Dungeons & Dragons Gods and Demigods Revision

[Udlmaster]

Okay, so far, the intemidate Gods and Lesser Gods are considered Universal+ to Low Multiversal, honestly, they should all be moved up to Multiversal+

I know, bold statement, but there is a reason, a similar reason for why Vecna's Greater God form is Multiversal+ and that is from the 2e Expansion guide: "Die, Vecna, Die", in which, there is a scenario where the Players can actually fail.

Now normally, a GM wouldn't let them fail, as the guide gives ways around it, but sometimes, it's inevitable, and the bodies cannot be recovered and ressurected, so, the Lady of Pain then calls in 4-5 Demigods, however, it is noted that she fears that their pressence will help in the collapse of the Multiverse, as the presence of the Demigods actually causes damage to the Seal which keeps the Multiverse together.

This is very very important, as we know that the Lady of Pain's heavily restricted form doesn't, to our knowledge, cause damage to the Seal, however, the pressence of Demigods does cause damage to it, as there is a then round timer, which is 2d6+30.

So, by just Demigods, which are seen as just Mortals in the Eyes of Lesser Gods, passively, by existing, hurt the seal that is holding the Multiverse together.

The Seal itself would have Durability around Multiversal+, as it holds the entire thing together, we know that was it wavered, parts were lost forever and the LoP couldn't mend, even in her Unrestricted form, so it could very well have High Multiversal+ Durability being able to keep together said Multiverse.

Then the Demigods by existing in Sigil, in close proximity of the seal harm it, deal passive damage by being there, this shows that the Demigods have At least Multiversal+ level of power, as they are passively damaging the seal.

Of course, then the Gods, Lesser, Intermediate and Greater would all be even higher, having the "At least 2-A, Possibly High 2-A", as they very well could be High 2-A as seeing the Demigods as nothing more than mere mortals,

This wouldn't be out of the ordinary either, as we know the Lady of Pain actively kept all Gods out there and even the Avatar's of the Gods hurt the Seal, as shown with Vecna.

So, what level does one have to be to attempt to become a God?
Well, we can actually measure this with Kas and Vecna again, as Kas became Envious of Vecna and once Vecna gave him a incredibly powerful sword for his loyalty, Kas used it in a suprise attack on Vecna (This was when Vecna was a Demigod), Kas wanted to kill Vecna and take his place as a God, and so, what level is Kas? Well, Kas is, as shown in the "Open Grave" 4e Guide book, a Level 26 Vampire Lord, this means we can accurately measure that someone of At least Level 26 can become a God (Gain Divine Ranks)

And what level does one have to be to become a Lesser God? This one is much easier, as we have multiple instances of Vecna, we can get a good range, as for Divine Level, one must be level 6-10 As Vecna post Die Vecna die is a Lesser God we know his range:
In terms of regular levels, one must be around level 35 to 40. So we know this is the usual range for a Lesser Deity.
What level does one have to be to become a Intemediate God? This one is harder, as there isn't too many Intemediate Gods that show up often but their Divine Rank of 11-15. Greater Gods are 16-20 and Overdeities (Placeholder name) are 21+, the Lady of Pain falls perfectly under this too.

So, what do you lot think?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm pretty sure gods causing the multiverse to collapse due to being in Sigil is specifically due to its nature as a central point of the multiverse and the gods' nature as...gods, not due to sheer power alone.

The Lady, even while restricted, is above any god on the conventional scale (demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater), and she has no adverse effect on Sigil. Only the Lady's "true form" is what we're told would collapse the multiverse from its sheer presence, which is something that seemed out of her control. Considering she's not a god, that would be through raw power.

Vecna's presence in Sigil, a placed barred from gods, was unnatural. The sheer fact that he was there was a problem in itself, and it was far easier for him to destabilize the entire multiverse from that point. More gods entering Sigil, even if they're only demigods, helps contribute to this collapse. It's not because the gods themselves are so powerful that the multiverse can't handle their presence.


On the topic of Lesser Deities though, one edition does mention them as being only "slightly less powerful" than Greater Gods or something, so make of that what you will. Consistency in the power levels among gods can get weird, anyway. For example, Kurtulmak is subservient to Tiamat, who is his superior and can boss him around like a little baby bitch to go and run fetch-quests for her. However, Kurtulmak is an Intermediate Deity while Tiamat is a Lesser Deity, which means he should be above her, but he isn't.

On top of this, the Primordial (who are on equal footing to Greater Deities, in some cases) known as Erek-Hus cleaved Io, the Greater God of dragons, right in half. However, before he could even celebrate his victory, Bahamut and Tiamat, who were and still are Lesser Deities, rose from Io's corpse and completely annihilated Erek-Hus, which means that together these two Lesser Deities should be above Io, who is a Greater Deity...and who was also them, apparently.

