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I'm unsure then. If there isn't solid confirmation then should a "Likely" or "Possibly" rating be used instead?
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Fate - 9D Mooncell (Continuation of the closed CRT)
- Thread starter 1Nairove
- Start date
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- Tags
- fate fate extra mooncell nasuverse
- Status
Maxeez
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I think it would be yes, we have been also proposing this earlier and I think it’d be fine. It’s not that big of an upgrade anyways since it only affects BB’s higher dimensional perspective.
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If we accpet the core as 9D it's the whole 1-C scalling that is 9D too tho.
Maxeez
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isn’t the 8D scaling coming from the space within the MoonCell rather than the core specifically ?
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All the scaling come bcz BB merge with the core in first
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- Thread starter
- #166
There is no direct argument such as "higher dimensional from the core mooncell" and combining the given arguments to such a conclusion that nasu has followed such a path in most scales, Rani's saying high-dimensional for the core after mentioning the mooncell, and another argument to support it is that the barrier is for the core. I believe the inaccessibility would make it adequate for the 9D (possibly 9D at least)
Maxeez
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aight
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You should tag @Paul_Frank and @CrimsonStarFallen as well.
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- Thread starter
- #171
Paul expressed his opinion crimson also said he was neutral
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Aight.
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Yes. We all band together whenever a Fate thread is started and we call it a movie night. Great perk of the job.
Jokes aside, I'm looking through the thread right now, and I should be able to offer a take on this. Gimme a bit to evaluate all the evidence and examine the discussion.
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So, unfortunately, I have to admit that the fundamental premise behind this thread is flawed.
Let's start with 8-D. There is technically some room for doubt as to the legitimacy of 8-D from what is provided, but I'll put my faith in the idea that this is just due to it being a simplified explanation - I trust that the previous discussions into this topic were thorough, and that 8-D is therefore entirely valid.
The argument for 9-D is based on the initial knowledge that the Mooncell is 8-D, with linked statements referring to the core as "higher dimensional", with the conclusion being that the core of the Mooncell is higher dimensional than the rest of the Mooncell and is therefore at least 9-D. However, there is a key issue with the sources used to suggest 9-D, an issue that has been brought up multiple times by several people already and never properly explained each time it's been brought up. Namely, it's never stated in any provided source what the Core is "higher dimensional" in comparison to.
To elaborate, here are the quotes in the sources used to suggest the Core of the Mooncell is 9-D:
"The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the core is a higher-dimensional existence."
"This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light."
"The light used as the memory medium has been jumbled together in a higher dimension."
"BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective."
All of these quotes fundamentally have the same problem. What is the Core "higher dimensional" relative to? The premise this thread is built upon is that the Core is 9-D because it is "higher dimensional" than the Moon Cell. But that's never stated in any of the sources - the sources just say "higher dimensional", and don't specify what it's higher dimensional compared to. It's a large inference, and it's not clear what the basis for the inference is. Furthermore, the fourth source listed above doesn't even appear to be talking about the Core in the first place; it's just says the Moon Cell is higher dimensional, which we already know to be true. If you can understand that the Moon Cell itself is referred to as "higher dimensional" by these characters, then referring to the Core of the Moon Cell as "higher dimensional" doesn't mean anything in particular.
The premise "The core of the Moon Cell is higher dimensional than the rest of the Moon Cell" is the cornerstone of this thread, yet it's decidedly unfounded. Ergo, the conclusion does not have enough basis to pass on the profiles.
Now, this does not mean the whole thread is dead in the water - the problem is that the sources are vague, but they don't outright contradict the premises being put forth. The issue is that none of the sources are clear on the relative subject (i.e.: "higher dimensional" could be referring to anything from "higher dimensional than the Moon Cell" to "higher dimensional than the character speaking"), but since these passages are translated from Japanese to English, it's possible that this was a translation defect rather than a piece of information that didn't exist in the passages. If you can find the original text these passages were based on, and we got someone fluent in Japanese to translate, we might get more clarity on this that would help decide the thread one way or the other.
As for the thread in its current state, however, the evidence is simply not enough.
Let's start with 8-D. There is technically some room for doubt as to the legitimacy of 8-D from what is provided, but I'll put my faith in the idea that this is just due to it being a simplified explanation - I trust that the previous discussions into this topic were thorough, and that 8-D is therefore entirely valid.
The argument for 9-D is based on the initial knowledge that the Mooncell is 8-D, with linked statements referring to the core as "higher dimensional", with the conclusion being that the core of the Mooncell is higher dimensional than the rest of the Mooncell and is therefore at least 9-D. However, there is a key issue with the sources used to suggest 9-D, an issue that has been brought up multiple times by several people already and never properly explained each time it's been brought up. Namely, it's never stated in any provided source what the Core is "higher dimensional" in comparison to.
