Fairy Tail Minor Revisions CRT

[CloverDragon03]

Basically what Mitch said. Gray's Devil Slayer advantage makes this even more impressive. Additionally, it's not a complete durability negation, only a limited one.

 

[senseikeleon]

Idk what even gives them Limited durability negation like is it the fact that Slayers are more effective against an opponent that matches their specific type of magic?

but either way if it’s limited then ya it’s just even more impressive that mard geer tanked it

And if we consider the game as a secondary canon source or at least consider the unison raid feature as canon since hiro specifically checked over it and the new Unison Raids were what was specifically said to be what hiro himself advised to Keisuke Kikuchi and the video game staff

Then that would seal the deal for me and id change my position from neutral to agree but I would still like to see others input

 

[Delta3000]

I agree with the fodder scaling and EMG. A tentative agree on the lifting strength.
Some other revisions:
1) Irene is missing a few powers; immortality types 1 and 6 as well as mind manipulation (compelled Neinheart to obey her when she amped him, berserker reduces intelligence) statistics amplification (amped Neinheart, berserker and can probably use Wendy's stat amps to) and Deus zero added to her power nullification as it can remove statistics amplification and counter spell other uses of Deus zero.
2) brandish upgraded to 6-C/possibly 6-C in 100 years quest. since she was able to use her magic on base erza, mirajane and gajeel disspite the limitation of her magic being she can't use it on people significantly stronger than her.

 

[Delta3000]

Irene should probably also get fear inducement as well since erza's use of the power caused Neinheart to recognise her as Irene's daughter not erza's appearance.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with the fodder scaling and EMG. A tentative agree on the lifting strength.
Some other revisions:
1) Irene is missing a few powers; immortality types 1 and 6 as well as mind manipulation (compelled Neinheart to obey her when she amped him, berserker reduces intelligence) statistics amplification (amped Neinheart, berserker and can probably use Wendy's stat amps to) and Deus zero added to her power nullification as it can remove statistics amplification and counter spell other uses of Deus zero.
2) brandish upgraded to 6-C/possibly 6-C in 100 years quest. since she was able to use her magic on base erza, mirajane and gajeel disspite the limitation of her magic being she can't use it on people significantly stronger than her.

Brandish shouldn't get 6-C in 100YQ because the three people you mentioned allowed themselves to be enlarged or shrunk by her, so we can't use that as a reference.

Also, I agree on all the Irene changes except for Fear Inducement (there's nothing to suggest this just because of Erza intimidating Neinhart) and Immortality (she just gets Longevity)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

^What DragonGamerZ said

 

[CloverDragon03]

On another note, I actually want to suggest something.

On Tenrou Island, Bluenote is Class M for his gravity and Gildarts is Class M for withstanding it. However, Natsu was able to withstand it too. Yeah, he had more difficulty, but he was able to stand, run, and jump in it and he wasn't knocked down until Bluenote actually directly attacked Natsu.

So, should X784 Base Natsu be Class M? And what about those who scale to him?

 

[senseikeleon]

Here is the interview with Keisuke Kikuchi the game producer and here he goes over the new unison raids introduced into the game and here is what he says regarding Hiro’s involvement with the unison raids

“-The game will feature Unison Raids that weren't portrayed in the original manga. Are there any new combinations you're particularly fond of?

“Keisuke-The Unison Raid featuring Natsu and Lucy did not appear in the original manga, but we received advice from Mashima-sensei and added it into the game. We really put a lot of effort into creating it. Please also enjoy seeing Unison Raids from the original series such as Lucy and Juvia's, which has a fresh new feel once you see it in 3D”
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/in...ry-tail-game-producer-keisuke-kikuchi/.162334

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well Wendy and Sherria's wind kick was in the manga, we just got it clarified as a Unison Raid in the game, so that isn't one of the game only ones

 

[senseikeleon]

Right I’m just trying to see if other people agree that the clarification from the game and hiro and the game’s developers that Wendy’s and Sherria's kicks being considered unison raids then the same can be said about Natsu and grays combined attack on mard geer

 

[LordGinSama]

Is the game canon? If not then I don't see the point in using the game itself as "evidence".

