Fairy Tail Dragon Force and FDKM Multiplier Revision

[Damage3245]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but basically, you’re suggesting it’s an addition rather than multiplication?

Essentially, yes. Mostly from the fact that her spells are worded as increasing her attributes, not multiplying them. I don't think there's sufficient evidence say that she multiplies her already multiplied stats.

Instead she's adding multiple boosts onto her. Still raises her stats.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

The scenario of addition would mean
arms is a +1 and Ile arms is a + 2
Dragon force is a multiplier of 4X and
Deus corona and deus eques is a multipler of +2 in all cases
so since it when she applies Deus corona and deus eques on dragon force
max multiplier comes out to be base +6 ?


...............

In multiplication scenario

Arms would be 1X
Ile Arms = 2X
Dues eques and Corona = 2X * 2X
Dragon Force would be at least 4X
and max multiplier would be
4X * 2 = 8X


.....

You are saying we should follow the scenario at the top ?

and you really should ask gin to not like your post. Even if you make a sensible point and a good argument the moment he likes your post it becomes null and void.

 

[Damage3245]

@CloudStrife00T; no. I don't think you're getting my original point though I've tried explaining it a couple times.

I'll see if anybody else gets what I'm talking about.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Ok, I'll wait.

 

[BlackeJan]

Damage is saying that (if I’m getting this) that instead of multiplying her stats, it’s an addition instead. I want to know where is the official translation rather then things like GoogleTranslate being used

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Wendy has a power level of 1.
Ile Enchantments are a x2.
Deus Eques is a greater boost than Ile Enchantments.

Damage is saying that Deus Eques can be a bigger boost than Ile Enchantments but the actual increase of the Ile Enchantments is only 1 so that is all we can say it buffs Wendy’s stats by if she only states she was buffed multiple times and not multiplied multiple times.

 

[Damage3245]

@AnonymousBlank; yes. Buffed multiple times is a better way of putting it than "multiplied multiple times" which is what I disagree with.

 

[Zackra1799]

But in the scan Wendy uses the Deus spells first, then applies the ile spells.
So wouldn't it be more like this:

Wendy = 1
Deus Eques = 1
Ile Spells = 2x
1 + 1 = 2 x 2 = 4x Wendy

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Pretty much tbh. The issue I see arising now is that Ile Enchantments can buff by more than just the base X so how do we quantify the Deus Eques > Ile Enchantments?

Edit: Just for clarity, I would personally argue that Deus Eques is simply a superior buff to what Ile Enchantments can do on their own. Just putting the initial part of the post out there if anyone wants to try argue it.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

arms is a +1 and Ile arms is a + 2
Dragon force is a multiplier of 4X and
Deus corona and deus eques is a addition of +2 in all cases
so since it when she applies Deus corona and deus eques on dragon force
max increase comes out to be base +6 ?

This is what is being argued for right ? If not then I give up. I will agree that my brain has stopped working

 

[Zackra1799]

@AnonymousBlank
All we know is that Deus spells provide a bigger boost then non Deus spells, so for example the increase that I gave could very well be higher than just + what ever the base stats being increased are. So we just use the "+1" as a low-ball, and It doesn't affect the proposed DF multiplier as well. We just got there differently.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Uh ..... no. We are ignoring Arms and all the basic buffs rn because they are unquantifiable.

The algebra currently happening is all in the context of Base Wendy = X. Ile = x2 and Deus Eques and Corona are greater than the difference between X and 2X, that being 2X-X=X. So now we have X+X=2X which is then multiplied by 2 and we get 4X.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Good so I am not going crazy.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Just for the mention, I asked another user that is also knowledgeable in japanese. He admits he is not good at compound sentences, but more simple things are simple enough.

He also pretty much agrees that it means "Double of/Doubled X" with X being whatever stat.

