Fairy Tail: Zeref and Mavis CRT

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I disagree. There is no real basis for mid-godly and I’m not even sure if it really fits low-godly since it’s like a reverse of the definition. It wasn’t even her real body.

There are too many unknowns here to give these guys these levels of regen based off the information presented.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm going to propose this question to the site as a whole, we may just not have a rating that applies to this type of regen, so maybe we can have one implemented

Point is this CRT can't be settled until we know what type of regen this applies to

 

[SamanPatou]

Do body and soul need to regenerate after being destroyed at the same time to count as regeneration?
I mean, we already established that they can regenerate their soul, we just need to establish if they can totally regenerate the body in its entirety.
Even if the two (body and soul) are destroyed in different instances, it doesn't matter, they are still able to regenerate both.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Put me down for Mid Godly. As was pointed out, Zeref has never been stated or shown to have resistance to EE and the sole reason it is on his profile is because Zeref knows of multiple forms of EE and can even perform one himself but still can’t kill himself so it was attributed to resistance. This CRT however gives us plenty of evidence as to Zeref having Godly regen for both his body and soul (the latter scaling to Mavis) so it makes little sense to give him an entirely new ability that isn’t stated/shown when his current power set already covers what that ability does.

 

[LordGinSama]

Zeref is quite literally resistant to Conceptual Existence Erasure. It's even on his profile, it doesn't matter if it's a "possible." Or not since there's ample enough evidence to say that he is.




Secondly, this is totally inconsistent with what's actually portrayed in the manga. Nowhere ever in the manga is it EVER shown that Zeref and Mavis have this level of regeneration. (With the former literally needing fairy Heart in order to regenerate from vaporization.)


Hell I wouldn't even classify this as a standard type of regeneration, since they obviously haven't shown the ability to reconstruct their bodies (physical.) on that level, and their previous regeneration falls way, way behind than what's being argued. Plus this honestly strikes me as a type 8 immortality that's reliant on the soul.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Zeref isn’t resistant at all and it is not said in the setting at all. I already explained why the resistance is on the profile and it has absolutely nothing to do with actually being resistant to conceptual EE but that he said Memento Mori wouldn’t succeed. Before we didn’t have feats of godly regen and his best feat was apparently defending from beheading but now we have Mavis getting her soul erased and coming back just fine.

Nothing says Zeref needed FH to regen from Natsu’s attack. That scene was just him flexing his newly acquired god like power on his brother. Even after Natsu beats him and he has a few burns, he is shook that such damage isn’t being healed (makes sense when we know he can come back from having no head).

They clearly don‘t resist soul erasure since we see it happen on panel so it can’t be Type 8 on the soul. Regening their soul and surviving EE comes from their immortality so it’s rather odd that it would only give their body resistance to EE and nothing else (which isn’t even supported by the setting). You can argue that only the body having resistance is a possibility but it’s so obtuse that it doesn’t even need to be brought up as an argument against mid-godly.

 

[LordGinSama]

As far as I'm concerned you telling me something that's your own personal interpretation isn't sufficient evidence. The Resistance is quite literally listed on his page, and was accepted as a resistance otherwise it wouldn't have been added in the first place.




Secondly, it's up to you to prove a postive, proof of Zeref or Mavis ever regenerating from complete destruction of their pshycial vessels would be nice but that doesn't exist. And said regeneration did indeed come from FH, it was done with his time rewind powers. If he had regeneration on this level normally then his personal time rewind would be useless, not only that but that second part is a blatant lie Anon and we both know that. "I'll be perfectly fine" and "being shocked that the damage isn't healing." so that's means you either meant the first fight, or alternatively your attempting to spread blatant misinformation. (Even in the first fight Zeref healed afterwards so.)



Not arguing about them being resistant or not, I'm talking about the proposed regeneration upgrade. It's never been shown that Mavis and Zeref can regenerate their pshycial bodies from complete destruction so trying to scale this to their typical regeneration is a massive no go. Furthermore this isn't Mid-Godly, it's the reverse of Low-Godly.




And finally does anyone even have sufficient evidence of Fairy Glitter being able to "erase" as far as I'm aware Fairy Glitter isn't Erasure. It seems a bit dishonest to say "complete erasure" when at best going by the visuals and what Fairy Glitter does, it would be vaporization and not Erasure like Aizen regenerating from Ichigo's Mugetsu / soul destruction attack.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What interpretation? That is the reasoning for why he has resistance to EE. There is nothing in FT that says anything about Zeref resisting EE. This CRT is bringing up evidence that wasn’t mentioned before which changes the context of Zeref being able to survive EE. If you want to argue he is resistant, go get scans saying he is.