 

[Delta3000]

Brandish shouldn't get 6-C in 100YQ because the three people you mentioned allowed themselves to be enlarged or shrunk by her, so we can't use that as a reference.

Also, I agree on all the Irene changes except for Fear Inducement (there's nothing to suggest this just because of Erza intimidating Neinhart) and Immortality (she just gets Longevity)

Yes it is, Neinheart never comments on erza's appearance just her use of fear inducement which he directly compared to Irene's magic.
Why? every other dragon, dead or alive, got type 1 due to zeref's statement that acnologia could torture him forever and Irene has met the requirements for type 6 as far as I can tell.

 

[senseikeleon]

@LordGinSama
We aren’t saying the whole game is canon only the part we know Hiro was involved in and we are talking about a clarification of a “new” unison raid

And the argument for the unison raids from the game being canon is for the game the unison raids is the part which Hiro is stated to directly check over and Hiro himself was the one who advised the producers of the game to add in new unison raids into the game that he himself was unable to do in the manga such as the Natsu and Lucy unison raid from the game as in the manga we never saw Natsu and Lucy do a unison raid

And what we are talking about isn’t a “new” unison raid really

As the feat in question did happen in the manga it’s just that the game and basically Hiro himself clarifies that the feat of Wendy and Sherria kicking Dimaria is indeed identified as a unison raid

And the only reason we brought it up is because gray and Natsu did basically the same thing to mard geer that Wendy and Sherria did to Dimaria but just using their fist

And the only reason we are talking about it is if we consider Wendy and Sherria and or Natsu and grays
Twin Kicks or twin punches as unison raids then we know for a fact more a less that Natsu and gray mixed their powers together rather than just attacking mard geer at the same time like how people were arguing earlier

But either way it doesn’t really matter if we don’t accept it as a unison raid or not as their still is an argument as to why we could accept mard geer being 2x his base

it’s whatever I’m still neutral on the whole mard geer situation while it seems like majority in thread so far agree with mitch’s proposal regarding mard geer
But ima stay neutral until I see more points supporting either side then ima make my decision

 

[Zackra1799]

Another thing to consider, is that it took a combined effort of Natsu and Gray punching Mard Geers Dea Yggdrasil to stalemate it and Dozens of punches to destroy it. So another 2x Base feat for Etherious Mard Geer

 

[LordGinSama]

You can't just suddenly accept random tid bits from a game that has no authority in the manga just because the author oversaw it. Lots of Mangaka do the same thing, Echiro Oda works on some of the episodes in One Piece, he even had a ton of insight in the development of the Pirate Warriors games, that doesn't mean any of the information is canon to the manga or even the anime itself. Kubo worked on some episodes of Bleach, etc. It's totally ambiguous to say that only certain parts from the game are canon, it's either all apart of the canon or none of it is. Attempting to use information from a game that's completely non-canon is a no go and that wouldn't fly for any other verse, Fairy Tail wouldn't be an exception here.



The Unison Raid is the only way you'd be able to justify Mard being 2x his base form without a stated multiplier or without the usage of a Unison Raid. At best I'd say a "at least" would suffice for his Evolved form, it requires a lot of unsupported assumptions to say that he's 2x as twice for tanking two attacks.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That aside, it's worth noting that Natsu and Gray's attack there created an singular explosion, meaning it was an explosion combining their magics, yet Mard Geer tanked it.

And like mentioned earlier, it took the combined effort of Natsu and Gray to match his Dea Yggdrasil.

 

[Zackra1799]

@LordGinSama
The Conservation of Energy would disagree with your argument. If one character stalemates two other characters than the need to have equal energy behind them otherwise one of them would give way. This isn't the case in either scenario, Natsu and Gray Stalemated an attack form Mard Geer, and Mard himself was unfazed by Natsu and Grays combined attack as well.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I didn’t mean to get so in depth about the Fairy Tail Game, I just used it as a clarification that an attack that was in the manga was clarified as a Unison Raid, which makes sense as it was two people using attacks and combining them together, said attack is similar to what Natsu and Gray did, so it’s not that absurd for Etherious Mard to be at least comparable to their combined power

 

[LordGinSama]

Equating this with Kaido and Zunesha is the equivalent of comparing apples and oranges.

