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Rennala
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Elden Ring General Discussion
- Thread starter Chariot190
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I agree with Ovens. The game it's pretty clear with its statements regarding the stars as a whole, and assuming the feats regarding these things aren't indeed involving the real stars in the universe would be a really nonsense. Rennala's night, which it's stated to be conjured by her, it's one of the feats that are so much straightforward to not be considered.
Even with Radahn, while I agree with that he is also holding meteorites, assuming that he isn't holding the stars it's ridiculous honestly. Yes, we see the meteorites falling, but we can also see how in the sky the actual stars are starting to shine.
And btw...
Even with Radahn, while I agree with that he is also holding meteorites, assuming that he isn't holding the stars it's ridiculous honestly. Yes, we see the meteorites falling, but we can also see how in the sky the actual stars are starting to shine.
And btw...
That could be a solid argument, if we were talking about people. But the statements are directly saying that regarding knowledge (sorcery) and faith (incantation). These aren't some random people, but concepts themselves. Anyway, that's even more consistent with what I already stated and provided, exactly, the fact that the source of every incantation, the Elden Ring, is a metaphysical abstraction, and also, that incantations are indeed controlling the laws, such as regression and causality. Not only that, but also as I already showed, sorcery is the very nature of the cosmos, and the law that everything in the universe has to follow. So assuming it somehow doesn't mean literally what I'm saying is actually the speculation here.
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I think Elden Beast can rank quite high.
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I still think that the god tier could be Low 2C hahah.
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Ovens wanted me to comment but never said what to reply to so rip
Anyway I have to agree that saying all celestial stuff doesn't count is pretty bad, even ignoring the fact that that's very clearly the intended scale of the game and lore considering Rennala, Radahn, Ranni, Elden Beast whatever else
The main issue is there's not really anything supporting the conclusion of "no celestial stuff is real". If you're going with the angle of "Radahn had star statements but it was clearly a meteor so saying star=/=star and no stars are real", that's disingenuous because that's also one of the few times they specifically say "falling star" and not just star, and the falling star part was specifically in reference to the meteor shower, and especially the one that undoes the seal on Nokron, so you can still have an intepreation, like some above that he still stopped the stars, and the meteors were just also something he stopped, based on stars starting to shine or whatever
If you try to say "well Astel is called a star and clearly isn't star sized" he's also very explicitly a unique case, because he is said to be made of star dust or debris or whatever and not just an actual star, he also came from some void, and is a malformed creature in general. If all stars were like him and he wasn't the exception, the line about being made of the debris from them, and being malformed wouldn't make sense, because he'd be the norm in such a case, there wouldn't be stars to have the debris of, it'd just be Astels.
So with that said I'm not exactly sure what arguments could be made to assume all celestial statements just don't count
As for like, the direct showings, there's also not much against them, you'd just sorta have to assume they're fake with no reason behind it to dismiss the visual ones. You'd have to assume for Rennala, that Ranni was lying about it being Rennala's night, and it was some high end illusion that can kill people and perfectly replicate her mother which Ranni never decided to use on any threats prior to or after that, rather than just say it's Rennala doing it as explicitly stated, possibly after being rebirthed through the egg we see activate in the cutscene before she starts actually fighting us for real
Then for the Elden Beast or whatever, you'd have to assume that the creature explicitly stated in everything as far back as the trailer as being able to "control the stars", made by a being that quite possibly made the universe (or at least separated everything from One based on Hyetta's dialogue) just made an illusion or something because reasons. Then you'd have to assume the same level of "this is fake" for Ranni's ending, etc
The main issue with the stuff I said above is that none of them actually have any reason to say they're fake besides just, not thinking the rating is right, and kinda take more assumptions than just accepting them does
Now I'll proceed to continue playthrough 4 and ignore this thread again, good day
Anyway I have to agree that saying all celestial stuff doesn't count is pretty bad, even ignoring the fact that that's very clearly the intended scale of the game and lore considering Rennala, Radahn, Ranni, Elden Beast whatever else
The main issue is there's not really anything supporting the conclusion of "no celestial stuff is real". If you're going with the angle of "Radahn had star statements but it was clearly a meteor so saying star=/=star and no stars are real", that's disingenuous because that's also one of the few times they specifically say "falling star" and not just star, and the falling star part was specifically in reference to the meteor shower, and especially the one that undoes the seal on Nokron, so you can still have an intepreation, like some above that he still stopped the stars, and the meteors were just also something he stopped, based on stars starting to shine or whatever
If you try to say "well Astel is called a star and clearly isn't star sized" he's also very explicitly a unique case, because he is said to be made of star dust or debris or whatever and not just an actual star, he also came from some void, and is a malformed creature in general. If all stars were like him and he wasn't the exception, the line about being made of the debris from them, and being malformed wouldn't make sense, because he'd be the norm in such a case, there wouldn't be stars to have the debris of, it'd just be Astels.
