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Edo Tensei Itachi (Naruto) vs. Kakine Teitoku (To Aru Majutsu No Index)

That whole DM network thing is questionable with Itachi. If Kakine resembles a human in the same way that a chakra entity resembles an animal. I see no reason why genjutsu wouldn't work.. Everyone else is of the opinion that genjutsu doesn't work on Kakine.

I mean, we have examples of genjutsu working on a tailed beast while it is sealed away inside of its jinjuriki and doesn't even have a physical form .

..........Kakine probably wins anyway because of his abilities( or it's just a matter of who makes the first move), I just question the legitimacy of the claim that genjutsu is useless against Kakine.
 
YungManzi said:
That whole DM network thing is questionable with Itachi. If Kakine resembles a human in the same way that a chakra entity resembles an animal. I see no reason why genjutsu wouldn't work.. Everyone else is of the opinion that genjutsu doesn't work on Kakine.
I mean, we have examples of genjutsu working on a tailed beast while it is sealed away inside of its jinjuriki and doesn't even have a physical form .

..........Kakine probably wins anyway because of his abilities( or it's just a matter of who makes the first move), I just question the legitimacy of the claim that genjutsu is useless against Kakine.
Click to expand...
no he is (DM) inorganic and it's not a claim it's in the profile
 
@Malox

That wasn't the point of my argument. Earlier I said.

A tailed beast is just a conscious mass of chakra.

In response someone said.

Tailed beasts are made out of chakra, but model their bodies after living creatures, not only externally but also internally, otherwise Kurama's bones and muscles wouldn't show up in the advanced stages of Naruto's chakra cloak and Ginkaku and Kinkaku wouldn't have been able to do their thing of "Kyuubi ate us, let's eat the flesh of his stomach".

^^^That makes no sense in the context of this argument. The kyuubi has flesh, but it's still made of pure chakra in the same way that Kakine's body is made of DM. The only reason Kinkaku and Ginkaku could even do something like eat Kurama's flesh and not be poisoned to death is because they have SO6P blood.
 
YungManzi said:
@Malox
That wasn't the point of my argument. Earlier I said.

A tailed beast is just a conscious mass of chakra.

In response someone said.

Tailed beasts are made out of chakra, but model their bodies after living creatures, not only externally but also internally, otherwise Kurama's bones and muscles wouldn't show up in the advanced stages of Naruto's chakra cloak and Ginkaku and Kinkaku wouldn't have been able to do their thing of "Kyuubi ate us, let's eat the flesh of his stomach".

^^^That makes no sense in the context of this argument. The kyuubi has flesh, but it's still made of pure chakra in the same way that Kakine's body is made of DM. The only reason Kinkaku and Ginkaku could even do something like eat Kurama's flesh and not be poisoned to death is because they have SO6P blood.
Click to expand...
he meant as, the biju have organs, skeleton, blood, etc when they physically form, kakine doesn't need those when he take physical form, and even his physical form is just a clone not the network (as he has now become his poersonal reality)
 
@Malox

Bijuu have those things, but like Kakine they don't need them to survive.

"Because the tailed beasts are pure chakra, they cannot actually be killed; if they or their jinchüriki die, their chakra will re-coalesce in time"

"In addition, if a large portion of a tailed beast's chakra is separated from it, that chakra becomes a separate, sentient copy of the tailed beast."

Edit: I give up, this was over before I even came in to adress the main arguments concerning genjutsu.
 
YungManzi said:
@Malox
Bijuu have those things, but like Kakine they don't need them to survive.

"Because the tailed beasts are pure chakra, they cannot actually be killed; if they or their jinchüriki die, their chakra will re-coalesce in time"

"In addition, if a large portion of a tailed beast's chakra is separated from it, that chakra becomes a separate, sentient copy of the tailed beast."
Click to expand...
yea infact u dont affect all tghe talied beast by affecting one, u just affect that one, and u can't affect the tailed beast just as formless chakra right ?
 
YungManzi said:
@Malox
You can affect them as fromless chakra without a physical body, Obito did it.
Click to expand...
by formless chakra i mean when the chakra still needs to re-coalesce and is just basic chakra travelling the world
 
We went over this... that central consciousness/mind is what allows genjutsu users to manipulate the tailed beast. In kakines case there is no central consciousness or mind. "Kakine" is just the information each individual dark matter particle retains which is distinguished from the others and manifests because of his AIM and personal reality neither of which genjutsu can effect as it is mind hax. Genjutsu needs some sort of mind/consciousness to manipulate but it can't manipulate inanimate objects.
 