The reason Kaido was decided to not scale to Zunesha was because the basis for the scaling was a title, a title that could be hyperbolic in nature and in consequence meant little. Not to talk of the fact that there was no explicit interaction between Kaido and Zunesha where a superior was blatantly identified.

Not the case here, small Aldo says “all the power of that size is with me” the direct implication is that any physical benefit that big Aldo enjoys due to its immense size (aside from said size itself) is directly enjoyed by lil Aldo, this would include LS.

Seeing that unlike Kaido, this isn’t just a random title and is instead an explicit declaration of the nature of Aldo’s power and coupled with the fact that big and lil Aldo are quite literally the same organism unlike the undefined relationship between Kaido and Zunesha in regards to strength, their circumstances vary too much to equate an argument that applies on one to the other.

I'm sorry but to be Frank, this is a load of horse shit and you cleary have zero idea on your talking about.




The statement of Kaido being >>> Zun is absolutely 100% correct. Out of all the creatures in One Piece Kaido is the most durable, and the strongest creature when it comes to sheer physical strength and AP. Kaido doesn't scale to Zunisha, he currently scales massively above him via scaling to other Yonko and having several feats that place him massively above Zu. Zu even with his strongest trunk swing was unable to knock out Jack the Drought, the only thing the attack managed to do was damage him and leave him stuck at the ocean floor due to Devil Fruit weaknesses, Zu was also being damaged by canonballs and Jack was even certain he could kill Zu if given the chance. On the other hand Kaido tanked a barrage of a bloodlusted Gear Fourth Bound-Man without being remotely bothered and proceeded to one shot him with Thunder Bunga. Gear Fourth Bound-Man would wail on Jack and Kaido one shot him casually. Like are we even reading the same manga mate? Because we clearly aren't. You haven't disproven anything with this headcanon of a reply, to be perfectly honest it makes it seem like you aren't even knowledgeable about the series.



Power doesn't automatically translate into how much one can lift, being able to punch and being able to lift are two very different things. The term "power" here often refers to the Attack Potency or Destructive Capacity of a character as opposed to the lifting strength. Even with his statement of having all the power Big Aldo has wouldn't mean small Aldo has the same lifting strength as Big Aldo. It's one thing to scale his AP to Big Aldo but it's an entirely different matter to try to scale his lifting strength to something that's always carrying his own body weight, plus several mountains and cities.







I've already explained why the Kaido example still holds and why it isn't a "random statement." even the novels clarify that Kaido is the strongest creature in the verse, his feats, portrayal and standing in the verse puts him above and beyond Zu, so let's not attempt to spread any misinformation thank you. The point being is that just because Kaido is physically stronger and more durable than Zu doesn't mean he can lift as much as Zu can due to them being at two very different weight classes. Kaido is objectively speaking stronger than Zu but we don't scale his lifting strength to Zu for obvious reasons.

 

[LordGinSama]

I didn’t mean to get so in depth about the Fairy Tail Game, I just used it as a clarification that an attack that was in the manga was clarified as a Unison Raid, which makes sense as it was two people using attacks and combining them together, said attack is similar to what Natsu and Gray did, so it’s not that absurd for Etherious Mard to be at least comparable to their combined power

Ah I gotcha, well in that case I can settle for a compromise for The Mard situation. A "possibly / likely [ enter tier here ] should suffice.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama
The Conservation of Energy would disagree with your argument. If one character stalemates two other characters than the need to have equal energy behind them otherwise one of them would give way. This isn't the case in either scenario, Natsu and Gray Stalemated an attack form Mard Geer, and Mard himself was unfazed by Natsu and Grays combined attack as well.

Not necessarily, overpowering an attack from two comparable characters doesn't mean the force of said attack is automatically multiplied. That's just two 7-A attacks being thrown at them, taking such an attack wouldn't make the person who tanked it twice as strong. The Unison Raid has a lot more evidence than simply "two characters attacked him together so that means he's 2x stronger than them." That argument is flawed and in all of my years on this wiki I've never seen any verse get this type of treatment.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not a multiplied thing at all, it's just a 1 + 1 = 2 sort of thing. The combined force of Natsu and Gray's power was only able to match an attack from Mard Geer, and the explosion that resulted from Natsu and Gray attacking Mard Geer together didn't really hurt him.

