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Ellimist and Crayak upgrade/Q downgrade/10-D vs. 26-D difference/help?
- Thread starter Yukaphile
- Start date
- 821
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- Thread starter
- #50
Q now needs to be High 2-A, right, Ultima Reality?
This leads to another question I'd had... do we even dare consider the possibility of marking the Enterprise-D at 2-A, realistically? I had argued to downgrade it months ago because I felt it was too high. But if we're gonna go high, then why not go all the way? Because see, remember how they had manipulated that space-time rift thing in "Parallels" that was what Data had termed as the "gateway" to all infinite possibilities across a quantum superposition state? You know, "the road not taken" where you made different choices? Wouldn't that make it a 2-A feat? I get that even if it is, it is probably an extreme outlier. But I also felt that so was putting the Enterprise-D at star levels in terms of power. So why not? Maybe we create a low-end figure, a mid-end figure, and a high-end figure? And 2-A would be the natural high-end. What do you guys make of all this?
This leads to another question I'd had... do we even dare consider the possibility of marking the Enterprise-D at 2-A, realistically? I had argued to downgrade it months ago because I felt it was too high. But if we're gonna go high, then why not go all the way? Because see, remember how they had manipulated that space-time rift thing in "Parallels" that was what Data had termed as the "gateway" to all infinite possibilities across a quantum superposition state? You know, "the road not taken" where you made different choices? Wouldn't that make it a 2-A feat? I get that even if it is, it is probably an extreme outlier. But I also felt that so was putting the Enterprise-D at star levels in terms of power. So why not? Maybe we create a low-end figure, a mid-end figure, and a high-end figure? And 2-A would be the natural high-end. What do you guys make of all this?
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Well, Aeyu is unbanned. She could give her two cents about this if she wanted to.
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- Thread starter
- #56
Because again, subspace has an infinite number of dimensions, and if the mods were unhappy with Ellimist being brought to High 1-C because the extra six dimensions in 10-D curve back into themselves, the same equally applies to Q too, since 18 dimensions in 26-D curve back into themselves in the episode it came from.
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So string theory is also a thing in Ellimist's verse, that's nice. I suppose 18 is the best found in ST, then again the Nexus transcends the concept of space and time which the Q is responsible for. But taken into the consideration of the tiering revision that kinda thing probably would not hold much water anymore.
And yes, space time manipulation is hax
And yes, space time manipulation is hax
- 821
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- Thread starter
- #62
Wasn't it agreed earlier that Q should be downgraded, by a mod? I'm confused. Lemme run all this down.
Nexus is pretty much just a ribbon flying through space, as presented. There's no indication if it is a higher dimension at all, merely that it "intersects the past and future," as shown from behind-the-scenes materials. That could indicate time travel, of some sort.
The "other 18" are what Barclay and the holodeck Einstein discuss, did you not see the point I'd raised? That the very objection the mods used for why the Ellimist is not 10-D, because six of those dimensions cancel each other out, can be equally applied to Q, because that is where the idea comes from. It's never said subspace has "26 dimensions" either, merely that it's like an "infinite honeycomb" as described by Geordi. And Barclay had proposed the 26-D concept, to a holodeck character that found the idea appalling (26 dimensions intead of 10 dimensions), until Barclay said, via his alien-enhanced genius, that if you "did this and so on and so," then the other dimensions would cancel each other out. And also consider this. Q's space-time hax is pretty hard to gauge, like... is it a localized feat, or a universal feat? He can travel back in time prior to the Big Bang, though it seemed more like the "moments" prior to the Big Bang than before it by any serious length of "time." So it is an assumption that Q is superior to something like, say, the antimatter universe from TOS. How do we know that Q doesn't have a counterpart there? He probably is superior to the Mirror Universe or the quantum superposition state that intersects all infinite possibilities by our choices that are taken elsewhere. But how do we know for sure? It is never stated or shown.
I also wanna note another thing here, is that Nagillum is rated quite high, merely for existing in a void that is the "absence of everything." But what does that mean? Why is he 1-B and not 2-A? Though Q traveling back prior to the Big Bang is proof that he is probably superior to Nagillum via feats. Since he was existing in the "absence of everything" as well.
As I'd said, Nagillum, the Q, the Prophets, and all other omnipotent beings never interact, so scaling them off one another past the EU is tricky, and the EU is not canon, never was. At least Legends had layers of canon and is now a past continuity and an era. The Star Trek EU never even had that. In the actual canon of TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, plus anything made since (which include the reboot movies and DISCO), there is no interactions for them to gauge, and we go purely by feats, yes? Look at what Trelane did, moved his planet into the path of the Enterprise, and yet he was shown to be a child. And yet, how powerful is he compared to the Prophets? It's never shown, because they never interact. Or the Douwd? Kevin wiped out a whole species, and yet it's never shown here, but he was shown to create ships out of nothing that could attack an enemy, yet he seemed to have clear limits. He could not revive somebody who was dead. It also seemed he could not time travel, or he'd have brought his wife back. So he probably committed xenocide via a single thought in a single instance in time across a whole region of space, which is what the episode implies. Also, it's noted that Q can revive the dead? But, we only literally have Q's word, a known liar, for bringing Picard back to life. How do we know that he didn't just snatch him back prior to death, or was changing time?
Despite what it might seem like, especially given my past history, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand the way the mods are thinking here. And a debate is good for growth via a dialogue.
Nexus is pretty much just a ribbon flying through space, as presented. There's no indication if it is a higher dimension at all, merely that it "intersects the past and future," as shown from behind-the-scenes materials. That could indicate time travel, of some sort.
