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Dungeons & Dragons Gods and Demigods Revision

Yeah it's iffy. But the main reason they can't confirm it is because of a dimensional lock placed down from 6th+ dimensional beings. So its not like it couldn't exist.

But anyways I think the quotes should either be dismissed or reduced to a "Possibly". Low 1-C LOP is one thing, but High 1-B or 1-A?
 
Okay, even I have to say, I don't think Vecna is High 1-B.

Gods = High 2-A

(Exists in the 5th dimension)

Overdeities = At least Low 1-C, Possibly High 1-B

(Far above the Gods, the LoP can effortlessly destroy any of the Gods and destroy the Multiverse in her true form, Possibly High 1-B, Possibly on the same level as Ao, who created Infinite Dimensions in the Multiverse.)

Ao = At least Low 1-C, Possibly High 1-B (Above all Gods, is able to create all the other Gods from thin air, Possibly High 1-B, there is a possibility that the Multiverse contains infinite dimension, which Ao created.) Luminous Being = At least High 1-B (Sees all beings in D&D as fiction, including Ao, who created the Multiverse.)
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If Ao is High 1-B, Lumi would need to be 1-A wouldn't he?
Click to expand...
I think the Luminous Being would be "At least High 1-B" or 1-A, regardless? Even if we assumed there was only a single D&D multiverse where the dimensions rose up into infinity, the Far Realm is explicitly beyond all multiverses in the setting, and the Luminous Being completely transcends the Far Realm, being outside of all D&D's time and space.

IDK. I assume if anything got an upgrade, it would be Lumi.
 
So like. For now I think its better to not appely changes until we decide if the Mystara stuff is usable. Since we'd be upgrading multiple people to pretty high tier 1 status.
 
@Qawsedf

Due to its nature, I'm pretty sure the Mystara stuff is by definition usable for Lumi due to still being part of D&D.

It's everything else we need to decide on.
 
Assuming we disregard the infinite dimensions stuff, Lumi should be High 1-B for transcending every multiverse of the D&D-verse and the Far Realm, which also trascends those. 1-A if we accept infinite dimensions.

I'm heavily against accepting infinite dimensional stuff.
 
Actually yeah. The Mystara stuff should apply to the only character we have on site that has actually ever interacted with it. Lumi. The rest of the verse (on-site, at least) has nothing to do with these higher dimensional multiverses.
 
So for Lumi it'd be

Tier: Low 1-C, possibly 1-A

Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in a realm beyond the entirety of both the Forgotten Realms' infinite multiverse and the realms which encompass it and are outside of it, dwarfing entities like Ao, the Overgod of Realmspace, who transcends all of creation. Tasked with the creation and destruction of universes and realities both big and small, and is utterly beyond all rules and associations that arise from within the game's universe. Most commonly thought and accepted to be a stand-in for the DM of a Dungeons and Dragons game, representing the reader of a Forgotten Realms setting.), possibly Outerverse level (Transcendent over the Mystaraian Multiverse which has an infinite amount geometric dimensions. Transcendent over the Far Realm which itself transcends the D&D multiverse )
 
He created the Forgetten Realms multiverse. But I think Azzy thought you meant the general D&D multiverse. Or D&D Polyverse according to the first Manual of the Planes.
 
@Udlmaster

What Qawsedf said.

@Qawsedf

I don't even really know if the low-end for Lumi would be necessary, since he's the one thing we could unambiguously say scales from this as a being fully transcendent of D&D's cosmology and an allegory for the Dungeon Master.

It's everything else I'd think would need a more thorough analysis on if it can actually scale to Mystara stuff, or not.
 
Also, should we close this and move it into a new thread so people who are seeing it can catch up without seeing 68540^53895259285 messages before understanding where we are?
 
If Bambu agrees then i think we can upgrade Lumi to High 1-A (assuming that's fine and Azathoth feels like doing it). But all the other stuff needs a new thread at this point. Since we have to decide on if anyone actually scales to this besides The Luminous Being.
 
I've created a New thread, so this one can be closed and we can start again in that thread.
 
Lumi certainly isn't a potential for High 1-A (not yet, at least), but I guess 1-A has justifications since he is transcendent over at least one multiverse that is theoretically infinitely dimensional. That said, I believe the low-end of Low 1-C should stay (or whatever low-end we end up on) since even the link says the immortals can't really prove their infinite dimension theorem, just that it seems the most likely explanation.
 
Ahh. I mean 1-A. I was just thinking of High 1-B at the time and got my tiers jumbled.

So "1-C, possibly 1-A"? 1-C being that he transcends 6 or 7 dimensions with the possibly being with the Far Realm and Dimensional stuff.
 
Yeah, that sounds right by me.
 
I can, but before I do, we should probably clarify something about the Luminous being and the dimensions hypothesized by the Immortals.

