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EoS Altair (Re:Creators) vs. Anos Voldigoad

Staff gave approval in the thread, and it was supposed to be removed a long time ago and has already been removed from P & A section.

The only problem was that the notable abilities section still listed it as passive, whch it shouldn't have, and is just a mistake on the part of whoever was supposed to delete the words "passive" from her profile.

Edit:

The primary supporter of the verse, who agreed that it isn't passive, was actually a pretty high ranking staff member at the time.
 
Then that should be fine. Just link this thread when you make that edit in edit summary

also link the other thread in this thread
 
Regardless, this would still end in a stomp.

Anos is High-Godly in terms of regen; and he has type 4 acausality, so her causality manipulation wouldn't work eve if it was passive.
 
YungManzi said:
This has actually never been brought up before in a thread and isn't currently an accepted power of hers.
Click to expand...
I know which is why I wanted to clarify to everyone about it. A new thread MAY come soon that would address some stuff about her. She will lose stuffs like 2-B immortality, etc. but it will all be discussed over there.
 
Now that one's a stretch.

The other one I might get on board with as long as it's specified to be non-combat applicable. But giving all creations type 4 acausality for breaking from their stories?

No bueno.
 
That's just an appeal to Incredulity, not an actual counter. You not believing something is irrelevant with what's given and shown. Especially since the show itself showcases characters being seperated from their Narratives, stating to be unbound by the events of their stories, and still being affected by Altair.

But like I said, I'll probably create a new thread in the future to address a bunch of stuffs including these as well.
 
"That's just an appeal to Incredulity, not an actual counter."

I wasn't trying to make a counter because I wasn't trying to derail the thread... It's not Incredulity, because I didn't say "They aren't type 4, because I don't think they're type 4." I simply stated that I disagreed.

But, seeing as this is a stomp thread anyway and you responded with an argument... You want reasons? I'll tell you my reasons.


They are indeed unbound by their stories, because they are now bound by the causality of the real world, which is why they're getting nerfed by the laws of the universe. Even the "Unbound by the yoke of their stories" point isn't completely true because of the entire final act revolving around their stories being changed to change the public's perception of them and thereby change them (Therefore they are indeed still influenced by the plot of their stories); and outline Origin working against any of them at all works majorly against this point.

How are they unbound by the yoke of their story, but Altair can reset them to their original forms in the story? I guess Altair's powers all work on type 4 acausality, or maybe, it's a statement that's massively inconsistent with the rest of the story and shouldn't be taken as anything more than a bit of flowery language and/or outlier.


In addition to having said all of that, being unbound by the yoke of their story means nothing as they are literally in the real world now. It'd be like saying DBS characters have type 4 acausality for being unbound by the causality of their universe when they were in the tournament of power.
 
I haven't seen Re: Creators in years, so maybe they do really have this with added context, I just think there's more evidence against it than for it as of now.
 
"I wasn't trying to make a counter because I wasn't trying to derail the thread... It's not Incredulity, because I didn't say "They aren't type 4, because I don't think they're type 4." I simply stated that I disagreed."
Click to expand...


What you said does come off as a counter to my argument without even providing reasons for why you disagreed. This just defaults that you are simply disagreeing based on personal beliefs. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this was just simple disagreement.


"They are indeed unbound by their stories, because they are now bound by the causality of the real world, which is why they're getting nerfed by the laws of the universe. Even the "Unbound by the yoke of their stories" point isn't completely true because of the entire final act revolving around their stories being changed to change the public's perception of them and thereby change them (Therefore they are indeed still influenced by the plot of their stories); and outline Origin working against any of them at all works majorly against this point."
Click to expand...


This works under the pre-supposition that the Causality of the Real World is the same as that of the Storyworlds, which obviously isn't the case. Especially since the Real World's causality system is completely different from all the Fictional universes. Why do I say so? Because the Real World is the original Universe which created and established all the other Universes in the verse including their future, fate, concepts, etc. Furthermore, the Real World can create Retcons or changes in the past of the Storyworlds itself. Whatever happened, is happening, and will happen in the Storyworlds is all present in the Real World. But let's say for Arguments sake that both causal laws of Real and Story worlds are the same. Getting nerfed by the Real World's law is not a counterpoint to Acausality either since you can be any type (1, 2, 3 or 4) of Acausal and still be affected by Laws. Otherwise, any type 4 Acausals can bypass Law Haxes. On top of that, Guidebooks repeatedly state that the Characters have transcended their Plot. So it's not really helping your case.