To elaborate, here are the quotes in the sources used to suggest the Core of the Mooncell is 9-D:
"The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the core is a higher-dimensional existence."
"This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light."
"The light used as the memory medium has been jumbled together in a higher dimension."
"BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective."
All of these quotes fundamentally have the same problem. What is the Core "higher dimensional" relative to? The premise this thread is built upon is that the Core is 9-D because it is "higher dimensional" than the Moon Cell. But that's never stated in any of the sources - the sources just say "higher dimensional", and don't specify what it's higher dimensional compared to. It's a large inference, and it's not clear what the basis for the inference is. Furthermore, the fourth source listed above doesn't even appear to be talking about the Core in the first place; it's just says the Moon Cell is higher dimensional, which we already know to be true. If you can understand that the Moon Cell itself is referred to as "higher dimensional" by these characters, then referring to the Core of the Moon Cell as "higher dimensional" doesn't mean anything in particular.
The premise "The core of the Moon Cell is higher dimensional than the rest of the Moon Cell" is the cornerstone of this thread, yet it's decidedly unfounded. Ergo, the conclusion does not have enough basis to pass on the profiles.
Now, this does not mean the whole thread is dead in the water - the problem is that the sources are vague, but they don't outright contradict the premises being put forth. The issue is that none of the sources are clear on the relative subject (i.e.: "higher dimensional" could be referring to anything from "higher dimensional than the Moon Cell" to "higher dimensional than the character speaking"), but since these passages are translated from Japanese to English, it's possible that this was a translation defect rather than a piece of information that didn't exist in the passages. If you can find the original text these passages were based on, and we got someone fluent in Japanese to translate, we might get more clarity on this that would help decide the thread one way or the other.
As for the thread in its current state, however, the evidence is simply not enough.
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So it will stay 8-D?
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bruh let the thread finish first
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If the original text the quotes were based on cannot be produced, then most likely yes - the evidence provided is not enough to suggest 9-D.
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Alright then I disagree with OP 9-D mooncell because of @DarkGrath’s reasoning
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- Thread starter
- #179
Thank you for your comment, I will write a more detailed and explanatory article for you.
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No worries! Take your time. I'll read whatever you have to say.
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- #181
First of all, my point of view on the "higher dimensional compared to what" problem is that the Core is already the main building block that governs the entire mooncell, and 8D can be taken as it indirectly creates the barrier that cuts through the 8 dimensions (the part the site mentions and confirms) but what is the core higher dimensional than? maybe if you just ask him if he can be higher dimensional, my opinion against that would be no.
the reason is:
In Rani's speech, he initially made a speech about Mooncell and after this speech he referred to the high dimensional core, you can ask here "it opens to the same path, so only the core is high dimensional", but at first he mentioned mooncell and then said that the core is high dimensional as a support context. It can be used and the barrier is inaccessible to the kernel, and it can be used in the same support context that Kinaku Nasu does not directly say to you while performing a feat in one of his works, "X structure is in Y dimension" and it is the same for this 8-dimensional barrier, so what we need to do here is what Kinaku wrote and described if I'm wrong in what I said we should look again at Rani's speech I mentioned and if you think I'm being silly I would be happy if you could describe it in a way that proves it and logically (not like the MMA fighters example written on the subject)
(NOTE: the fact that the kernel is inaccessible to the barrier can be used as a support context)
And there may also be a context in the higher-dimensional perspective that the BB obtains after capturing the nucleus, and here's how it works,
(1)bb could describe a higher dimensional wall not only that she could interact with it with her imaginary number space manipulation
(2)its important where she was at its where the higher dimensions view the lower dimensions as flatscrolls d
(3)even with the 8D power as she broke the wall and possibly perception because she describes the wall
(4) her gaining higher dimensional senses scan after reaching the core and becoming one with her implies she didn't have them before
(5) but she did as she describes the wall and has enough power to interact with
C it meaning she atleast had allat 8D when reaching the core she gained a even higher perspective (9D) additional evidence is them calling it a higher dimension existence
I don't know if I can give an extra boost to what I said because there are 2 arguments and 2 sides may make sense and so at least "possibly 9D" will be enough for me
Thank you again for your opinion
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This is entirely false. The context for that Rani quote is that Hakuno asks
Rani then replies
Her entire quote is just saying that the mooncell does not want to deviate from being an impartial observer, she notes that the core is a higher dimensional existence and because of that, it knows how humanity will end. This is not saying it's higher than the mooncell, just that it's higher dimensional period, because as we were told by Rin, a higher dimensional entity will see the entirety of the timeline at once as flat, from a higher perspective.
