Fairy Tail Dragon Force and FDKM Multiplier Revision

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Whelp, let's start this series of CRT's strong my friends

This is a rather simple but controversial change, but transformations such as Dragon Force and Fire Dragon King Mode are actually an “At least 4x Multiplier” to Attack Power and Durability instead of a “2x Multiplier” while Dragon Force alone is also a “At least 4x Multiplier” to Speed

We know that Wendy’s Enchantments, such as her Ile Spells double her stats, for example, the actual meaning behind the kanji of Ile Arms is as follows...

The first 2 characters being 攻 and 撃 translate to attack and offense, and the 3rd character 力 translates to force, strength, and might, putting the first 3 characters put together literally translates to "Offensive ability or attack", the last 2 characters put together being 倍化 literally translates to double or twice the amount of something, so putting everything together literally translates to "Double or twice the Offensive Ability or Attack", the same applies to Ile Armor and Ile Vernier, with both meaning double durability and speed, so this means that her Ile Spells double all of her stats

Her other Enchantments, Deus Eques and Deus Corona are an amp to all her stats greater than her Ile Spells, Deus, literally meaning “God” signifies a High Enchantment on a superior level to basic Enchantments such as the Ile Spells, Irene says as much with Deus Zero and Deus Sema, this is supported by Wendy deciding to use Deus Eques and Deus Corona over her Ile Spells from X792 onwards against powerful foes such as Irene and Acnologia, because they are a stronger amp of power, so that means Deus Eques and Deus Corona are superior amp in stats to the Ile Spells, meaning that these Enchantments are at least a 2x Amp to all stats as well

In her fight with Ezel, Wendy stacked Deus Eques, Deus Corona, and all of her Ile Spells on top of each other, effectively meaning Wendy Enchanted all of her stats by at least 4x, this increase of power didn’t do any damage at all against Ezel’s Base Form, she literally kicked him in the face and he took no damage, with these Enchantments she was also getting outsped by Base Ezel, however her Dragon Force amped her enough that she was able to overpower and defeat Etherious Form Ezel, as well as blitz him, meaning Dragon Force as an amp to all stats is far above Deus Eques, Deus Corona, and all of her Ile Spells on top of each other

This is fully supported by two statements, the first is that Gajeel’s Iron Dragon Scales increase his attack power by several times and Dragon Force is way above that buff, and the second is that Wendy’s defense increased several times over with all of her Enchantments, several as a quantity usually refers to 3 or 4, supporting the 4x Multiplier with two statements

So we know for sure that Dragon Force and Fire Dragon King Mode, which is another transformation shown to be comparable and possibly even superior to the average Dragon Force as an increase, is at the very least an “At least 4x Multiplier” to Attack Power and Durability, however Dragon Force alone is also a “At least 4x Multiplier” to Speed

EDIT: Also as everyone has said, Natsu's Dragon Force is very different from everyone's elses, he is consistently shown to have a Dragon Force that progressively gets stronger as the series goes on and that is explained by GS Aldoron that he has absorbed and adpated the powers of all the Dragons he has encountered in the past, Natsu's DF got buffed to 6-A and High 6-A because he kept the properties of Ignia's Power, so this thread is about addressing the bare minimum increase an average Dragon Force like Wendy's, Gajeel's, Sting's, and Rogue's would give, so any argument that is used to counter this revision that involves Natsu's Dragon Force is not valid

Agree with proposal: 17 (DemonGodMitchAubin, Nerd1435, Zackra1799, LSirLancelotDuLacl, SenseiKeleon, AnonymousBlank, Zencha9, DragonGamerZ913, Sigurd Snake in the Eye, Mr. Cinos15, Ah Gou, Wrath of Itachi, LordGinSama, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, Schnee One, AKM Sama)

Disagree with proposal:

Neutral with proposal: 1 (Damage3245)

Unclear: 1 (Davidsteel1 [Doesn't like multipliers in general, but he hasn't give a clear disagreement])

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I disagree with these multipliers. Natsu goes from 6-C to High 6-A with said multiplier which is far more than a 4x boost. And trying to use 4x as a low ball to get this multiplier is just dishonest and an excuse to get an upgrade for the verse. You also said in a previous thread that there is much more evidence for 3x, so I'm not sure why you are trying to push 4x. Anyway, I think this DF multiplier should be removed from use.