So with that said I'm not exactly sure what arguments could be made to assume all celestial statements just don't count
As for like, the direct showings, there's also not much against them, you'd just sorta have to assume they're fake with no reason behind it to dismiss the visual ones. You'd have to assume for Rennala, that Ranni was lying about it being Rennala's night, and it was some high end illusion that can kill people and perfectly replicate her mother which Ranni never decided to use on any threats prior to or after that, rather than just say it's Rennala doing it as explicitly stated, possibly after being rebirthed through the egg we see activate in the cutscene before she starts actually fighting us for real
Then for the Elden Beast or whatever, you'd have to assume that the creature explicitly stated in everything as far back as the trailer as being able to "control the stars", made by a being that quite possibly made the universe (or at least separated everything from One based on Hyetta's dialogue) just made an illusion or something because reasons. Then you'd have to assume the same level of "this is fake" for Ranni's ending, etc
The main issue with the stuff I said above is that none of them actually have any reason to say they're fake besides just, not thinking the rating is right, and kinda take more assumptions than just accepting them does
Now I'll proceed to continue playthrough 4 and ignore this thread again, good day
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When based
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Nani
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Fiery Flame Tarnished burns the entire world in the Fiery Flame ending. Melina claims that she was gonna kill the Fiery Flame Tarnished
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Radahn's feat is meteors, comets, "shooting stars". Ranni's feat is actual stars and the like.
There really shouldn't be any argument about this, one is blatantly comets, one is blatantly starry night stuff.
There really shouldn't be any argument about this, one is blatantly comets, one is blatantly starry night stuff.
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If she can actually pull it off I'll be amazed.
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Flowery language remains flowery language regardless of the things it speaks of. We cannot ignore it because this is a fantastic world in a fantastic setting, to proclaim that as an inevitable argument doesn't sit right with me at all. Furthermore, while all of this is very nice to theorize about, it is just that- you are applying your reasoning to certain aspects of the story that, frankly, don't 1:1 line up with mine. Yours is an extremely VSBW-inspired point of view, where things nicely fit into the categories provided by the site. Mine is not.
The feats presented to me thus far are either of vastly lower scale than stated by the presenter (4-A shooting stars) or simply an extremely literal take of something I wouldn't presume to be taken exactly literally (Ranni's feat where she doesn't actually say she's moving stars and moons but rather people are saying she did).
So much of the cosmic shittery I'm being told is obvious and self-apparent is, frankly, so much gunk in a gutter.
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The feat presented to me is Ranni's, unless I was misinformed? I don't know of any dialogue from Rennala that would imply a greater feat, but then I don't think Ranni's does it either, so perhaps I missed some turbo esoteric lore where "culver" actually refers to "the ultimate heat death of the galaxy".
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Except Ranni's feat is not ostensibly a feat. You seem to be confusing the arguments and mashing 'em together.