All Rani is telling us is that since the recording medium in the core is higher d, it has this perspective, and thus can see the end result for the world.
This assumption comes from nowhere, considering the moment the barrier is broken, BB reaches the core that you're proposing is inaccessible to the barrier, the wall is all that protected the core
This isn't entirely true no, he does in fact, just do that sometimes
As I said above, this would be the case if it's true, but it's sorta just being assumed despite evidence against that fact
I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case. In fact it's noted that the wall is something she lacks the ability to break through even with infinite time. She only gets past it using INS's properties and a bunch of other exploits including the fact that her future self had reached the core, making it an immutable fact which helps her reach it in the past, this does not mean she had 8d power before reaching it, her having 8d power or an 8d perspective is sorta shown to be not true, with the whole "she couldn't do it with infinite time" the fact she only gains the higher d perspective over time after reaching the core, etc
In other words, CCC only happens because BB is already the Mooncell, at that point, the specifics of how it's done doesn't matter, because she's already become the core, meaning even if she hypothetically did nothing at all, she'd still become the core
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Thank you for your time and participation. I also thought as such. We'll have to wait and see if the original Japanese says anything different.
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- #186
If I'm not mistaken, the "a higher" part in English means higher, so if I'm not wrong, the word "more" here may be referring to 9D, where the kernel is higher dimensional (with the contexts I have given)
if I didn't make a translation error, it is 9D with contexts because when looking at the word, the word "a higher dimensional" was used for the core after the word "Mooncel is the eye of God". high can be said to refer to the previous sentence (or I'm schizophrenic now lol, do you think that makes sense?)
I may not be able to explain what I mean because my english is terrible, if you don't understand I can say it again
@DarkGrath @Paul_Frank
if I didn't make a translation error, it is 9D with contexts because when looking at the word, the word "a higher dimensional" was used for the core after the word "Mooncel is the eye of God". high can be said to refer to the previous sentence (or I'm schizophrenic now lol, do you think that makes sense?)
I may not be able to explain what I mean because my english is terrible, if you don't understand I can say it again
@DarkGrath @Paul_Frank
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To include the full context of that statement, what does the whole conversation paragraph look like?
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- Thread starter
- #189
here is the long text of the panels I present
Entry 143: Why we can’t win
[In the student council room, Rin and Rani are standing around in different corners. I talk to Rin first.] Rin :: …you need me for something? As you can see, I’m not in the mood to talk…
tsukinoura.wordpress.com
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Based on the full context, I have to disagree with 9-D.here is the long text of the panels I present
Entry 143: Why we can’t win
[In the student council room, Rin and Rani are standing around in different corners. I talk to Rin first.] Rin :: …you need me for something? As you can see, I’m not in the mood to talk…
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I'm not very interested in this crt anymore, but isn't the context sufficient for 9-D?
(I don't know if this has been talked about before now but,)
Isn't Moon Cell directly mentioned before this higher dimensional statement:? so I think "a higher dimensional" statement should be enough for this.
but if it's not going to be accepted, I guess it's not a problem for me.
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- #192
I don't understand exactly what you are rejecting. When I translate the Japanese of the panel, the same thing I said comes out. What exactly is on your mind?
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It lines up with what @Paul_Frank said earlier. Nothing from Rani's full conversation makes the comparison of the dimensionality you are proposing.
