Fairy Tail: Wraith scalling needs to change

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, I've been bothered by something for a while now

1. We are scaling Base Wraith to Enhanced Neinhart
2. We are scaling Wraith possessing Makarov to be 4x stronger than Makarov and Base Wraith

I was the one who initially brought this over a year ago, but I have come to realize it's complete nonsense

First of all, right before Natsu fights Wraith, he directly says that he's almost out of magic. I know that Natsu has insane magic power regen, but the fact that he says he's low on magic power right before this fight means that he was substantially weakened when he was fighting Wraith. Another thing to note is that Base Wraith doesn't really hurt Natsu will most of his attacks, he only does minor damage that annoys him really. The only attack that does any damage is Dragon Spirit, and while yeah, that's impressive, it's still a weakened already injured Natsu. As well, when Natsu attacks and damages Wraith, he only uses basic punches and kicks, with no fire amps at all, and remember that this is an already weakened Natsu, so yeah, to suggest this Wraith is taking hits comparable to the ones Enhanced Neinhart took is a bit far fetched. Even more evidence that supports this is that we know for a fact that Brandish is stronger than X792 Makarov, she has greater magic power, he is still within the realm of her power, but he is weaker. Enhanced Neinhart is far stronger than Brandish, and not to mention Makarov in X793 is weaker than his X792 key as he is physically crippled, which is explicitly said by Wraith to be one of the reasons why he lost to Natsu. As well, Wraith explicitly says that someone needs magic power equal to or above his own to have a good Synchro rate with him, Makarov fits this bill, and Wraith even says that Makarov has enourmous magic power, meaning that even Crippled Makarov is above Base Wraith. So Base Wraith<X793 Makarov<X792 Makarov<Brandish<Enhanced Neinhart. There's just no way to reliably scale Base Wraith to Neinhart or Brandish, it flat out doesn't work. This all makes the idea that Makarov+Wraith is a whopping 4x stronger than before iffy. Now Makarov should still have the same level of magic power as in X792, just being physically weaker, so I guess you can argue that Wraith and Makarov's combined power that multiplies into each other would be around 2x Makarov, but this whole 4x above Makarov needs to go.

Now this actually changes nobody but Wraith as Base Natsu and those that scale to him have other feats that put them at the same AP Value they are at now, they are staying 6-C based on numerous things, the point is that Wraith and Makarov need to be changed

EDIT: Now Zackra has suggested that Base Wraith should scale to and above Alta Face, since while Base Wraith was able to somewhat hurt a weakened Base Natsu, Alta Face was unable to do anything to a Base Natsu who couldn't use magic at all, this would retroactively change all of the Spriggans AP Values, making them all 6-C, so I believe this is a very important discussion

 

[BlackeJan]

I was pretty sure the only reason they even got to 6C was because of that multiplier

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I was pretty sure the only reason they even got to 6C was because of that multiplier

Back in the day yeah, nowadays no

 

[Theendzero13]

Yeah i agree with mitch

 

[Eseseso]

I completely agree with the downgrading proposal, but how is Natsu still 10.6 gigatons? I thought the main reason for him being 10.6 gigatons was due to him scaling to Wraith-Makarov, who was 4x Wraith.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I completely agree with the downgrading proposal, but how is Natsu still 10.6 gigatons? I thought the main reason for him being 10.6 gigatons was due to him scaling to Wraith-Makarov, who was 4x Wraith.

He's comparable to Devil Slayer Mark Gray, who's still 10.6 Gigatons from his feats in X792

 

[Eseseso]

He's comparable to Devil Slayer Mark Gray, who's still 10.6 Gigatons from his feats in X792

I thought DS Mark Gray was 2.65 gigatons in X792 and was only 10.6 gigatons with Evolved DS Mark, the latter of which has not appeared in 100YQ IIRC.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I thought DS Mark Gray was 2.65 gigatons in X792 and was only 10.6 gigatons with Evolved DS Mark, the latter of which has not appeared in 100YQ IIRC.

No, not at all, those are the same forms of Gray, Evolved Devil Slayer Mark basically means his Devil Slayer Mark evolved during Alvarez, but his current one in 100YQ would be above his Evolved Devil Slayer Mark in X792 as he kept his evolution

Basically his Devil Slayer Mark grows stronger overtime

 

[Eseseso]

No, not at all, those are the same Gray

So Evolved DS Mark Gray in X792 is equal to normal X793 DS Mark Gray?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So Evolved DS Mark Gray in X792 is equal to normal X793 DS Mark Gray?