@Malox

The chakra isn't sentient at that point so no. (I'm pretty sure it's not possible to mind hax non-sentient energy with no mass).
 
in the first place how does Genjutsu interact with bushin and chakra less things ? was there any situation where when someone cast an illusion on a clone and the original was affected too ?
 
"was there any situation where when someone cast an illusion on a clone and the original was affected too ?"

I dont remember that,it never happened in Naruto I guess.
 
@Zensum

From what I've read, Kakine is still a sentient being made made of matter.

Sentient = able to perceive or feel things.

If Kakine can make decisions and have emotions, this would mean he is a sentient creature = can be affected by genjutsu.
 
YungManzi said:
^^That's because unlike Kakine clones don't share a Hive mind with the original at one time.
Click to expand...
no the clone in naruto after "death" give their expirience to the original, rasen shuriken was all about that
 
@Malox

Yes, but clones cannot communicate with each other telepathically and they also don't know what the others are thinking.
 
And unlike the clones, Kakine is information. He is Dark Matter. He is AIM. He is his personal reality. Genjutsu can't affect something like that. The point is: Dark Matter shouldn't even exist. But he creates it. Theres no chakra nor brain to affect.

Also, its 7-0 for Kakine. Decisive win.
 
YungManzi said:
@Zensum
From what I've read, Kakine is still a sentient being made made of matter.

Sentient = able to perceive or feel things.

If Kakine can make decisions and have emotions, this would mean he is a sentient creature = can be affected by genjutsu.
Click to expand...
well kakine has become his personal reality, what comes out is just the pesonality nearer to the surface, and that is why he then lost as there is no central part and all part are replecable and unconnected, who is the real kakine the sadistic power hungry one or the new kind ,selfless one ? he already surpassed the definition of "human" and "alive"
 
YungManzi said:
@Malox
Yes, but clones cannot communicate with each other telepathically and they also don't know what the others are thinking.
Click to expand...
kakine clones just wire tap each other they don't personally experience anything
 
YungManzi said:
@Zensum
From what I've read, Kakine is still a sentient being made made of matter.

Sentient = able to perceive or feel things.

If Kakine can make decisions and have emotions, this would mean he is a sentient creature = can be affected by genjutsu.
Click to expand...
No, he is the matter which is produced through Kakine Teitokus personal reality

He doesn't feel, the matter retains information from its surrondings. It is like a CD where individual tracks refer to each unique information gathered

All subordiante to Kakines aim field and personal reality one would have to manipulate these to take control over or disrupt DM. Genjutsu is mind hax.
 
@Schro

1. Genjustu doesn't need an actual brain to work. I already explained why above (It was stated OUAT but was sort of retconned halfway through part 2, since we haave feats to suggest otherwise).

2. What does him being information or DM have to do with why genjustu wouldn't work? Is he corporeal and sentient? If the answer is yes (Which it is) then genjutsu should work regardless.
 
Sigh... Genjutsu always was stated to affect the brain. It NEEDS a brain to affect. Otherwise, its useless. Stop that bullshit wank and accept that genjutsu is shit.

He is Dark Matter. Dark Matter is him. He is sentient because he can think, but he isn't organic or even alive in the first place. Genjutsu can't affect the information that Kakine is. It can't affect AIM. It can't affect Personal Reality.
 
@Schro

You call me a wanker despite the fact that I already explained why you're wrong.

Genjustu can work on non-organic beings. Kotoamatsukami itself is based around impanting false memories, experiences, and information.

In reality, I'm not even arguing that Genjutsu works on DMB, I'm arguing that it works on Kakine himself. (Unless this is beetle 05, that makes things a lot....stranger. Because Beetle 05 still has a personality and can think for himself so there's no reason why genjutsu wouldn't work tbh, but there's that 'information" thing that people bring up.)
 
Beetle 05 is Post-Revival good guy Kakine.

Still being information. All your reasons are pure wank and headcanon, contradicting anything shown in the series
 
@Schro

How is it headcanon when I'm stating something that actually happened in the story? Kurama did not have a physical brain and Obito still mind haxed him.

Kushina and Kurama don't share the same mind, and even then at that point Kurama was just a sentient mass of chakra which existed in the seal. He isn't linked to Kushina's brain, nor does he even have a brain at that point.

Feats>>Statements (TBH those statements are kinda taken out of context anyways.)
 
kakine as the real one is just dark matter, if he wanted he doesn't even need a clone to take form, the clone take the closeset pesonality from the "surface" of his "mind" and act, they are not connected to the whole and can create their own network if they get isolated and undetected (for example there are now 2 kakine as the douche one was saved and keepept undetected by thor to use for gungunir) affecting one clone does not affect the network unless u can control DM or Personal Reality
 
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