And no. Their stories weren't changed to change the perceptions of the public. Spin-offs were created where the characters were given power boost and made to be accepted by the Audience. This audience approval caused the creations to get new powers similar to how Selesia got her powers in Episode 10 even though it was for a moment. It had nothing to do with being bound by plot since only the collective beliefs of the Audience gave them the powers (Something which is Conceptual and that I will elaborate on my upcoming thread). Also, Outline Origin working against them isn't a counterintuitive either. That's like saying since Sonic's fatehax works on him, therefore he isn't Acausal. Or how Desperado's fate Hax works on Acausals like themselves, thus they aren't Acausals to begin with. Bypassing Acausality isn't an uncommon feat in fiction.


"How are they unbound by the yoke of their story, but Altair can reset them to their original forms in the story? I guess Altair's powers all work on type 4 acausality, or maybe, it's a statement that's massively inconsistent with the rest of the story and shouldn't be taken as anything more than a bit of flowery language and/or outlier."
Click to expand...

Already specified above. Bypassing Acausality isn't an uncommon feat. Something that bunch of Characters in the Website has.

"In addition to having said all of that, being unbound by the yoke of their story means nothing as they are literally in the real world now. It'd be like saying DBS characters have type 4 acausality for being unbound by the causality of their universe when they were in the tournament of power."
Click to expand...


False Equivalency. DBS Characters have simply been teleported to a realm that clearly has the same timeflow as that of the universes (since the entirety of Ribrianna's universe can follow the TOP fight from their universe). Nothing about them being seperated from causality is stated UNLIKE in Re:Creators, where you have statements from both the series and the guidebook that state Creations being unbound/transcendental to their Narratives while also showcasing how both the Real World Causality and Storyworlds Causality are entirely different.
 
At most this is acausality type 1 since their past in their story does not affect them. Them being unbound by their story doesn't give them any more than that they are not unbound from normal causality for example.
 
all these comments are not even related to the match but rather to 1 specific character, if u wanna upgrade Altair go and make a CRT for that

that being said Anos stomps
 
Transcending Narrative Causality is Type 4. Freely changing their own stories' past or future doesn't really affect them at all and it was a major plot point in the series (For which the whole Audience Acceptance thing was introduced).
 
Yeah specifically their own story not that of the real world. As far as I can tell based on what was posted to they have been freed from the story written about them. But they do not exist on another causality like type 4 suggests. They still follow the causality of the real world.
 
Already addressed the whole "Existing in the Causality of the Real World" thing in response to YungManzi's comment. Since this whole thing is confusing people, I'll address this too fully in the upcoming thread.

And Type 4 is just a different Causality than a normal one. There's no specifics on what that is in actuality. Statements of Transcending Causality (or Laws depending on the Context) is enough for a character to get them at least Type 4 assuming it's not a hyperbole or flowery language type thing.
 
I know you did and it did not exactly contradict what either he nor I said. In fact rather it seems to tie in with what I said. Yeah sure a better explanation would be in order since honestly nothing you said in this thread is very convincing.

I know what type 4 is, it just doesnt seem to apply here. But yeah I would wait for the thread.

As for this thread I guess if it is not a stomp then Anos FRA.
 
What I said contradicts entirely with what you both said since both your arguments are based on two main pre-suppositions, which are:-

a) Characters following the Causality of the Real World
b) Real World has the same Causality system as the Storyworlds.

For the first one, where is the proof that the characters follow the Causality of the Real World? If your reasoning is something like "They exist in the Real World, therefore they must follow the Causality of the Real World", then it's just a Non-Sequiter. I already provided multiple scans of how the characters were stated to Transcend the Narrative Causalities, not simply transported into the Real World. That by default makes them a Type 4 Acausal unless there's anything stated that they are bound by the Real World. And I didn't even point out how characters were affecting the Laws of the Real World by their mere presence in the Real World while also being stated to be existences that contradicts the Laws of the Real World which was a major factor that was causing the destruction of the world.

Edit: Just to make it clear, Storyworlds are legit parallel Universes. Not simply stories. If the latter was the case, then I wouldn't be arguing anything here.

As for the second one, I already pointed out how the Real World's Causal system is completely different than that of the Storyworlds. But that's irrelevant here since I already said that the Characters were opposing the laws of the Real World itself. But I digress, this discussion is just ad nauseum and it'll be better if I explain better in an upcoming thread.
 
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