Evolved Devil Slayer Mark basically means his Devil Slayer Mark evolved during Alvarez, but his current one in 100YQ would be above his Evolved Devil Slayer Mark in X792 as he kept his evolution

Basically his Devil Slayer Mark grows stronger overtime

 

[Eseseso]

Evolved Devil Slayer Mark basically means his Devil Slayer Mark evolved during Alvarez, but his current one in 100YQ would be above his Evolved Devil Slayer Mark in X792 as he kept his evolution

Basically his Devil Slayer Mark grows stronger overtime

Huh. Neat. Did not know that.

But just in case, are there any other scalings that support Base Natsu in X793 being 10.6 gigatons?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Huh. Neat. Did not know that.

But just in case, are there any other scalings that support Base Natsu in X793 being 10.6 gigatons?

No, not really, it's all based on Devil Slayer Gray, however they'd still be 6-C, just Baseline as Base Natsu level characters can One-shot Base Wendy, who's Durability is extremely close to Baseline 6-C

 

[Zackra1799]

I actually have a different proposal, Natsu with low Magic was still being somewhat affected by Wraith's melee attacks as shown in the scans in the OP, but Natsu with no magic was only pushed back by Alta Face's beam attack. Low Magic Natsu >>> No Magic Natsu, as Mage's without magic are significantly nerfed compared to their normal selves.

This would put Base Wraith above the Beam attack from Alta Face.

 

[Eseseso]

I actually have a different proposal, Natsu with low Magic was still being somewhat affected by Wraith's melee attacks as shown in the scans in the OP, but Natsu with no magic was only pushed back by Alta Face's beam attack. Low Magic Natsu >>> No Magic Natsu, as Mage's without magic are significantly nerfed compared to their normal selves.

This would put Base Wraith above the Beam attack from Alta Face.

If this is accepted, then Wraith should probably be a Baseline 6-C for scaling above this beam, since it's just a 0.3 gigaton difference.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I actually have a different proposal, Natsu with low Magic was still being somewhat affected by Wraith's melee attacks as shown in the scans in the OP, but Natsu with no magic was only pushed back by Alta Face's beam attack. Low Magic Natsu >>> No Magic Natsu, as Mage's without magic are significantly nerfed compared to their normal selves.

This would put Base Wraith above the Beam attack from Alta Face.

Ehhhhh maybe, I'm not sure if Wraith really did more damage to Natsu, and I don't really think Natsu was weaker in that instance, you can definitely compare them however

That would however change a lot of the Spriggan scaling tho, making all of them Baseline 6-C tho, so we should consider talking this over more before making any big decisions

 

[Eseseso]

Ehhhhh maybe, I'm not sure if Wraith really did more damage to Natsu, and I don't really think Natsu was weaker in that instance, you can definitely compare them however

That would however change a lot of the Spriggan scaling tho, making all of them Baseline 6-C tho, so we should consider talking this over more before making any big decisions

How would this change Spriggan scaling? This was X793 Natsu, so while it would make sense for a normal Spriggan to be above a magic-less Base Natsu from X793, we don't know for sure.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

How would this change Spriggan scaling? This was X793 Natsu, so while it would make sense for a normal Spriggan to be above a magic-less Base Natsu from X793, we don't know for sure.

If Base Wraith becomes High 7-A (4 Gigatons) via scaling to Alta Face's Beam, that would mean that X793 Makarov scales above him, and then X792 Makarov scales above them, and then Brandish scales above them, the gap to Baseline 6-C (4.3 Gigatons) is miniscule, so that would end up making all Spriggans at least Baseline 6-C

 

[Theendzero13]

How would this change Spriggan scaling? This was X793 Natsu, so while it would make sense for a normal Spriggan to be above a magic-less Base Natsu from X793, we don't know for sure.

Because that would make wraith island level and he is bellow makarov who is bellow any spriggan
So the scaling would be spriggans stronger than makarov who is stronger than wrait who is island level

 

[Theendzero13]

If Base Wraith becomes High 7-A (4 Gigatons) via scaling to Alta Face's Beam, that would mean that X793 Makarov scales above him, and then X792 Makarov scales above them, and then Brandish scales above them, the gap to Baseline 6-C (4.3 Gigatons) is miniscule, so that would end up making all Spriggans at least Baseline 6-C

They may already be above baseline 6-C depending on how you take some statements

 

[Eseseso]

They may already be above baseline 6-C depending on how you take some statements

Or feats/calcs.

 

[Zackra1799]

Ehhhhh maybe, I'm not sure if Wraith really did more damage to Natsu, and I don't really think Natsu was weaker in that instance, you can definitely compare them however

That would however change a lot of the Spriggan scaling tho, making all of them Baseline 6-C tho, so we should consider talking this over more before making any big decisions

Oh I definitely agree, this would change alot and needs further discussion.

 

[KingTempest]

Mini CRT turns into a massive one

Should this be for another thread or leave it how it is?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Mini CRT turns into a massive one

Should this be for another thread or leave it how it is?