  • First of all, while the Immortals cannot prove/explore these dimensions on their own, I'm pretty sure the text suggests they do exist. The Old Ones are even said to be aware that the Immortals' power could "transcend all boundaries", which is why they created the Barrier to stop the Immortals from transcending beyond the fifth dimension.
  • Right after this, it's stated that the Old Ones withdrew themselves to the sixth and higher dimensions, which would again suggest these actually exist.
  • If we are keeping the low end, I'd personally think the fact that these dimensions are heavily suggested to exist should probably warrant a "likely 1-A" for the Luminous Being as opposed to just "possibly", as the latter would be used when the probability of the rating is entirely indeterminate.
  • Also, we need to clarify the level of the low end on the Luminous Being's page. We know the 7th dimension exists, and that the Old Ones withdrew into the "sixth and higher dimensions". If there are "higher dimensions" above the sixth (such as the seventh, which is directly mentioned), we could assume at a bare minimum the multiverse has eight total dimensions. This would make the Far Realm at least 9-D, and the Luminous Being at least 10-D. Isn't that actually High 1-C? Because it would mean its rating would be "At least High 1-C, likely 1-A".


Finally, semi-unrelated, but does anyone know the exact sourcebook these quotes come from?
 
I was referring to the infinite dimensions. In Mystara, higher dimensions do clearly exist, but they are unsure of infinite dimensions. Meaning "Possibly 1-A" is still the best option.
 
I wouldn't say they're "unsure" of infinite dimensions. The Immortals firmly believe there are an infinite number ("They further deduced that an infinite number of dimensions must exist") and the text itself seems to confirm "this is how the world works".

"The conclusion of this line of reasoning is that any being who perceives a given number of dimensions must exist in a space that has a greater number of dimensions to perceive those dimensions; at least one more and possibly several. From this, it is easily proved that Immortals, who can perceive four dimensions, must exist in five or more."

This is the same line of reasoning that brought them to "there must be an infinite number of dimensions, as each one depends on the one above it".

It's basically "they're probably right, but we're not going to flat out confirm it".
 
So it is unsure. I'd still prefer Possibly but if you vehemently believe it should be Likely, such a difference hardly matters. Feel free.
 
Probably a good idea.
 
Speaking of other D&D stuff, I really need to find a way to acurately tier super high-end enemies (CR 20+...or ~30 in 4e) at some point. There are some absolutely insane scaling statements about ancient dragons, but finding direct feats can be difficult.
 
The source for the Far Realm quote is from Dragon #358. The page number is in the image.
 
The main issue with high tiers is that you basically have to scale CR and expected character levels to the thing they're fighting. Such as the CR 30 planet you can fight and kill in 4e or the high level CR abomination that powers the core of planets.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The main issue with high tiers is that you basically have to scale CR and expected character levels to the thing they're fighting. Such as the CR 30 planet you can fight and kill in 4e or the high level CR abominatio that powers the core of planets.
Click to expand...
Which abomination even is this, again?
 
The Phaethon. There's a few other notable abominations as well. The Infernal is so powerful it challenges Demon Lords and Archdevils and the Hecatoncheires has canonically murdered entire pantheons before with its power.
 
The Seventh Dimension quote is in the Player's Section page 19. When its going over spells and what happens when Immortals use them.
 
Wonder if we should add an Old Ones section now. Maybe beef up the universe a bit.
 
Anyways when your finished reading and if you still agree with the "1-C/High 1-C, likely 1-A" rating for Lumi you have my support to make the upgrade.
 
After reading through more of this, I'm leaning more towards the whole "the infinite dimensions theory is meant to be taken seriously" approach.

  • Immortals are stated to have deduced most of the truth about the multiverse. In universe, they just can't prove their theories because the Old Ones are preventing them from doing so. I feel like it would be weird for the book to state that the Immortals are right but also state that the entire section on their view of dimensions and the multiverse is wrong.
"Immortals have imagined much of the following, and have in fact deduced most of the truth, but have never found real evidence to support their theories."

  • The Immortals' power on its own is said to have the ability to transcend all boundaries, but the Old Ones placed a limit on them. This is directly referring to a limited dimensional state of existence and the Old Ones placing the Barrier so that they may not transcend beyond the 5th dimension.
"But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier.

Withdrawing themselves into the sixth and higher dimensions, the Old Ones created a type of wall between themselves and the rest of existence. Whenever an Immortal tries to pass beyond the first five dimensions, he or she enters a special realm."

  • We're directly told that Immortals can only achieve the level of the Old Ones through time, experience, and will. This comes right before the statement that the Immortals could just transcend all boundaries and keep going higher in dimensional space if the Old Ones didn't limit them. Keep in mind that doing this would still not result in them becoming Old Ones, which is why the Old Ones limited them and provided them with a test, in the first place.
"For despite their unimaginable abilities, the Old Ones are tragically similar to Immortals in one respect. They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals."

  • More confirmation that the Barrier exists so that Immortals can actually become Old Ones, which they couldn't do with power to "transcend all boundaries".
"The barrier will not be removed until this great experiment of the Old Ones has reached a conclusion , for it has been successful in creating new Old Ones."


I also definitely believe that, for right now, the only things this should affect are the Far Realm and the Luminous Being. The Mystaran multiverse is far too different from any other D&D multiverse to try and compare them, and the two things I mentioned are, to my knowledge, the only place and being outside of said multiverse that are explicitly stated to scale to all multiverses.
 
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