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Wasn't even replying to you lad
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1. Celestial as a term is vague, so let me be clear: Radahn's feat is fine. It just isn't 4-A. If you're sitting there claiming them to be literal stars, then I am deeply disappointed by you. Furthermore, if you are ignoring the (actually fairly plentiful, for a Souls game) times where it does explicitly refer to stars as "falling stars", i.e., meteors, then we can also look at the damage caused by it- as is our protocol for KE feats. The impact site is also clearly not a star-sized impact site. So. Radahn did not do a single thing to the stars. No.
2. Ranni's feat isn't a feat. Her mentioning stars and moons not being on earth is not a feat. Thus no feat is actually had, unless we're using the moon visual in her cutscene to mean something- but nobody's really provided an argument for that, or proof of what that actually is, so here we are. "Rennala's night" means nothing without context. Context nobody seems willing to provide. This is all interpretation on the part of the VS Debating community. You are, yourself, assuming what it means, while condemning any other attempt to do so. So allow me to be clear: I do not assume Ranni re-created celestial objects. Never did. I don't even know why she would. Doesn't really make any sense. With Rom (Bloodborne, kinda tangential I know) at least the argument exists that it is something she's keeping back.
3. The Elden Beast also doesn't have a feat. It has many attacks that look visually like stars. The funny thing is we can actually be next to these. And see their scale. Which is clearly not on the scale of a star. I'd be interested to hear the specific phrasing you're referring to it with, since I've been told of things already that are bullshit. I do know its in-game lore describes it as a creature sent in a star- but we both know what this refers to. I must be honest, however, so there's a chance your argument for specifically the Elden Beast has credence- I don't know Hyetta's quest. I played blind and couldn't find her.
4. I didn't even mention Astel. I thought his lack of feats was self-evident. Not tons to say here. Dude just doesn't have anything.
5. Enjoy, homie. I hope you'll see reason.
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I dont know, these names are still confusing to me with all these bits of lore
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Yet it is relevant to what I am saying, no?
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Ah, all good. Then as far as I'm aware, the quote is for Ranni.
"Mine will be an order not of gold, but the stars and moon of the chill night.
I would keep them far from the earth beneath our feet. As it is now, life, and souls, and order are bound tightly together, but would have them at great remove.
And have the certainties of sight, emotion, faith, and touch... All become impossibilities.
Which is why I would abandon this soil, with mine order.
Wouldst thou come to me, even now, my one and only lord?"
This does not, to me, imply a celestial feat. It simply speaks of the cosmos. When we get to her ending, she says this instead:
"...The battle is over, I see.
To every living being, and every living soul.
Now cometh the age of the stars. A thousand year voyage under the wisdom of the Moon
Here beginneth the chill night that encompasses all, reaching the great beyond. Into fear, doubt, and loneliness... As the path stretcheth into darkness.
Well then. Shall we? My dear consort, eternal."
So based on actual context, my take is that she's simply wishing to explore the cosmos. Mentions of a voyage and a path sell it for me. At least that serves some purpose- the argument that she's just tossing shit around for no reason is strange to me.
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Oh wait, I'm not referring to that. I'm referring to "Rennala's" boss fight 2nd phase, where darkness looms over the area before its changed to an area with hundreds of stars in the background with a single moon there as well.
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Not really?
I'm just saying Radahn's shit is clearly meteorites (in fact doing some rough calcs I've been getting 7-C, 7-A combined).
And I'm saying Ranni or whatever the ****, whatever she's doing involves actual stars and not meteorites, whether you want to call it a feat or not, I don't care, I didn't even say she scales to whatever it is she's doing or if it's AP applicable, but whatever the **** she's doing, it blatantly involves actual stars and not at all like Radahn's.
I'm just saying my thoughts on the matter, I'm not replying to whatever it is you're arguing in particular.
I'm just saying Radahn's shit is clearly meteorites (in fact doing some rough calcs I've been getting 7-C, 7-A combined).