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what is it exactly? because i can see logic errors in what paul said
"This is entirely false. The context for that Rani quote is that Hakuno asks"
First of all, I think that I am still not able to express myself here and that the evidence I have given is in different interpretations so it is a confusion, so I want to say why the word high dimensional here is a 9D reference instead of 8D
As I mentioned in this structure, the word "a higher", that is, the word "a higher", which is used in the meaning of higher after talking about mooncell, refers to the previous expression, that is, after saying that the 8D mooncell is the eye of God, the word "higher dimension" for the core is "a higher dimensional". It is the same in this Japanese translation as "existence"
"In truth, it may have been to prevent cases like the present one from occurring. The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end" this sentence is the long part of the panel I presented, we see the part mentioned in the sentence and we see that the photon-based recording medium in the kernel is referred to as "a higher dimensional existence", it is the same as the original part of the panel and the Japanese translation is the same as the English one, the thing here actually doesn't mean anything by itself. , so yes there can be a reference to 8D from here but as we examine the sentence structure we can see that there is a context for 9D and we can add extra context to it, but for now let's think of it as 8D
Entry 143: Why we can’t win
[In the student council room, Rin and Rani are standing around in different corners. I talk to Rin first.] Rin :: …you need me for something? As you can see, I’m not in the mood to talk…
tsukinoura.wordpress.com
An extra context for Rani's speech that I just mentioned is that BB gains a high-dimensional perspective after crossing the barrier and reaching the core, of course, this doesn't make any sense in a word, but when we look deeply, we get the following result
primarily the core is an inaccessible point for the barrier
It would be absurd to think that BB's high-dimensional perspective is for 8D because the plot goes like this
(1)bb could describe a higher dimensional wall not only that she could interact with it with her imaginary number space manipulation
(2)its important where she was at its where the higher dimensions view the lower dimensions as flatscrolls d
(3)even with the 8D power as she broke the wall and possibly perception because she describes the wall
(4) her gaining higher dimensional senses scan after reaching the core and becoming one with her implies she didn't have them before
(5) but she did as she describes the wall and has enough power to interact with
C it meaning she atleast had allat 8D when reaching the core she gained a even higher perspective (9D) additional evidence is them calling it a higher dimension existence
that is, the perspective obtained by BB is not actually the 8D barrier, but a higher dimensional perspective after the core that even the barrier cannot reach, so this may be a context for 9D
I don't think there's much refutation in the evidence that paul said in the lore because he actually said more "no it's not like that" to the places you wanted to highlight and talked about the endless possibilities of extra lore still paul is knowledgeable but I don't think there is much refutation of what he said about it
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Yes the mooncell is the eyes of god specifically because of the recording medium of the core. That's what the sentence is explaining. This is supported by the fact that once BB reaches the core, they say it switched from the eyes of god to the brain of god, this entire sentence is just in reference to the core from start to finish. It's not like "the mooncell is the eyes of god and then the core is just this separate transcendent thing from that"
You keep saying this but you're just not reading the quote right. They're not saying the core is inaccessible to the barrier, they're saying the barrier is inaccessible to them (impossible to reach), and said barrier blocks the core off from them.Entry 143: Why we can’t win
[In the student council room, Rin and Rani are standing around in different corners. I talk to Rin first.] Rin :: …you need me for something? As you can see, I’m not in the mood to talk…
An extra context for Rani's speech that I just mentioned is that BB gains a high-dimensional perspective after crossing the barrier and reaching the core, of course, this doesn't make any sense in a word, but when we look deeply, we get the following result
primarily the core is an inaccessible point for the barrier
This is consistent with the fact that your interpretation would mean that the core is so far above the wall that its final defense is literally nonexistent in comparison to it, that is the worst final defense ever.
So no, the core isn't inaccessible to the barrier, its inaccessible because the barrier (the barrier stops us from reaching it, and we can't reach the barrier)
Ignoring the part about the barrier being unable to reach it because I addressed this incorrect reading above, to quote myself from earlier, no, BB was not as strong as the wall. We know this very, very explicitly.
If she was, the wall wouldn't be so much stronger than her that infinite time couldn't break through, she wouldn't need the Labyrinth and everything else she used to avoid the mooncell, etc.
We straight up know she didn't have a higher dimensional perspective at all prior. So the assumption that her getting to the core and getting a higher d perspective means she got an even higher one than 8d falls apart there as well. Finally, further evidence that the core isn't infinitely superior to the wall, is the fact that exactly .00001 seconds after BB gets through the wall, she consumes the core. (They then go on to explain its actually been predetermined so that short time ago was actually 64 days, but the fact she can reach and engulf it right after getting through the wall shows that there's no way the core is infinitely above the wall)
I posted the entire quotes of the scenes rip, can't get much more evidence than that
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Since to begin with the reasoning is shaky to the best (as most of those that have agreed with the premise have stated), the most knowledgeable members either disagree or are somewhat neutral, and various staff also seem to disagree with the premise, shouldn't the thread be closed?
Also, I'm sure there are better ways to upgrade the verse that don't rely in uncertain reasoning, which people apparently will post in a future (at least based in the comments in the general thread) so it should be better to wait until then instead of continue pushing for an upgrade like this.
Also, I'm sure there are better ways to upgrade the verse that don't rely in uncertain reasoning, which people apparently will post in a future (at least based in the comments in the general thread) so it should be better to wait until then instead of continue pushing for an upgrade like this.
Tdjwo
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Exactly what I thought as well. I'm fine with upgrading the moon cell and all but since there's going to be a big CRT for the verse soon anyways, this could have waited a bit.
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You may be right
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what about the logical argument for the 9D for you? or would it be helpful to contact the author and ask what actually happened on this panel?
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Glad you agree, now I can make a thread to upgrade a bit the verse and improve some pages (maybe not tomorrow since I will be busy but at some point of this week I want to post a crt addressing the calc and update some pages like Sakura or Rin).
Go directly with authors (or related individuals) to ask things like this isn't allowed in the wiki.
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