The big thing to note here as well is that he flat-out tanked this attack. He was barely damaged.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well it’s not that two characters attacked Mard Geer, it’s that two characters combined their attacks together when they attacked Mard and then at a later point, it took two of them combining their attacks to stalemate one of Etherious Mard’s Attacks, I think it has enough evidence that Mard would be equal if not superior to their combined attacks

 

[Zackra1799]

@LordGinSama

But that goes against what Smalldoron is saying, he said "All the power of that form is within me" By the definition of the the word "all" any physical feat Big Aldoron can produce, Small Aldoron can also produce said feat, this would very much include Lifting strength as it's a physical ability.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama

But that goes against what Smalldoron is saying, he said "All the power of that form is within me" By the definition of the the word "all" any physical feat Big Aldoron can produce, Small Aldoron can also produce said feat, this would very much include Lifting strength as it's a physical ability.

Which once again, implies Attack Potency not literal lifting strength. "All" doesn't add much to the argument, your literally grasping for straws here. I.E might, meaning Attack Potency not how much small Aldo is physically capable of lifting. This statement is a cut clear statement of AP, small Aldo and large Aldo share the same AP but nowhere is it stated that small Aldo is able to lift the same amount of weight as Aldo.



Class T scaling to small Aldo is a no go until then.

 

[Zackra1799]

Which once again, implies Attack Potency not literal lifting strength. "All" doesn't add much to the argument, your literally grasping for straws here. I.E might, meaning Attack Potency not how much small Aldo is physically capable of lifting. This statement is a cut clear statement of AP, small Aldo and large Aldo share the same AP but nowhere is it stated that small Aldo is able to lift the same amount of weight as Aldo.



Class T scaling to small Aldo is a no go until then.

Once again that's pure head canon, there is nothing there that says Aldoron is just referring to AP, in fact right after he said the statement mentioned above he blitz's Natsu. That clearly isn't an AP feat but it still corresponds with the statement given by Aldoron because speed is a physical trait which is conveniently covered by "All the power of that size is with me" All the Power in this case means physical traits.

 

[senseikeleon]

I agree with CloudStrife because As CloudStrife pointed out Aldoron was likely also referring to size when he said
“all the power of that size is with me”

Since the page before that very statement
Natsu was saying how he thought he would be unable to do anything against the full body Aldoron due to his size not because of his durability or AP
Since Natsu hadn’t battled Aldoron at that point
so how would he even know how powerful Aldoron is outside of the statement regarding the god dragons being equal to Acnologia
So Natsu had to be referring to size when he said he was stomped on how he would beat something so big

But so that’s when Aldoron responded to Natsu’s statement by saying
“all of the power of that size is with me”

Basically saying just because I’ve shrunk down doesn’t mean Ive lost anything my real body possesses

 

[LordGinSama]

The only thing that's headcanon is your load of nonsense Zarka. "Power" for the 500th time translates into might, I.E Attack Potency. His speed has nothing to do with his power, so once again that's irrelevant and tells me your still grasping for straws here. A small Aldo is obviously going to be much faster than a damm near stationary big Aldo, speed has nothing to do with power unless you legitimately believe Big Aldo can also blitz Natsu and co.




Him being able to blitz Natsu is due to him being smaller and more agile, not from him having the speed from big Aldo. He gets the might of big Aldo, not the speed from Big Aldo which is non existent. Small Aldo is faster than Big Aldo for obvious reasons, much how like Big Aldo needs to lift more due to always carrying all that weight, hence why Small Aldo is faster. FYI Aldo didn't physically blitz Natsu either, that was a TK wood attack. Small Aldo was stationary and didn't even move an inch while he attacked Natsu, so that speed wasn't even pshycial.


Also if small Aldo had the same lifting strength as Big Aldo he would have very easily pushed back base Natsu during their clash, Natsu kicked Aldo's arm while in base, Small Aldo retaliates and couldn't even push him back. If Small Aldo had Class T lifting strength he would have sent Natsu flying.