 

[Damage3245]

I recall there being a discussion over there being more evidence for a 3x boost. Wasn't there a statement from Natsu to this effect?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Yeah, there was.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I am going for 4x because I believe it has the evidence, once again, 3x is also valid as a low-end, I just think 3x is a lowball

I'm just gonna let this CRT simmer tho, I know we just got back in and a lot of people want to participate, so we don't need to rush it

 

[LordGinSama]

3x is the end we'd go with, when the term "several" is used we typically use 3x rather than 4x, prime case being Luffy's Gear Fourth multiplier. At best I'd suggest an "at least" at the end of whatever Natsu's tier is.



However I disagree with applying the multiplier to the speed, his speed does increase but there's no proof to say that the figure also applies to his speed rather than strength. And by reading the OP Wendy's speed isn't increased, only her AP and Defense are.

 

[Nerd1435]

However I disagree with applying the multiplier to the speed, his speed does increase but there's no proof to say that the figure also applies to his speed rather than strength.

Uh you sure you've read the post?

 

[LordGinSama]

Uh you sure you've read the post?

Yes and nowhere is it stated that their speed increases to that figure as well.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yes and nowhere is it stated that their speed increases to that figure as well.

In the OP, I said that Ile Vernier and Deus Eques respectively both double Wendy's speed, and yet Dragon Force made her faster still

 

[LordGinSama]

They cleary don't double her speed, the figure is never stated and the fact that she quite literally, isn't moving any faster is proof that she doesn't become 4x faster.


It's also supported by Wendy stating that she only increased her magic defensive, not her speed.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

They cleary don't double her speed, the figure is never stated and the fact that she quite literally, isn't moving any faster is proof that she doesn't become 4x faster.


It's also supported by Wendy stating that she only increased her magic defensive, not her speed.

Did you read the OP...

I quite literally explain why her speed gets amped as well, the literal meaning behind Ile Vernier is actually "Double Speed" and Deus Eques being an Amp to all physical abilities would refer to speed as well

 

[Zackra1799]

I disagree with these multipliers. Natsu goes from 6-C to High 6-A with said multiplier which is far more than a 4x boost. And trying to use 4x as a low ball to get this multiplier is just dishonest and an excuse to get an upgrade for the verse. You also said in a previous thread that there is much more evidence for 3x, so I'm not sure why you are trying to push 4x. Anyway, I think this DF multiplier should be removed from use.

That's exactly what it is, a lowball.

In other words the lowest possible multiplier DF could provide.

DF is shown and stated to be at least vastly above these 3x to 4x amps

there's a 3x to 4x AP and Dura statement from Gajeel, the direct kanji translations from Wendy's enchants being 4x to stats and DF scaling above a 3x to 4x statement, as well as multiple feats such as DF Natsu blitzing Etherious Mard Geer, Wendy being blitzed by Ezel then blitzing him with DF, and DF Gajeel blitzing Bloodman.

However I disagree with applying the multiplier to the speed, his speed does increase but there's no proof to say that the figure also applies to his speed rather than strength. And by reading the OP Wendy's speed isn't increased, only her AP and Defense are.

The fact that almost every time DF has come up it has resulted in a blitz, and DF Wendy scaling above her combined enchantments self, which increased her speed by 4x, and did better against a character that was faster than said enchanted Wendy say otherwise.

 

[LordGinSama]

Via scaling to previous spells, one's that don't work. Her previous spells were solely amps for her speed, and another one being for her AP. And may I see the proof of Ile Vernier translating into "double the speed"? Because you have yet to provide citation, just a blanket statement.


Even with that being said, her speed very clearly wasn't effected by her spells, she quite literally didn't go any faster than what she was previously.