Literally not what I said. I argued that nothing says Zeref couldn’t regen from Natsu’s first attack that vaped him and nothing does. The only thing you have brought up his him flexing his new magic on Natsu. On my end, I have Mavis (with the same immortality) not being resistant to erasure and regening from it so why would Zeref differ?

Imagine accusing me of lying and then posting the exact page that backs me up. Read the two panels right before him saying he will be fine. Zeref said he couldn’t move despite having a few burns and . The dude had his head cut off before but he still says nothing stopped him being able to move in the past.

They don’t need to show it if they multiple instances of EE being dismissed as a way to kill them, Zeref being suicidal and knows self targeting EE, Mavis has Glitter which erases the soul and still thinks she can’t beat Zeref etc.

Mavis said her soul needed to be erased ....... Cana proceeded to do just that ........ with Fairy Glitter. The scans are linked above in the OP. FG hasn‘t even hit anyone before this. It failed against Bluenote, it was used on the MPF, she spammed it on Mavis’ soul, and she didn’t finish casting it on Gray in 100YQ. I don’t know what other evidence you need when the second smartest person in the verse said this was the case and then it happened.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@LordGinSama

We are never shown the upper limits of Zeref and Mavis’s regeneration, there’s nothing within the manga itself that contradicts the possibility of them having this level of regen, however as I said, we don’t have a regen level that applies to this yet, hence why I asked a a bunch of staff in a separate thread, however you haven’t actually disproven why they wouldn’t have this level of regen despite us showing how Mavis could regenerate from the complete destruction of her soul

 

[LordGinSama]

1: I don't need to make a CRT of any sorts, a CRT regarding his Resistance was already made when it got added into his profile. Also don't give me that "nowhere in FT is this stated." bullshit. You guys were the ones who added the resistance, and you in particular were every Adamantine about the addition of his EE resistance. It's on the page, and it's been accepted, therefore if anyone makes a CRT it should be you.



2: Because as I said already, Zeref already have resistance to EE on a conceptual level. (Continue to argue, idc the Resistance is on his profile and therefore it's legitimate till anyone makes the removal thread.) and no, once again this type of logic doesn't work. "There's nothing to prove Zeref can regenerate from vaporization" expect for the ******* facts that you'd need to one, prove that Base Zeref can regenerate from being vaporized on scans, secondly you need to stop this form of argument because it isn't an actual argument. There's no proof given, hence why you can't say "but there isn't proof he CAN'T" because that's not a argument.




3: No, the way you literally worded it made it seem like Natsu negged his regeneration whenever he cleary didn't. There is no statement about his regeneration slowing nor stopping, he made a blanket statement about this never had happen to him. And yeah, his regeneration isn't instantaneous, I.E he isn't healing as soon as he gets the damage done to him, obviously takes a few seconds. And it backs up your argument in no given way.



And no, Fairy Glitter is never stated to erase, and Mavis saying that she needs to be "erasesd" is a extremely common trope in fiction just to say destroyed.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama

We are never shown the upper limits of Zeref and Mavis’s regeneration, there’s nothing within the manga itself that contradicts the possibility of them having this level of regen, however as I said, we don’t have a regen level that applies to this yet, hence why I asked a a bunch of staff in a separate thread, however you haven’t actually disproven why they wouldn’t have this level of regen despite us showing how Mavis could regenerate from the complete destruction of her soul

Read above, and the level is fair enough. I suppose you should settle that and come back to this later?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I also want to point out that Natsu really should lose his Regen Negation, yeah, he left Zeref in a crippled state, which he said has never happened before, meaning he slowed his regen, but I would just chalk that up to his Power Null once again cause as we know, Zeref’s Immortality is a form of magic

 

[Zackra1799]

The reason for the EE resistance CRT was because we had nothing else to go on other than Resistance. This is completely different now given we have a Godly Regen feat from Mavis. If we assume that his regen only works for the Soul it completely messes up with his resistance for one thing. Zeref does in fact know that Lost Aspect erases the users Existence(Body and Mind) This completely failed to kill Zeref based on multiple statements from Zeref himself in the link I left near the top of the thread. That form of EE doesn't even erase the soul yet it still failed to kill him, so that clearly doesn't work. Then there's Momento Mori which by Zeref's own account would also fail to kill him. Which Erases on a conceptual level which is much more than just the soul. Then there's Genesis Zero which is EE on the Mind, Soul, and Body, so does Zeref resist only physical and Mental EE but can just Regenerate his Soul? That just doesn't make sense from both a scaling and writing perspective. The Only Soul Regen argument just falls apart once you take a look at the statements with that feat in mind.