Plus, isn't Ile enchantments a step above? Like, there's Vernier (for speed), then there's Ile Vernier. So the fact that they are stronger than another, more basic enhancement and the direct translation of the kanji is only further proof. The main shaky point for anyone that is more skeptical would be the Deus spells, but like Mitch said, until she showed that she could stack them, Wendy preferred the Deus version. So being comparable at least sounds fair to me.

 

[LordGinSama]

Remind me, why would FDKM be effected here? From what I remember Natsu wasn't going to be effected, by turn this wouldn't scale to FDKM correct?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Wow, this thread got crazy

 

[Zackra1799]

Uh ..... no. We are ignoring Arms and all the basic buffs rn because they are unquantifiable.

The algebra currently happening is all in the context of Base Wendy = X. Ile = x2 and Deus Eques and Corona are greater than the difference between X and 2X, that being 2X-X=X. So now we have X+X=2X which is then multiplied by 2 and we get 4X.

But That's what I said tho...

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What everyone is saying is correct, even if Deus Eques was only an increase of 1 unit equal to Wendy’s power, since she used it first and then used Ile Enchantments, it’s still a valid 4x multiplier

But I think we’re forgetting something very important as well, Dragon Force as an Amp is far above the stacked Echantments, it’s such a big difference that Base Wendy with these Enchantments couldn’t even scratch Base Ezel, but her Dragon Force could dominate his Etherious Form, so even if you’re iffy that the initial Enchantments may not be 4x Multiplier, as a buff, Dragon Force is way way higher than that anyways, so 4x is still very likely

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well, since we have 16 people who agree with the proposal, 3 of which who are Admins and Discussion Moderators, then I believe this CRT proposal has been accepted, it is mostly unanimous with the only push back being from members who have doubts about the specifics, however I believe we have addressed said doubts above and so, the changes are allowed to be applied

I'll wait another hour or more to see if anyone else has anything to add however

 

[AKM sama]

I translated it in my message board, and yeah it's a multiplier but at least for me, whatever you peeps want out of this for upgrade, I don't think this is enough to budge the rating. Just that it's multiplier don't mean we know how much. 1.5? 2? 3? It's too vague.

Can somebody link the message wall thread in question here? Because the entire thread hinges on the translation for those kanjis and if they are vague, not a specific number, that will change things.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Can somebody link the message wall thread in question here? Because the entire thread hinges on the translation for those kanjis and if they are vague, not a specific number, that will change things.

He said that the statements translate to Attack Power Multiplication, Defense Power Multiplication, and Speed Multiplication, however it should be noted that a character kanji used in the spell, which is "倍" specifically means "Double or Twice" the amount, and the person I asked off site specifically said it was "Double" so it should still be valid as a 2x Amp

 

[LordGinSama]

He said that the statements translate to Attack Power Multiplication, Defense Power Multiplication, and Speed Multiplication, however it should be noted that a character kanji used in the spell, which is "倍" specifically means "Double or Twice" the amount, and the person I asked off site specifically said it was "Double" so it should still be valid as a 2x Amp

That's off site, no offense but that shouldn't be taken as valid unless you have sufficient proof other than "I asked someone off the wiki" without much further proof. That's a tad bit lack luster but going by Shiro's comment above he said nothing about double. Proof is what we're asking for, not blanket statements that we can't legitimately confirm.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I will ask ShiroyashaGinSan about the specifics, because I constantly checked across many different translators to see if the Kanji for sure meant double and not just a vague value, so if all that work and research was completely wrong, I’m gonna be mega sad

 

[AnonymousBlank]

But That's what I said tho...

I was talking to Strife but you posted in the meantime lol

I’d say just link the thread where Shiro translated it for you, Mitch.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I was talking to Strife but you posted in the meantime lol

I’d say just link the thread where Shiro translated it for you, Mitch.

https://vsbattles.com/conversations/kanji-translation.140/#convMessage-886

I mean like I said, he just posted the translations as Attack Power Multiplication, Defense Power Multiplication, and Speed Multiplication without specific details

I swear to god I know one of the Kanji meant double tho, so I’m just waiting to hear what he has to say about it

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

https://vsbattles.com/conversations/just-some-japanese-stuff.131/#convMessage-838

This is mine asking another user.