And I'm saying Ranni or whatever the ****, whatever she's doing involves actual stars and not meteorites, whether you want to call it a feat or not, I don't care, I didn't even say she scales to whatever it is she's doing or if it's AP applicable, but whatever the **** she's doing, it blatantly involves actual stars and not at all like Radahn's.
I'm just saying my thoughts on the matter, I'm not replying to whatever it is you're arguing in particular.
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Ah, right. I did address that, and also that is Ranni, not Rennala.
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Yeah, I never understood lore and names outside of Vaati's videos.
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Ah, alright.
I did assume it would be 7-A or thereabouts. Do feel free to send me the calcs. I'd love to eval 'em.
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Saying "a fantasy setting makes most statements a flowery language" sounds pretty much like... a fallacy. Like, why being the case should mean that the statements cannot be considered literally? You aren't really explaining why that's the case but saying that for you it doesn't count, while I already detailed further with my arguments and explained how it's logical. And if that's the case, which even worsen by calling someone "disappointing" just because he disgrees with you... then honestly it can't be made a productive discussion with you.
And as most people repeatedly showed, the celestial feats are there and are quite explicit. Radahn was holding meteorites/falling stars, yes, but he also was holding the real stars. We can see them starting shining after his defeat, and that doesn't makes any contradiction, because here one doesn't invalidates the other. For Ranni's feat I can't say much because I still didn't finished the game, but outside of that, we have Rennala's statement and feat, conjurating the night sky and a pocket dimension with stars and constellations. How that's something that cannot be considered? And I hope if you decide to answer then at least bring some actual evidence instead of personal assumptions.
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The times they mention falling/shooting stars isn't ignored no, however the fact that they specifically mention them when they refer to meteors shows that if they don't say it, they're talking about stars. I mentioned the chance that real stars might be involved despite the meteors because someone mentioned that besides the meteors moving, we also see stars light up after he dies? I'd have to kill him again to check idk if its true
Ranni's feat is visibly moving the stars and such and Moon. If you dislike the visuals, the dialogue actually provides a pretty clear explanation of what's happening, specifically the Japanese version as the English version was translated pretty badly for this part and sort of relays a different message. The English version says
Which implies her night, whatever it is, encompasses all now, however, the japanese meant the exact opposite
Her goal is to move her night, her order, away, physically, not time wise, as seen with her actually moving things in the ending, and the fact that its already started (cant delay something timewise if it already occured), so now we have to ask, what does the chill night entail? Well, the Japanese version also answers that
So based on this, her order is the stars, the Moon, etc, rather than the golden order of the Erdtree, hers is the stars and moon and cosmos, which is what she's moving, the dialogue corresponds nicely with the visuals, so it's a pretty easy intepreation to reach. She wants to, and does, move the stars and such infinitely far away, so far that people could not even see or believe in it, and we depart with her so there is no remnant of her night (order) left in the world
Rennala's night is pretty evident what it means, the night sky there is her night, similar to how Ranni's night is the cold dark moon+all the stars, Rennala's is the full moon+the stars we see. That's like, what her sorcery was based on achieving, as evidenced by the existence of spells that attempt to recreate even just the moon of her night, the goal of her magic was to recreate that night that enamored her and her academy, which is visibly what's done in the fight. There's not much other explanation for what happens in phase two, it's quite literally either "Rennala made the night as stated" or "Ranni used a never before used super illusion spell which creates her mom at full power and also can kill people" and despite this hypothetical power being used remotely, she never uses it on anyone else who it would be very useful against, which implies she doesn't exactly have that as a power, and makes the first interpretation more likely
Not the attacks, the part where it spawns, and literally makes nebulae in the Erdtree
Yeah, the attacks are a similar case to Astel's attacks, they're not actual stars, just vaguely similar so they don't matter
TLDR is at the end of her quest, she relays the will of the Three Fingers, which tells us essentially (when combined with some other dialogues like some of Shabriri's, and descriptions), that the Greater Will separated and created everything that exists from a singular, non distinct One, and the frenzied flame seeks to destroy the tree, Marika, whatever, to remove distinction and have the original One return as everything comes back together, not as relevant to the Elden Beast as the only ending that possibly scales is Frenzied Flame, and you can argue they got stronger, but its more to show that if the being that made it has that much power, and the ring (beast) has been said, since the trailers, to control the stars, there's no reason to assume the nebulae in the sky are illusions or something
Before its mentioned, being in the Erdtree isnt really indicative of scale, that thing is clearly not normal. You enter it through a fog that brings you to a platform you could not have possibly reached, the thing is translucent and has a lot of mysteries regarding its nature as a physical location, so it doesn't really mean the nebulae inside are small because its "in the tree"
Indeed, some people have used him to try and say that it gives evidence for stars not being stars, so I just thought I should mention why it doesn't really count
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I think I was ignored about what I said regarding Rennala. I don't know for sure if that's something she did, or it's something Ranni did, but I think the night Rennala creates in her boss fight remains even after her defeat. If you look at Liurnia sky, you'll see the same thing from her boss fight arena.