 

[Ionliosite]

I still hold that we really can't do anything until we figure what kind of regen this is, because it blatantly isn't Mid-Godly, and it's actually the inverse of what Low-Godly is, so we don't have a regen level for "heals after soul destruction while body is intact".

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The main idea I am getting from Staff is that we just don't give a specific type of regen to the explanation within the profile, we don't name it anything and just explain everything the regeneration can do, which while disappointing, isn't that big of a deal, I mean yeah slapping "Low-Godly" or "Mid-Godly" would be awesome and it sounds great, but we don't need the name to clarify what the regeneration is and can do

 

[senseikeleon]

Ok so the regeneration part is on hold for now until staff figure out what to do

But do we still need to talk about Zeref removing Mavis soul or what?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Also what does everyone think about removing Natsu's Regen Negation?

 

[senseikeleon]

I’m fine with removing it

 

[Ionliosite]

Sure, do it if you think that makes sense.

 

[senseikeleon]

Ok so I just wanted to mention this real quick regarding Franmalth finding Hades soul despite Zeref’s curse ripping out Mavis soul



So we know Franmalth found Hades soul Seven years prior to X791 which would be X784 and we know he only found hades soul after Hades was killed by Zeref which happened on December 16th X784

https://***********.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-chapter-251-page-19.html

And if Franmalth found hades soul after his death in X784 then he could only have found his soul within 15 days at the latest so the fact that human souls can remain in the living world for like 50+ years depending on their emotional state then Franmalth finding hades soul within 1-15 days isn’t to crazy

And idk about this statement it seems a little shaky But I found this statement of Zeref saying his curse steals soulshttps://***********.com/read-online/Fairy-Tail-chapter-250-page-6.html

 

[LordGinSama]

Souls don't stay on earth depending on how emotional they are, the way souls work varies from fiction to fiction and from religion to religion.

 

[senseikeleon]

Souls don't stay on earth depending on how emotional they are, the way souls work varies from fiction to fiction and from religion to religion.

Yea And in FT it has been shown that soul can linger and can wonder around long after their death depending on the emotional state of the dead like if they have unfinished business like Wraith did or they can remain if souls are in an emotional state like anger as in the case of the dead dragons that were killed by Acnologia

 

[LordGinSama]

The reason for the EE resistance CRT was because we had nothing else to go on other than Resistance. This is completely different now given we have a Godly Regen feat from Mavis. If we assume that his regen only works for the Soul it completely messes up with his resistance for one thing. Zeref does in fact know that Lost Aspect erases the users Existence(Body and Mind)

Zeref doesn't know how to use Lost Iced Shell, that's a move that only Gray can perform. It's a solely iced based magic, which Zeref hasn't shown to be able to use. And how would it mess with his resistance? The regeneration only applying to the soul seems perfectly logical to me, since Mavis only exists as a soul

This completely failed to kill Zeref based on multiple statements from Zeref himself in the link I left near the top of the thread. That form of EE doesn't even erase the soul yet it still failed to kill him, so that clearly doesn't work. Then there's Momento Mori which by Zeref's own account would also fail to kill him. Which Erases on a conceptual level which is much more than just the soul. Then there's Genesis Zero which is EE on the Mind, Soul, and Body, so does Zeref resist only physical and Mental EE but can just Regenerate his Soul? That just doesn't make sense from both a scaling and writing perspective. The Only Soul Regen argument just falls apart once you take a look at the statements with that feat in mind.

We should also take into consideration that the regeneration of her soul NEVER happened. Cana destroys the projection and afterwards Mavis comes back from her crystal, which is her pshycial body and not her soul. So Cana destroyed the projection (Which didn't regenerate, at least it wasn't shown.) so what part of this is Godly of any type whenever the proposal is missing a bunch of context? Because it wasn't her soul that recovered and continued to exist in that form, it just allowed her to use her pshycial body within the crystal.