 

[LordGinSama]

> The fact that almost every time DF has come up it has resulted in a blitz, and DF Wendy scaling above her combined enchantments self, which increased her speed by 4x, and did better against a character that was faster than said enchanted Wendy say otherwise



She didn't even blitz him, he was still able to keep track of her literally the moment after she "vanished" and Natsu didn't blitz Anco despite going into the amp, he didn't blitz Zeref, etc.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Via scaling to previous spells, one's that don't work. Her previous spells were solely amps for her speed, and another one being for her AP. And may I see the proof of Ile Vernier translating into "double the speed"? Because you have yet to provide citation, just a blanket statement.


Even with that being said, her speed very clearly wasn't effected by her spells, she quite literally didn't go any faster than what she was previously.

I'm baffled, I seriously believe you didn't read my post at all, I literally explained how the Kanji behind each and everyone of the Ile Spells translates to double a certain stat, Ile Arms doubles Attack Power, Ile Armor doubles Durability, and Ile Vernier doubles Speed

 

[LordGinSama]

Mitch, read the OP that you yourself made. You gave this translation.

> The first 2 characters being 攻 and 撃 translate to attack and offense, and the 3rd character 力 translates to force, strength, and might, putting the first 3 characters put together literally translates to "Offensive ability or attack", the last 2 characters put together being 倍化 literally translates to double or twice the amount of something, so putting everything together literally translates to "Double or twice the Offensive Ability or Attack", the same applies to Ile Armor and Ile Vernier, with both meaning double durability and speed.




There's nothing about speed here, you said offensive ability, attack and defensive. Nothing about speed.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

You can't just pick the lowest possible value to use when it can be up to thousands of times higher, that's called an inconsistency.

 

[senseikeleon]

When did Natsu go from 6C to 6A with DF wasn’t that with The flames of emotion and his 7 fire dragon power ups??

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"The same applies to Ile Armor and Ile Vernier"

I didn't think it was necesarry to go through each and every Kanji as they are pretty much the same fundamentally, each one means "Double" followed by the stat

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

You can't just pick the lowest possible value to use when it can be up to thousands of times higher, that's called an inconsistency.

It's called a lowballed multiplier, the amp is "At least 4x", opening it up to be way higher, I know you're biased against Multipliers in general tho

 

[LordGinSama]

"The same applies to Ile Armor and Ile Vernier"

I didn't think it was necesarry to go through each and every Kanji as they are pretty much the same fundamentally, each one means "Double" followed by the stat

In a CRT it's absolutely necessary and to be frank I'm not sure about these translations. I'd trust them a lot more if they were translated by someone actually familiar with the language, not to be rude.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Would have to agree with Mitch on this one. The wording of the kanji is very direct, the fact that she stacked double buffs, with Deus being a bigger increase than the Ile ones, which would as a lowball come to 4x, and then outdid all that when she went dragon force.

That seems pretty indicate.

Not to mention, there are pages to genuinely look up kanji. Unless it was something complicated and with nuance and context to account for, those should be entirely okay to use.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

He uses it against Aldoron in 100y quest.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

When did Natsu go from 6C to 6A with DF wasn’t that with The flames of emotion and his 7 fire dragon power ups??

I think they're talking about the DF Natsu showcased against Aldoron

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

In a CRT it's absolutely necessary and to be frank I'm not sure about these translations. I'd trust them a lot more if they were translated by someone actually familiar with the language, not to be rude.

I mean I can't 100% prove this to you, but I did in fact ask someone who spoke the language what the exact meaning behind the Kanji as well as use a Kanji translator myself, I even chose to specifically go by each character to specify exactly what the meaning means

 

[LordGinSama]

And against Zeref.

 

[Zackra1799]

She didn't even blitz him, he was still able to keep track of her literally the moment after she "vanished" and Natsu didn't blitz Anco despite going into the amp, he didn't blitz Zeref, etc.

FH Zeref and Acno are god Tiers while x792 DF Natsu isn't which instantly makes that argument fall apart.