One could argue that Bahamut and Tiamat are the exception to the deity power scale as opposed to the norm, or maybe that many of D&D's authors just realized that the chief gods among dragons being able to get shit-kicked by a divine sky gnome is still one of the dumbest powerscaling decisions in the entire franchise, but the point still stands that Lesser Deities and Intermediate Deities are very hard to define, as they will range from "absolutely nowhere near a Greater Deity in terms of scale or power" to "two Lesser Deities > some individual Greater Deities".

 

[Udlmaster]

That's very interesting, as Tharizdun, who was imprisoned and had the Pantheons all work together to Imprison him.

Tharizdun also created the Abyss itself, as well, which we know is Infinite in Layers and size, as each layer is infinite, and the layers have no known limit, and is, I believe referenced to be infinite, as well, Tharizdun is only an intermediate God, yet it took all the Gods to imprison him.

We know that Tharazdun also started the Dawn War, where the Primordial's and the Gods fought, including the Greater Gods, and we know that Tharazdun fought himself and from the War, other God where created from it, and of course, from this we can measure that most of the Gods, Lesser to Greater are in the Multiversal+ ranges, scaling from the Primordials, the Early Gods and Tharazdun.

So, this tied in with the feat of the Demigods, now, it was said that the Lady of Pain didn't know if the Demigods would hurt the seal, and it's only during the last 5 minutes that the Lady takes the risk and let them come in, so, their effect isn't too great, but with what's shown of the Lesser Gods up to Greater Gods, they should be moved up to the same power.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, Tiamat and Bahamat who beat Erek-Hus, who was above Io, Tiamat serves 2 other Greater Gods reluctantly, meaning that they themselves are stronger than Tiamat and can influence her, one of the 2 is Bane, who died around the same time as the Dawn War.

Tiamat who is around the same strength of Io, died as well, she was killed but another God, Marduk.

So, 2-A to High 2-A was then killed by another God who was a Greater God, but what is interesting, is that Marduk is actually an Aspect of Bahamut as well, which shows that the Gods, no matter the Status are At least 2-A, with scaling during the Dawn War.

 

[Udlmaster]

After doing a little more research on Io, I've found out a few things:

Io is infact an Overdeity who are the highest Deity one can get, Overdeities include Ao, The Lady of Pain, and similar Gods.

Since we know that a Greater Deity can harm a Overdeity, who are on the level of Ao, this could mean that, while not as strong as Ao and LoP as they seem to be very high tier even among the Overdeities, Io shouldn't be too far behind and therefore, they should be moved (All Gods) to At least 2-A, Possibly High 2-A, as Lesser Deities were able to kill someone who killed an Overdeity, it makes sense.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't remember Tharizdun requiring all gods working together just to imprison him. Just that the gods put aside their differences and sealed him because they were worried about the Abyss. I'm also not sure if Intermediate is supposed to be his current ranking or Dawn War ranking. I'd have to check Complete Divine.

Io is not an Overdeity. He/she/it has never been referred to as such in any canon material to my knowledge, but has been referred to as both an Intermediate Deity and Greater Deity.

Marduk is Bahamut, but who was elevated to Greater God status after joining a new pantheon (he would basically be a key for Bahamut if he ever gets a page).

 

[Udlmaster]

However, what abou the other parts? Like a Intermidate God creating the Abyss which is a 2-A feat, at least, and of course, Lesser Gods being able to harm and kill Greater Gods.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, I got that part, Io being an Overdeity, from 1d4chan, after doing some research further he's not an Overdeity but a Primordial.

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh, also, Io is credited with creating the Multiverse, wouldn't this also mean that the Gods could be much higher than just 2-A?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The issue with Tharizdun creating the Abyss is that he didn't so much go "Skidaddle Skidoodle" and just create the Abyss out of nothing. He took a literal seed of evil and planted it in the Elemental Chaos, which eventually grew into the Abyss. This was meant to gain him power, as well.

Which cases of Lesser Gods killing Greater Gods are you referring to? Bahamut and Tiamat killing Erek-Hus the Primordial? I already mentioned above that Bahamut and Tiamat are weird, and consistently do not abide by the normal deity scale or divine rank, and that their power seems to drastically vary from story to story. I'm not sure if this is the rule or the exception to it, though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Oh, also, Io is credited with creating the Multiverse, as Ao was given High 2-A for being credited with such a feat, wouldn't it make the Gods High 2-A and the "God Tiers" (Excuse the pun) like Ao, LoP and Luminous Being higher? (High 2-A --> Low 1-C, Low 1-C --> 1-C)

The dragons believe he did. We don't know if this is actually true, and we don't know if this refers to the full extent of the multiverse or "just" infinite planes of existence, the latter of which is more likely.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> On the topic of Lesser Deities though, one edition does mention them as being only "slightly less powerful" than Greater Gods or something, so make of that what you will.

I think that was retconned into Intermediate deities after 2nd edition came out. Since in 1e the god rankings were: "Hero, Demi, Lesser, Greater."

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also to add | Dragons get extremely confrontational if anyone challenges their religious view. Honestly its probably just them hyping up their creator since even the good Dragons think they're the best thing in the multiverse.