 

[Zackra1799]

Zeref doesn't know how to use Lost Iced Shell, that's a move that only Gray can perform. It's a solely iced based magic, which Zeref hasn't shown to be able to use. And how would it mess with his resistance? The regeneration only applying to the soul seems perfectly logical to me, since Mavis only exists as a soul




We should also take into consideration that the regeneration of her soul NEVER happened. Cana destroys the projectionand afterwards Mavis comes back from her crystal, which is her pshycial body and not her soul. So Cana destroyed the projection (Which didn't regenerate, at least it wasn't shown.) so what part of this is Godly of any type whenever the proposal is missing a bunch of context? Because it wasn't her soul that recovered and continued to exist in that form, it just allowed her to use her pshycial body within the crystal.

Iced Shell doesn't erase the user's existence, it's the lost aspect part of the spell which erases the users existence.

The regeneration of the soul did happen as Mavis's thought projection which is her soul as stated by multiple sources was completely Erased by Cana, also your argument about Fairy Glitter not being EE doesn't work given we literally see Mavis's Soul Erased by it. Without her soul she wouldn't be conscious, Natsu is a perfect example of this as his body was put into a half dead state while his soul was outside of his physical body.

 

[UeTa]

Seems good to me. You have my approval!

 

[Omimi]

Agree with low godly since I am not too sure about mid godly

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, the staff thread has been concluded and for this type of regen, we simply don’t label it as any type, we just specify what the regen does in the profile as this is such a unique case

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Do we remove Zeref's Mid Regeneration or just add the note about their soul being to regenerate?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Do we remove Zeref's Mid Regeneration or just add the note about their soul being to regenerate?

Yes, because Mid wouldn’t be accurate anymore, we literally don’t give it a label at all and just explain what the regen can do

 

[senseikeleon]

Alright so that’s settled

so do we still give Mavis and Zeref soul manipulation due to Zeref ripping out Mavis’s soul

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

IMO, yes

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean yuh, he took her soul so that's blatant soul manipulation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So Soul Manipulation and the Mid Regeneration just gets called Regeneration with it being specified how it is since it’s a unique case.

That sound good?

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, it's fine by me.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Let me call one last staff member to get this settled

 

[Elizhaa]

Soul Manipulation is fine for both Mavis and Zeref.

Also what does everyone think about removing Natsu's Regen Negation?

• The ability seems fine to remove, to me

The body still exists for Mavis so I don't really see Godly regeneration being possible from a normal mean. At best, currently, I could see something like Regeneration (Mid normally; can regenerate his/her souls if destroyed to [regeneration level]). This case could be similar to Mob's case with his normal and astral state's or soul's regeneration. Also, which chapter is the scene where Cana presumably destroy Mavis's soul because I want to check the soul regeneration level if possible? The regeneration of the soul seems to be between High-Mid to Mid-High

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Soul Manipulation is fine for both Mavis and Zeref.

Also what does everyone think about removing Natsu's Regen Negation?

• The ability seems fine to remove, to me

The body still exists for Mavis so I don't really see Godly regeneration being possible from a normal mean. At best, currently, I could see something like Regeneration (Mid normally; can regenerate his/her souls if destroyed to [regeneration level]). This case could be similar to Mob's case with his normal and astral state's or soul's regeneration. Also, which chapter is the scene where Cana presumably destroy Mavis's soul because I want to check the soul regeneration level if possible? The regeneration of the soul seems to be between High-Mid to Mid-High

The chapter where Mavis's Soul gets destroyed is Chapter 489

 

[LordGinSama]

It's vaporization, unless it's specially specified to be complete and total pshycial Annihilation. Fairy Glitter has never shown any Erasure feats on it's own, it's just a blast of light magic iirc.

 

[Zackra1799]

It's vaporization, unless it's specially specified to be complete and total pshycial Annihilation. Fairy Glitter has never shown any Erasure feats on it's own, it's just a blast of light magic iirc.

Except that Mavis, the smartest character in the verse, literally says that she needs Cana to wipe out her soul and Erase it. This is clear cut EE

 

[LordGinSama]

As I said above, a character being knowledgable doesn't make them immune to them making hyperbolic statements, and if we're frank it isn't exactly rare to see flowery language in Hiro's work.




Fairy Glitter has never been shown to have any existence Erasure aspects aside from this instance which is hyperbolic in nature. Never in any instance has Cana shown Erasure with her Fairy Glitter. Like the time he used it against August and failed to erase jack shit. Not to mention if it was literal erasure then the crystal her body is hidden within would have also been completely erased as the damage is transferred from her soul to the crystal, therefore if her soul were erased as would have been the crystal.