthur can speed amp himself by removing his armor and he kept up with people that had A+ Agility plus he has precog. Why would Nitocris fully scale to his reaction speed or Enkidu's combat speed?

"I also fail to see how her fighting Iskandar/Cleo/Ozy is PIS, same with how she could somehow be slower than Cleo but still be able to fight her at range."

Let's see how about the fact that Iskandar has advantages against Anti-Army Nps which Nito has or the fact that Iskandar has a Chariot that can one shot Servants without doing the True Name release. A single light beam from Ozy's Mesketet can one shot Servants like Berserker Jekyll who have B+ Endurance and he can spam that. How is her beating both of them not PIS? Especially when Iskandar was supposedly "serious". She doesn't need to be as fast as Cleo to fight her at range, she just needs good enough reaction speed and attack speed from spells.

"There's a bajillion fights in FGO that ignores parameters. Meltlilith having E-Rank Strength but fighting No Name who has C-Rank Strength, Kiyohime having E-Rank Strength fighting Liz who has C-Rank Strength, Medb having E-Rank Strength but fighting Nightingale who has B+-Rank Strength, Wu Zetian having D-Rank Strength but fighting d'Eon who has A-Rank Strength, and Mash having C-Rank Strength but fighting Servants like Saber Alter (A-Rank Strength), Charles Babbage (B++-Rank Strength) and Asterios (A++-Rank Strength). And I'm gonna stop there because there's like a billion of them."

None of them prove that ranks aren't accurate. You seem to be overestimating the difference between each rank. Saber and even Kojirou can fight Herc without getting stomped instantly, but he can still one shot them with a clean hit.

Melt doesn't just physically fight people, her Crime Ballet lets her do energy attacks as well. Sadistic Constitution amps her power as well. Medb fought her with her Chariot and Grail summoning stuff. Kiyo uses fire balls. Wu Zetian doesn't really clash with people in CQC either. Mashu has the fighting skills of Galahad and a bunch of defensive abilities, ofc she is able to fight people with A rank strength especially when the gap isn't that big. Asterios A++ is the same as A rank if the ++ modifiers aren't active. Also canonically Chaldea uses your Servants that you own so for some of them she might not even have fought them alone.

"E-Rank vs. A+-Rank is a massive disparity and shows how nonsensical treating parameters as absolute under all circumstances is, first of all. The key here is that they are the source, and not having them listed on her page is objectively bad practice as it doesn't properly explain anything."

Agility includes your speed, reactions and agility. So even if Yan Qing has A+ the speed of his attack might not be 5-10 times faster. E to A is a five times difference based on Nasu numbers but Mecha Eli has attacks like her rocket fists and laser beams which has nothing to do with her agility rank. If that's the case then you might want to see the other Servant profiles with justifications like "should be comparable to other servants". If it needs to be listed I would be fine with it if it's actually explained that they are faster than her and that she doesn't fully scale.
 
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