Plus I don't think Ao is High 2A for creating the FR multiverse/sphere/cosmology but for being vastly above the various 2A Greater Gods in his sphere.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, Io is directly credited with the creation of the Multiverse in the Guide, this isn't from a quote, it's direct source information, and of course, they wouldn't put it there if it didn't have any meaning either and most of all not in a Source guide book:

https://imgur.com/a/QsUmpt0

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh as for the Ao part, I ment to change that, but it hasn't changed yet :/

 

[Qawsedf234]

In that source doesn't the God of Giants also say he creates the multiverse? Plus in 2e almost every pantheon said they created the multiverse like the Greeks or the Egyptians. Not really a super definitive source imo.

Plus other sources have differen't creation stories, like the one with Asmodeus being an ancient flying snake that helped make the outer planes.

 

[Udlmaster]

BTW, this is composite, so all versions count as cannon. That's why the Luminous being is still a thing.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, if there is additional sources for the creation of the Multiverse, it's most likely because it's the Dm who get's to choose who created the Multiverse in the end, but they should all be considered as creators of the Multiverse, if they get a profile:

"Supposidly the one who created the D&D Multiverse" or something similar.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But even then, creating even the 2e multiverse is only a 2A feat to my understanding. The only way to get to High 2A or Low 1C is to rely on scaling. Unless we start to include the Krustyverse I don't think gods are gonna get higher than 2A.

 

[Udlmaster]

Krustyverse?

 

[Qawsedf234]

A fan made 3e expansion that focused on the Gods. By the end of it you could get 10th or 11th dimensional god that had infinite ability scores and powers like omniscience.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Doesen't DnD have multiple multiverses though?

 

[Qawsedf234]

In 3e and 4e yeah, but those Multiverses added together is still only 2A to my understanding.

 

[Udlmaster]

No, the Outer Planes themselves could qualify for 2-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In 2e sure, but having an infinite amount of universal sized areas is still only a 2A thing.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It's also stated the far realm reaches all multiverses so it's likely a 5-D realm

 

[Qawsedf234]

Couldn't that be 4-D space though, since (in 3e) the shadow plane all touches all multiverses (or at least all Material Planes)?

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, from what I've read, the Outer Plane is a Infinite amount of Infinite Sized Universes (So Infinite 4-D Objects, as they have different time to each other.), on a 5-D Scale.

All of it would be most likely multiple 5-D constructs, which would still be High 2-A

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In 3e and 4e yeah, but those Multiverses added together is still only 2A to my understanding.

5e says the Far Realm might also be an entirely different multiverse, but I don't believe we ever get direct confirmation of this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In 2e the outer planes are an Infinite Amount of Multiverse sized layers (or at least the Abyss is), in the other editions they're just planes of infinite size than have finite and infinite layers to them. The "standard" Abyss in 3e for instance only had a few layers that were infinite, with most being finite.

If having two+ multiverses = High 2A I guess they are, but I don't see it. Especially when even the outer planes are effected by time.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, not just affected by time, but they have their own time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah you can make future universe doppelgängers and time travel even while in the outer planes. They're not transcendent above time. Some of the Gods are, but not the planes.

 

[Udlmaster]

No, no, not transcendent or above time (Not sure where you got that from), but the planes have their own flow of time, much like Time Dilation, except a lot more warped and strange.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Anything that isn't 1-A or higher is bound by some form of time

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think they all share the time. From memory only the Astral plane has weird time shenanigans. You could live in the Sigil, Baator, the Brass City, or Greyhawk and everyone would use the same clock.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The feywild has random time stuff as well IIRC

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does it? Not really familiar with 4e/5e. But ultimately I think everything exist in the same 4-D place, but certain areas flow time differently. In 2e at least that's how it was going by the Greeks, time as a concept didn't exist until the Titan of Memory came into being.

 

[Udlmaster]

So far with 5th edition, there are no God stats, at least not yet, we might have to wait a few months to a year or two before we get the God stats, there may never be for 5th edition God stats as they're keeping them pretty abstract so far, not even really giving hints to their power.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, all God have connection to Abeir-Toril, which Ao controls, but he also draws his power, seemingly from the same place, Abeir-Toril, but he has total control, no person can connect to Abeir-Toril, no matter how powerful they are.

"Another of his functions was to decide which interloper deities were allowed in the sphere of Abeir-Toril and which mortals could be raised to godhood. If Ao didn't allow it, a being could not ascend to divinity, and an interloper deity could not enter the sphere or affect it in any way, regardless of how powerful it was."

"His powers were limited to the sphere of Abeir-Toril, however, and he could not control or influence something from beyond it."

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, the Tharizdun thing, Tharizdun was imprisoned in a Replica Version of the Abyss called the Voidharrow, so they can create structures similar to the Abyss as well:

"He was trapped in another universe that had been completely subsumed by its own version of The Abyss, known only as Voidharrow. The gods left him with all of his powers intact in this realm, similar to what he wished to turn this universe into."