For ***** sake Small Aldo couldn't even one shot base Natsu with his physical attack's, unless you also wanna imply base Natsu is also High 6-A and has class T lifting strength.

 

[senseikeleon]

A big weaker and slower Aldoron during his battle was still able to keep up with giant gajeel who is above base Natsu in speed
so I think big Aldoron could possibly blitz base Natsu

 

[LordGinSama]

A big weaker and slower Aldoron during his battle was still able to keep up with giant gajeel who is above base Natsu in speed
so I think big Aldoron could possibly blitz base Natsu

Giant Gajeel isn't above Base Natsu in speed, Base Natsu would run laps around both Big Aldo and Giant Gajeel. Big Aldo is no way in hell blitzing anyone of Base Natsu's caliber, his size would be a massive hindrance and Big Aldo can't even move for long.

 

[Zackra1799]

Dude, you can't just say, "lol, It's only AP" with zero lack of evidence to back up your claim. All you have done so far is disagree and have only brought some Head canon and non relevant one piece scaling to the table.

It's quite simple, your just taking Smalldoron's statement way out of context, He mentions "power" but "power" in this case literally means Aldoron's actual stats. Otherwise this statement doesn't work for the feat he perform literally next panel.

 

[LordGinSama]

Stop ignoring context, your doing that intentionally and that's what we call blind ignorance. I've supported my claims already as per wiki standards and what we're shown in the manga, which you yourself have yet to counter or prove.



There are several instances of Small Aldo being unable to one shot base Natsu with his pshycial blows, and in terms of physical speed was wasn't able to blitz Natsu either. He blitzed Natsu via a telekinetic wood attack, not blitzing him via physical movement, so if you could stop blatantly ignoring context of the fight instead of throwing out random tid bits without any further context that would be great.



Small Aldo has the same AP as Big Aldo, his attacks are faster due to being smaller at least for his Telekinetic wood attacks as seen with the Natsu feat where he remained stationary without moving a singular muscle. He also struck Natsu several times and failed to end the fight there instantly, couldn't blitz him normally and he wasn't able to push Natsu's kicks or punches back, which he would be able to do if he had the same lifting strength as Big Aldo.




You continue to leave out key pieces of context in order to spread misinformation intentionally. There's quite literally nothing to suggest small Aldo has the same lifting strength as Big Aldo, hell even one of his Seeds made the same statement, Metro I believe and he clearly isn't able to lift the same amount of mass as Big Aldo. Your hinging your entire argument off a singular statement that heavily implies Attack Potency and has zero implications of lifting strength, basic logic and his actual feats go against this notion.

 

[senseikeleon]

@LordGinSama
Gajeel before he battled Aldoron he battled base Natsu and then LFDM Natsu and gajeel was able to keep up with Natsu until it was basically a draw with Natsu taking the win with difficulty as Natsu was nearly out of magic after and heavily damaged in his battle with gajeel

And then we get to Giant gajeel who didn’t show any notable decreases in speed he was still able to move around just freely and fast enough to save the guild from the thicket of arms and the such so I don’t recall it being shown nor implied nor stated that gajeel got a decrease in speed


Plus gajeel only had 3 minutes to beat Aldoron so he had to do it quickly so he still had to have a considerable amount of speed
if gajeel got a decrease in speed and Aldoron happed to be faster then every one would be ****** as he would be to slow to even hit Aldoron so brandish made gajeel big with the idea in mind that it was possible for him to beat Aldoron

And even the giant gajeel calc wouldn’t have been accepted if gajeel couldn’t move around as easily as he could when he was his in his regular size

so giant gajeel should still be comparable to base Natsu in terms of speed since we don’t see any notable decrease in giant gajeel’s speed

And big Aldoron gets his speed justification from being comparable to Acnologia

so I don’t see why he couldn’t blitz base Natsu

 

[Zackra1799]

We've seen plenty of weaker characters not be oneshot by characters who are far above them, take the Dragon Slayer fight vs Acno for example. So all the stuff about Natsu not being oneshot by Aldoron is a moot point. His physical attacks were after Natsu could already dodge his telekinetic attacks post being weakened, so again moot point and lack of context.