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Mr. Bambu
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I don't think them failing to explicitly mention it every time is an indication of it not being true in those instances where they fail to mention it. They establish what "stars" typically refers to. It is sufficient for me. What we see after Radahn dies is a plethora of lights flashing across the sky- meteors.
So first of all, I will point out that you once again present this as solid fact when it is not. Furthermore, I am also averse to playing around with Japanese raw text. I've seen the plethora of arguments regarding anime and their translations, I suspect some fuckery exists here. However, even ignoring said fuckery (which, in my experience, exists), she literally states that all she's doing is moving her order far away.
Her "night" is a meaningless term to me. You haven't shown anything of her "visuals" of physically moving the stars. Rather you have to infer this, and in my opinion the inference is mighty weak.
Nebulae that look like the attacks. The attacks that are visually similar to nebulae. The attacks that are human-sized and nebula-esque looking. That kind of nebulae. In the Erdtree. With a size we can see from the outside. That Erdtree.
Duly noted. Point disputed, suffice to say.
I'd like to see the raw dialogue, but it seems nobody's recorded it to the wiki. Shame. I did do bits of Yura/Shabriri's quest but I doubt I finished it. I say this to give context to my words.
I don't think what you're describing has any relevance to the argument. It sounds like an ability with very long range. Classification of said ability would require me to have proper context, but it is probably concept manip or something of a similar flavor. I don't see how this implies AP. It certainly wouldn't for another series. We can see that the world still exists in some capacity in the Frenzied Flame ending, given the image, so I also don't like that.
I mean. On the map, which shows the size of the Erdtree (in an abstracted sense, at least- the map certainly isn't 1:1) it does just show you in the dead center of the Erdtree during the boss. I agree it isn't normal, but I'd strongly doubt your arguments that it contains galaxies, considering the other mitigating factors to your argument (namely that we can stand directly next to attacks that look more or less like the "stars" and see their true scale). You need to prove these things beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't think you have done so remotely.
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I'm not sure if the feat has something to do with Ranni, I mean, I only noted the starry sky in Liurnia after I beat the game with all 3 endings, so I assumed that's because of Ranni. But now I realized it's because o Rennala. I asked @Chariot190 to take screenshots of Liurnia sky before and after Rennala boss fight.
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If they establish that when they're referring to them, they mention shooting or falling stars specifically, them not referring to it would imply they're in fact, not talking about shooting stars at that point. Not that they've decided that stars in general now means meteors
I mean, idk what else you can call it, she gets the power of the ring, and begins moving the stars and whatever else quite visibly on screen, I'm not sure what other interpretations exist for what that is given the dialogue I posted too
Her order is her night, so we know what she's moving, as she also states her order is her night, and the night is shown and said to be the moons and stars and whatever else. I'd again like to hear what other inference can be gleamed from the combination of this, and the visuals of the ending, because it seems pretty clear, and doesn't need many assumptions, to say she's moving the stars and such as she said, so her order is far out of sight and mind of everyone
The nebulae in the sky definitely don't look like the attacks, the attacks are dark clouds with explosions in them, the nebulae are bright and star filled like, nebulae in the sky. They're not really similar. The tree's visual size not meaning much is something I tried to imply in my comment.