He also points out the specific kanji, and notes that one of them can only really mean double in said context, which refers to this Kanji.

Feel free to compare and check that the kanji is indeed in the Ile spells.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Vergil_Lucifer

https://vsbattles.com/conversations/just-some-japanese-stuff.131/#convMessage-838

This is mine asking another user.

He also points out the specific kanji, and notes that one of them can only really mean double in said context, which refers to this Kanji.

Feel free to compare and check that the kanji is indeed in the Ile spells.

See that’s what I’ve seen, because everywhere I checked, the Kanji behind the words meant specifically double and not some vague value

 

[AKM sama]

Yall linking to conversations smh

That stuff is private. Nobody else besides the participants can see it.

 

[AKM sama]

He also points out the specific kanji, and notes that one of them can only really mean double in said context, which refers to this Kanji.

I think the ambiguity stems from the fact that the same kanji also means "times" or "fold", in that link you provided. And maybe that's the reason why Shiro translated it as multiplication.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl Could you post a screen shot of the conversation where the person said it was double here

@AKM sama So the exact translation may vary then, I’ll ask someone else on the site I know who can translate Kanji

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Pfft, pardon. Haven't tried that yet so I didn't know it couldn't be seen by anyone else.

And yeah, which is why I inquired on this. The other person is @LehenDuo and he specified that in the specific context of that line, it could really only mean double.

Notice that the "double" or "two-fold" is when it is used as a Noun, while "-fold" or "times" is when you are counting in general. Check the japanese above the example of "That mountain is five times as high as this one." and you'll see there's a 5 right to the left of the 倍 Kanji. If it's being used as a noun, which seems to be the case as there's no other number so not used for counting in the Ile spells, the context would seem to imply it indeed means double.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Pfft, pardon. Haven't tried that yet so I didn't know it couldn't be seen by anyone else.

And yeah, which is why I inquired on this. The other person is @LehenDuo and he specified that in the specific context of that line, it could really only mean double.

Notice that the "double" or "two-fold" is when it is used as a Noun, while "-fold" or "times" is when you are counting in general. Check the japanese above the example of "That mountain is five times as high as this one." and you'll see there's a 5 right to the left of the 倍 Kanji.

So maybe Shiro got a different translation because he didn’t understand the full context? I’m checking with another translator just to be sure, this will be the 3rd person for me right now

I still think “Double” is accurate tho from all that I have seen

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't think he got it wrong, since the kanji is actually used for counting. But in both instances that I can see, a number is very clearly shown.

Again, the example of "That mountain is five times as high as this one.", the original Kanji being "あのやま山はこのやま山の５ばい倍のたか高さである。". You'll notice the bolded part is our kanji in question, with a 5 right besides. The other example, when it is used as in "1 in n" has the original kanji as "40倍", once more with the number right besides the kanji we are discussing, this one meaning "1 in 40".

"速度倍化イルバニーア" This is the original kanji of Ile Vernier, the speed one. You'll, again, notice there's no number. This seems about the same with "かれ彼はわたし私のばい倍た食べた", which translates to "He ate twice as much as I did.", which is meant to show the meaning of the Kanji when used as a noun.

Therefore, from the comment of Lehen and comparisons, it seems pretty clear to me that the kanji is being used as a noun, which is when it is meant to signify "double/two-fold".

Though anyone that knows japanese can say if I am wrong in my assumption.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't think he got it wrong, since the kanji is actually used for counting. But in both instances that I can see, a number is very clearly shown.

Again, the example of "That mountain is five times as high as this one.", the original Kanji being "あのやま山はこのやま山の５ばい倍のたか高さである。". You'll notice the bolded part is our kanji in question, with a 5 right besides. The other example, when it is used as in "1 in n" has the original kanji as "40倍", once more with the number right besides the kanji we are discussing, this one meaning "1 in 40".