But I'm done arguing with you about this as I've made my point known and were clearly not going to get anywhere in this battle of Subjective Wording. So I'll let other peeps decide what's best.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I’m still for “Likely/Possibly Class T”

 

[LordGinSama]

Acnologia vs the Slayer's isn't a good comparison, he dealt major damage to their organs and dispatched all of them relatively quickly. It's absolutely not a moot point, the argument of speed doesn't mean much whenever his main form of speed comes from His Telekinetic wood attacks and not his movement speed, so no it's not a moot point.




Agree to disagree I suppose but whatever.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I'm sorry but to be Frank, this is a load of horse shit and you cleary have zero idea on your talking about.




The statement of Kaido being >>> Zun is absolutely 100% correct.

Mm, if we’re being frank then I call bull as well. Last I checked Kaido’s scaling has 0 to do with Zunesha and instead all to do with Whitebeard’s feat as is literally put on the verse page.

This as far as I’m aware is the thread discussing Kaido’s scaling in relation with Zunesha where it was decided to remove said scaling completely all for the reasons I noted above. So either there has been a major OP scaling thread I’m unaware of that isn’t reflected in the profiles or ur full of- in ur words- horse shit.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well to be fair, Wendy and Sherria's double wind kick is considered a Unison Raid, so the double combination punch from Natsu and Gray should function the same, we even see their attacks form an explosion together

That wasn’t a unison raid....it would have been implied to or outright said to have been one

 

[LordGinSama]

I’m still for “Likely/Possibly Class T”

Wouldn't even be class T, it would be more along the lines of P.

Mm, if we’re being frank then I call bull as well. Last I checked Kaido’s scaling has 0 to do with Zunesha and instead all to do with Whitebeard’s feat as is literally put on the verse page.

This as far as I’m aware is the thread discussing Kaido’s scaling in relation with Zunesha where it was decided to remove said scaling completely all for the reasons I noted above. So either there has been a major OP scaling thread I’m unaware of that isn’t reflected in the profiles or ur full of- in ur words- horse shit.

First things first, The OP even states that Kaido with a singular Barro Breath would be able to blow Zu up into smithereens. All the Yonko have vastly superior feats to Zu, Kaido scales to Whitebeard, Whitebeard is a god tier who's massively above Zu's attack Potency output. A 6-B is blatantly stronger than a High 7-A - 6-C entity. Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard and Blackbeard are all above Zu with their own feats, ergo they're stronger than the Elephant. Your reading comprehension is clearly shit tier and I'd suggest staying in school. It doesn't help your case that I'm literal friends with the OP who made that thread.




Take notice of how Kaido was deemed to scale to Whitebeard's causal 6-B feat, a feat that's vastly above anything Zu has showcased. Jack survived a direct attack from Zu without much damage, a stronger Jack in the later arc was absolutely manhandled and stomped in his Zoan form by the Minks in their Sulong form and damaged him extensively. Kaido is currently fighting said mink along side several other power houses, tanked several bloodlusted attacks from Bound-Man who can wail on characters who are stronger than base Jack, human Kaido can one shot Bound-Man, someone who's superior to base Jack who previously endured an attack from Zu.




I suppose using your idiotic attempt at a debunk is meaningless. Unless you'd like to sit here and legitimately argue a 6-C is stronger than a 6-B and I don't think even you'd be dumb enough to argue this. Perhaps pick up the manga and read your own evidence before you wanna say Kaido is weaker than Zu.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'd also say that magic power doesn't translate to lifting strength because otherwise we would scale the LF of characters to other giants like Lullaby, Deliora, Ikusa-Tsunagi, Dragons etc... The fact that Aldoron can carry mountains and cities over himself is a consequence of his size, like a normal human would carry something small on its back.
And the physical clash between Natsu and God Seed Aldoron was them punching each other or blocking their respective blows, without a physical effort to overcome the muscular strength of the opponent. Natsu's LF scaling from Animus is correct, because he put effort with his arm to send him into the air, not because he defeated him.

Edit: Btw, I still agree with the "possibly"