Leaving it as is should be fine, it's still all about Base Wraith

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I can agree with Base Wraith scaling to Alta Face's Beam, he did do more damage to a stronger Base Natsu

But I want far more opinions on this as it effects a lot of characters

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think Zackra’s suggestion actually makes a lot of sense. I’m all for it.

 

[Theendzero13]

I agree with zackra as well

 

[GuildZero]

I agree with zacks suggestion. But if that is accepted what would him in makarov body be rated as.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Zackra's proposal.

Here's how I think some of the scaling will look:

390.91 megatons (still Mountain Level): Alvarez soldiers and anyone who scales to Alvarez soldiers

781.82 megatons (Mountain+ Level): God Seed Doom

2.15 gigatons (and still High 7-A): X792 Lucy, X792 Lisanna and Elfman, X792 Juvia, X792 Lyon, X792 Base Wendy and Sherria, X792 Base Gray, Wahl's Machias Dolls, Meredy, Erik/Cobra,

4.3 gigatons (Baseline 6-C): Zash Caine, Animus, X792 Base Natsu, X792 Base Gajeel, X792 Base Erza, Wraith, all Brandish-tier Spriggans, probably Kagura, the Historias, Sting, Rogue, Minerva, Wraith, X793 Wendy, Base Nebal, X792-3 Makarov, Wizard Saints above Makarov, Doll, Swan, Heine, Juliet, X792 Base and Satan Soul Mirajane (since even a weakened Base Mira managed to hurt Jacob with her blows), Ichiya

8.6 gigatons: X792 Dragon Force Wendy, X793 Star Dress Lucy, X793 Base Gray and Juvia, X793 Lisanna, Mimi, God Soul Dimaria (via upscaling from DF Wendy, since there isn't enough to prove she is at 17.2 gigaton-level), 3rd Origin Sherria, X793 Fairy Glitter Cana

17.2 gigatons: X793 Erza, X793 Base Natsu and Gajeel, X793 Devil Slayer Mark Gray, X792 Evolved Devil Slayer Mark Gray, X793 Mirajane and Elfman, X793 Star Dress Mix Lucy, Metro, Kiria, Skullion, Madmole, Wraith fused with Makarov, Dragon Force Nebal, X792 FDKM Natsu, X792 Strongest Armor Erza, X792 Base Laxus and Assault Mode Wall, X792 DF Gajeel, Satan Soul Alegria Mirajane, X793 Dragon Force Wendy, Gildarts (minumum), X792 Jellal, Hakune, Base Youko, E.N.D. Natsu

25.8 gigatons: X793 LFDM Natsu and X793 ISDM Gajeel

34.4 gigatons: Larcade, White Shadow Dragon Force Sting, Base August and Irene (upscale), Gildarts (probably, because for some reason his writeup says he is likely stronger than Base Irene and Base August even though there is nothing to prove it)

68.8 gigatons (Island+ Level): X793 Base Laxus, X793 FDKM Natsu, X793 Strongest Armor Erza, X793 Jellal, Outer Path Youko, Gears, X792 RLDM Laxus

103.2 gigatons (Large Island Level): Enchantment Erza and X793 RLDM Laxus

137.6 gigatons, Limit Break Natsu, Lucy, Gray, Erza, and Wendy

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with zacks suggestion. But if that is accepted what would him in makarov body be rated as.

It is 4.3 (Wraith) times 4, so it'd be at least 17.2 gigatons

 

[GuildZero]

It is 4.3 (Wraith) times 4, so it'd be at least 17.2 gigatons

Thanks

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree with Zackra's proposal.

Here's how I think some of the scaling will look:

2.15 gigatons (and still High 7-A): X792 Lucy, X792 Lisanna and Elfman, X792 Juvia, X792 Lyon, X792 Base Wendy and Sherria, X792 Base Gray, Wahl's Machias Dolls, Meredy, Erik/Cobra,

4.3 gigatons (Baseline 6-C): Zash Caine, Animus, X792 Base Natsu, X792 Base Gajeel, X792 Base Erza, Wraith, all Brandish-tier Spriggans, probably Kagura, the Historias, Sting, Rogue, Minerva, Wraith, X793 Wendy, Base Nebal, X792-3 Makarov, Wizard Saints above Makarov, Doll, Swan, Heine, Juliet, X792 Base and Satan Soul Mirajane (since even a weakened Base Mira managed to hurt Jacob with her blows), Ichiya

8.6 gigatons: X792 Dragon Force Wendy, X793 Star Dress Lucy, X793 Base Gray and Juvia, X793 Lisanna, Mimi, God Soul Dimaria (via upscaling from DF Wendy, since there isn't enough to prove she is at 17.2 gigaton-level), 3rd Origin Sherria, X793 Fairy Glitter Cana