"速度倍化イルバニーア" This is the original kanji of Ile Vernier, the speed one. You'll, again, notice there's no number. This seems about the same with "かれ彼はわたし私のばい倍た食べた", which translates to "He ate twice as much as I did.", which is meant to show the meaning of the Kanji when used as a noun.

Therefore, from the comment of Lehen and comparisons, it seems pretty clear to me that the kanji is being used as a noun, which is when it is meant to signify "double/two-fold".

Though anyone that knows japanese can say if I am wrong in my assumption.

Double does seem to be make more sense in the context as it would be used as a Noun, so this seems to make sense to me, however once again, I'm not a fluent speaker and wouldn't know for sure

 

[Damage3245]

Are you sure that it doesn't mean "Double the original spell"? I'm not an expert on Japanese myself, so I can't say what the intention was behind it, but what if we're getting it a little wrong?

What if it means something like this?:

Vernier = Speed Boost

Ile Vernier = Double the Speed Boost.

So not literally doubling the speed of the caster, but doubling the boost they would have gotten from the ordinary version of Vernier.

This is the interpretation that the Fairy Tail Wiki has of the spell, and I'd like to know how exactly they arrived at that conclusion and whether it is correct.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It should still be at least 2x then, if that's what it is. If it's doubling the original effect, that's gonna be at least 2x regardless of what multiplier the base enchantment is, even if it's as low as 1.00000001x (unless then multiplier is a decimal less than 1 which makes literally zero sense)

However, I really don't know how they arrived at that conclusion.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Are you sure that it doesn't mean "Double the original spell"? I'm not an expert on Japanese myself, so I can't say what the intention was behind it, but what if we're getting it a little wrong?

What if it means something like this?:

Vernier = Speed Boost

Ile Vernier = Double the Speed Boost.

So not literally doubling the speed of the caster, but doubling the boost they would have gotten from the ordinary version of Vernier.

This is the interpretation that the Fairy Tail Wiki has of the spell, and I'd like to know how exactly they arrived at that conclusion and whether it is correct.

Nope, that's not it at all as I have addressed before on the main discussion thread, the Kanji for the normal Arms, Armor, and Vernier doesn't mean Attack Power, Defense Power, and Speed at all, the kanji aren't the same as the ones in Ile Spells, the Kanji for the Ile Spells never refer to the original spell names

So assuming that it is doubling the effects of the those spells isn't accurate, I don't know where the Fairy Tail Wiki got that idea from

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't believe so, Damage. Let me copy and paste what Lehen told me.

"イルアーマー
So, this part is ''Iru Aamaa''

Ama is the common katakana for Armor
Iru ... Not sure

防御 - compounded kanji for ''Defense''
力 - ryoku, the same as in Maryoku of Nasuverse; strength/power/force/capacity
倍 - double
化 - change, enchant

The second part is probably the ruby text correct?
For the Kanji only: Defense Power Doubling Enchantment, or Defense Power Enchantment Times Two or something like that. The concept is pretty straightforward, ''the capacity to double the power of defense'', but don't know how to translate it in a way that seems nice."

 

[LordGinSama]

It's worth noting that in the official English translation no such figure is given. Even Arms is just stated to make them "more powerful Also the speed gained from Vernier doesn't seem to be very impressive either

And when she enhanced her guild with the same attack she sure as hell didn't make them twice as fast against Hades. The actual portrayal of the amp is a lot less than the supposed figure.


I also find using the name of a spell is iffy, Vegeta's Big Bang Attack isn't 3-A solely due to the meaning or the name of the attack. I don't recall a singular instance of any of these spells legitimately being shown as being twice as effective under any circumstance.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's true, but we're referring to the Ile variations here, not the base versions. I have no idea how the FT Wiki arrived at the idea of the Ile spells being 2x the base spells.