The only time he hit Wendy was when he powered through one of Wendy's attacks. He couldn't keep track of her at all nor could he avoid any of her attacks once she went DF.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I don't like multipliers because they massively inflate calcs, and cause wank.

 

[LordGinSama]

FH Zeref and Acno are god Tiers while x792 DF Natsu isn't which instantly makes that argument fall apart.

The only time he hit Wendy was when he powered through one of Wendy's attacks. He couldn't keep track of her at all nor could he avoid any of her attacks once she went DF.

Natsu in DF and 7DF mode scales to both of these characters, so no it doesn't.



Not being able to dodge but his reactions were still enough to keep track of her, hell he even transformed while being attacked by her. So he would have needed to react to the speed of her attack, which makes it inconsistent.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't like multipliers because they massively inflate calcs, and cause wank.

This isn't a massive inflation tho, it's just a minor fix that's more accurate, the current 2x is less accurate than 4x, it doesn't even massively change the AP at all, I just thought that it needed to be clarified as a better multiplier, the only thing that majorly gets effected would be speed, which will get a separate CRT after this one is finished at a later date

 

[Davidsteel1]

Mm, I thought we had a conversation on the kanji translations a while back?
Either way, my stance on multipliers I think is clear. They are unreliable and should only be used in certain circumstances and I do not believe this qualifies as one of said circumstances.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't like multipliers because they massively inflate calcs, and cause wank.

"I don't like" is no form of solid argument, though.

DB has stupid big scaling chains because of it, but unless someone sensibly refutes the logic behind them, they are entirely usable. This should be no different.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

It's not "Massively" but it is a big jump in power, and I still don't see why 4x is even being discussed when you yourself said it has more evidence. Anyway, I'm still against it. I suppose you should get some staff members to take a look.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Mm, I thought we had a conversation on the kanji translations a while back?
Either way, my stance on multipliers I think is clear. They are unreliable and should only be used in certain circumstances and I do not believe this qualifies as one of said circumstances.

Can you please give more reasoning as to why you disagree?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

"I don't like" is no form of solid argument, though.

DB has stupid big scaling chains because of it, but unless someone sensibly refutes the logic behind them, they are entirely usable. This should be no different.

There are inconsistent showings using these multipliers which has already been brought up.

 

[senseikeleon]

@Wrath_Of_Itachi
Right but we know DF can Vary between people as in the case of the 5th Gen dragon slayers 3x-4x is the lowball as we know DF is at least that strong but it could be higher

with Natsu VS Aldoron his DF was clearly different Natsu had used DF like a total of like 5 times in the original series and each of those 5 times he wasn’t Abel mix the flames of dragons he has encountered But with his battle with Aldoron he was able to do so and use a new secret art spell that he hadn’t used before

And idk if this is possible but maybe it’s possible Natsu’s DF had some demonic influence from his END powers as Aldoron was Abel to tell Natsu was not only a human but the son of a dragon and also a demon despite Natsu not revealing his identity or his biology to Aldoron

 

[Zackra1799]

Natsu in DF and 7DF mode scales to both of these characters, so no it doesn't.



Not being able to dodge but his reactions were still enough to keep track of her, hell he even transformed while being attacked by her. So he would have needed to react to the speed of her attack, which makes it inconsistent.

DF + 7DF mode has one feat of oneshoting Acno, while he couldn't move so Natsu's speed there didn't matter once again SDFM Natsu was being blitzed by this Acno before hand so again irrelevant.

No it isn't he was already inside the attack and just powered through the damage that he took to negate it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

These have inconsistent showing using these multipliers which has already been brought up.

But you continue to ignore that the multiplier is an "At least" buff, it can be a higher multiplier, we are addressing that, the fact is that DF should be a minimum increase of at least 4x

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Could I ask what are said inconsistent showings?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

You yourself just admitted that it varies with each person, so throwing it as a solid multiplier for every DF user is just wrong and just adds to the inconsistency of it.