The tree we see from the outside is also translucent, and yet we can't see the middle area with Marika, said area also literally can't be reached by walking, despite being able to see or touch parts of the outside of the tree. Said tree also literally clips into the ground, it doesn't grow from there, it's visible form just sorta extends into and through solid ground. It also kinda just, looks smaller on the outside than the inside would imply in any case, what I mean to say is that trying to use the visible size of it is kinda just bad, because the tree is very clearly not natural in appearance or structure, let alone literally just doing supernatural stuff
The Frenzied Flame was never said to instantly return everything to One, hence Melina being confident in being able to kill us and stop us, its implied to take time, and we can see its still acting in the ending, it's not like even the tree was poofed away instantly, so I wouldn't use things still existing in that ending to imply that the Greater Will's thing wasn't really making stuff and was just some sort of concept manip.
Yeah, and when you go into the storm that's beyond time, it shows you in modern Farum Azula, when you're in the super large darkness realm where you get ambushed by the fell twins on the way to whatever divine tower it was, it shows you in the same place you left. Idk if I'd use the map locations to mean much.
As I said above, the attacks copied from Astel don't really exactly look like the ones in the sky, and them being smaller doesn't really imply that the ones in the sky, which are visible clearly despite being far away, are also as small as the mini clouds he throws out.
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Hiya. First Soulsborne game I’ve ever played.
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This thread has made me go Hollow
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Elden Ring gonna spoil you rotten cuz Sekiro is the only other Souls game with a jump button
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I really hate this argument. "They don't say "shooting stars" enough to imply that's what they use to refer to stars. What's that? They do it a lot? Oh well then surely they'd do it every time." That's stupid. It's silly. We can contextually figure out when they're referring to meteors, Radahn's fights has a lot to do with meteors and shockingly little to do with stars, Paul. I think you're being purposefully obtuse.
Homie I think you saw a different cutscene than me lol. Ranni's questline ended with some wacky ass effects on the moon and nothing else. Don't know what you're on about with this one.
I will state again- the ending has no such visuals, I just rewatched it again to be certain. All Ranni says is that she is leaving. Given the stars and moon are already far away, and we see no visuals of them being physically moved, I do in fact find this to be a lot of ******' assumptions. A lot.
They're similar enough to cast doubt. I understood your attempt to disregard the tree's size, I just think that's not a great idea.
It becomes less translucent as you approach it. I think that's just an odd distance thing. Not that my points rely solely on visible size of the Erdtree, and I think I wasn't the one that initially brought this up, but hey, I think it's still a point worth noting, certainly more than you actually are.
Sure, so we now have an unclear timeframe for things. Shouldn't scale to anything.
Time is slightly different than space. I thought that was clear. Faram Azula is still theoretically in the same spot. I never checked the map in the darkness realm given the ambush that occurs upon entering. Even so, I think the Erdtree would be given slightly more consideration than random miniboss #87.
Astel has nothing to do with this. I am not mentioning Astel. He's irrelevant.
The attacks that are similar are used by the Elden Beast. The boss you are arguing about. Please keep this in mind, chief.
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Hi, welcome, love this game, hate VSBW.
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When I get some time and access to a shitty notebook, I'll see if I can calc some stuff like PE of giant dudes. Waiting that "Elden Ring boss size comparison" where they generally show our character near them. We also need to list every speed feat with lightning.
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I have slayed Godrick & Grafted Scion. Will probably get to Rennala this week.