17.2 gigatons: X793 Erza, X793 Base Natsu and Gajeel, X793 Devil Slayer Mark Gray, X792 Evolved Devil Slayer Mark Gray, X793 Mirajane and Elfman, X793 Star Dress Mix Lucy, Metro, Kiria, Skullion, Madmole, Wraith fused with Makarov, Dragon Force Nebal, X792 FDKM Natsu, X792 Strongest Armor Erza, X792 Base Laxus and Assault Mode Wall, X792 DF Gajeel, Satan Soul Alegria Mirajane, X793 Dragon Force Wendy, Gildarts (minumum), X792 Jellal, Hakune, Base Youko, E.N.D. Natsu

25.8 gigatons: X793 LFDM Natsu and X793 ISDM Gajeel

34.4 gigatons: Larcade, White Shadow Dragon Force Sting, Base August and Irene (upscale), Gildarts (probably, because for some reason his writeup says he is likely stronger than Base Irene and Base August even though there is nothing to prove it)

68.8 gigatons: X793 Base Laxus, X793 FDKM Natsu, X793 Strongest Armor Erza, X793 Jellal, Outer Path Youko, Gears, X792 RLDM Laxus

103.2 gigatons: Enchantment Erza and X793 RLDM Laxus

137.6 gigatons, Limit Break Natsu, Lucy, Gray, Erza, and Wendy

So many changes just for one character changing their scaling

 

[KingTempest]

What Zackra put forward looks good

 

[TheForgottenKing]

Is agree with Zackra

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Zackra is correct here imo. Nice catch dude.

 

[Eseseso]

So many changes just for one character changing their scaling

Ain't scaling just wonderful?

Also @DemonGodMitchAubin , if you don't mind for the sake of making scaling Gildarts less confusing, why is he "probably above Base August and Base Irene"? Yes he damaged attack mode August but there's nothing to suggest he's above base August/Irene

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ain't scaling just wonderful?

Also @DemonGodMitchAubin , if you don't mind for the sake of making scaling Gildarts less confusing, why is he "probably above Base August and Base Irene"? Yes he damaged attack mode August but there's nothing to suggest he's above base August/Irene

He's not far behind Ultimate Magic Form August, so he must be above those two

 

[Eseseso]

He's not far behind Ultimate Magic Form August, so he must be above those two

Eh, I'll take it.

So minimum Gildarts now scales above 34.4 gigatons (since Gildarts > Base August/Irene > Larcade = White Shadow Dragon Force Sting = 34.4 gigatons), while his maximum is...still the same.

On the bright side, X793 RLDM Laxus and Enchantment Erza are now both Large Island Level!

Also, now that everyone agrees with the upgrades, who wants to do the edits?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Also, now that everyone agrees with the upgrades, who wants to do the edits?

We need more staff for a change this big

 

[BlackeJan]

I actually have a different proposal, Natsu with low Magic was still being somewhat affected by Wraith's melee attacks as shown in the scans in the OP, but Natsu with no magic was only pushed back by Alta Face's beam attack. Low Magic Natsu >>> No Magic Natsu, as Mage's without magic are significantly nerfed compared to their normal selves.

This would put Base Wraith above the Beam attack from Alta Face.

That shows more how they took a good amount of damage though. That u can even tell by the horror looks on their faces

And we have to take into consideration on how does someone with Low magic be stronger then themselves with more magic unless Natsu somehow got stronger after that time. This is like a trope with how characters would get hit hard and get right back up

EDIT: iirc didn’t it take a bunch of mages to go with a limit breaker (a whole lot stronger then their original base) and all hit Atlas at once? That would mean that Base Wraith is somehow stronger then LB FT mages

 

[Zackra1799]

That shows more how they took a good amount of damage though. That u can even tell by the horror looks on their faces

Natsu barely reacted to the attack, they were more worried about being unable to use magic, as they literally just saw Alta Face tank an Amped FDKM attack, so what the hell could they do when they are bellow Base Natsu Level.

And we have to take into consideration on how does someone with Low magic be stronger then themselves with more magic unless Natsu somehow got stronger after that time

Natsu's body had no magic when he tanked Alta Face's beam, Natsu had Magic when he fought Wraith and took more damage from wraith's attacks then the Beam did.

This puts Base Wraith above the Beam.

EDIT: iirc didn’t it take a bunch of mages to go with a limit breaker (a whole lot stronger then their original base) and all hit Atlas at once? That would mean that Base Wraith is somehow stronger then LB FT mages

Alta Face's Dura =/= his AP, his only actual AP feat that his main body has is a High 7-A+ blast which barely did anything even thought the main cast was significantly nerfed.

Alta Face's Dura is 6-C+ via being able tank a FDKM attack that was amped by Wendy.