The "other 18" are what Barclay and the holodeck Einstein discuss, did you not see the point I'd raised? That the very objection the mods used for why the Ellimist is not 10-D, because six of those dimensions cancel each other out, can be equally applied to Q, because that is where the idea comes from. It's never said subspace has "26 dimensions" either, merely that it's like an "infinite honeycomb" as described by Geordi. And Barclay had proposed the 26-D concept, to a holodeck character that found the idea appalling (26 dimensions intead of 10 dimensions), until Barclay said, via his alien-enhanced genius, that if you "did this and so on and so," then the other dimensions would cancel each other out. And also consider this. Q's space-time hax is pretty hard to gauge, like... is it a localized feat, or a universal feat? He can travel back in time prior to the Big Bang, though it seemed more like the "moments" prior to the Big Bang than before it by any serious length of "time." So it is an assumption that Q is superior to something like, say, the antimatter universe from TOS. How do we know that Q doesn't have a counterpart there? He probably is superior to the Mirror Universe or the quantum superposition state that intersects all infinite possibilities by our choices that are taken elsewhere. But how do we know for sure? It is never stated or shown.
I also wanna note another thing here, is that Nagillum is rated quite high, merely for existing in a void that is the "absence of everything." But what does that mean? Why is he 1-B and not 2-A? Though Q traveling back prior to the Big Bang is proof that he is probably superior to Nagillum via feats. Since he was existing in the "absence of everything" as well.
As I'd said, Nagillum, the Q, the Prophets, and all other omnipotent beings never interact, so scaling them off one another past the EU is tricky, and the EU is not canon, never was. At least Legends had layers of canon and is now a past continuity and an era. The Star Trek EU never even had that. In the actual canon of TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, plus anything made since (which include the reboot movies and DISCO), there is no interactions for them to gauge, and we go purely by feats, yes? Look at what Trelane did, moved his planet into the path of the Enterprise, and yet he was shown to be a child. And yet, how powerful is he compared to the Prophets? It's never shown, because they never interact. Or the Douwd? Kevin wiped out a whole species, and yet it's never shown here, but he was shown to create ships out of nothing that could attack an enemy, yet he seemed to have clear limits. He could not revive somebody who was dead. It also seemed he could not time travel, or he'd have brought his wife back. So he probably committed xenocide via a single thought in a single instance in time across a whole region of space, which is what the episode implies. Also, it's noted that Q can revive the dead? But, we only literally have Q's word, a known liar, for bringing Picard back to life. How do we know that he didn't just snatch him back prior to death, or was changing time?
Despite what it might seem like, especially given my past history, I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand the way the mods are thinking here. And a debate is good for growth via a dialogue.
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- Thread starter
- #64
Very true. As I'd said before, the Q have the best feats of any omnipotent beings, despite attempts to downplay ("they only blew up stars in their civil war!"). It's amazing to me. And yet, "The Q and the Grey" is a very bad episode, quality wise. But, it did give the Q a few good feats.
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Honestly, there's actually something deeper to that feat despite any attempts to downplay it. The Q weren't just blowing up stars, they were screwing up the Q Continuum and subspace to the point where nearby stars went supernova.
- FEMALE Q: Try to wrap your minuscule mind around this. These supernovas are actually caused by spatial disruptions within the Continuum, the result of the war. Now, each time a star implodes, a negative density false vacuum is created which actually sucks the surrounding matter into the Continuum.
- COLONEL Q: I'm afraid the time for diplomacy has passed, madam. If we don't end this war quickly, the damage to subspace will be irreversible.
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The 18-dimensional thing doesn't have anything to do with compactified dimensions or the 26-D statement, as far as I see, and the fact they directly intersect through the spacetime continuum seems to show that those are normal, uncompactified dimensions.
Q will also be High 2-A as a lowball based on that author statement, yeah. I even posted a draft made by Aeyu of how his profile will roughly look like.
Q will also be High 2-A as a lowball based on that author statement, yeah. I even posted a draft made by Aeyu of how his profile will roughly look like.
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Pardon the necro, but Q has a lot of unnecessary hax on his profile like water manipulation for transcending a universe made of water
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"possibly Magic (Via transcendence of the Megan universe, a universe where magic governened the laws of nature), Antimatter Manipulation (Via transcendence of the antimatter universe), and Fluid Manipulation (Via transcendence of Fluidic space, a separate universe/parallel dimension where space is entirely fluid)"
These shouldn't be powers, even if Q could hypothetically manipulate those universes it's not really a direct power and we don't do this with similar characters
These shouldn't be powers, even if Q could hypothetically manipulate those universes it's not really a direct power and we don't do this with similar characters
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Okay. I will unlock Q (Star Trek). Tell me here when you are done.
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Uhh... I thought this would need a little more discussion first? I want to remove it but I wanna see what ByAsura thinks first
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I agree.
By the way, any and all mentions of the 5th dimension are wrong on the profiles. The context is that Voyager entered a layer of subspace inhabited by beings made of light. One of the characters in the holodeck (an artificial simulation) wrongly described them as being from the 5th dimension because he's based off 50s or 60s era space opera villains.
By the way, any and all mentions of the 5th dimension are wrong on the profiles. The context is that Voyager entered a layer of subspace inhabited by beings made of light. One of the characters in the holodeck (an artificial simulation) wrongly described them as being from the 5th dimension because he's based off 50s or 60s era space opera villains.
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