Dungeons & Dragons Gods and Demigods Revision

[ZacharyGrossman273]

On another note, Corello and Gruumsh are missing the pretty major deity weakness of "If no one believes in them, they cease to exist".
I can't remember if Vecna has this weakness, as well.

"Atheism! My one weakness!"

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well to make it easier there's roughly three options that we can choose from

• Ignore it since its a bit strange

• Partially accept it. So Vecna becomes "Low 2-C to 2-C, possibly 2-A", LOP becomes "At least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C", and Lumi becomes "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C"

• Fully accept it and upgrade the Gods to 2-A, The LOP to Low 1-C, and Lumi to 1-C

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So I collected all the scans

• Mystara is connected to the AD&D multiverse
• The Mystara world has at least five or six dimensions . And these seem to be gemometric /spacial dimensions.

It may also be worth mentioning the current lore that states deities living in the outer planes (including Lesser Deities) are capable of completely remaking them, on a whim.

I'm not sure how we scale things like this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If we accept it then all Gods become 4-D. Dunno how Demon Lords and Devils work with this.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

All gods are 4-D including lesser gods. The outer planes being 5-D is highly questionable and I'm not sure about it myself but it would make greater gods High 2-A

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Greater Gods would just be stronger 4D beings in comparison to the Lesser and Intermediate Gods. I dunno if they have the feats to be considered High 2A

 

[Qawsedf234]

Hey if nothing else comes from this we got more 11-B and 11-A people.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It may also be worth mentioning the current lore that states deities living in the outer planes (including Lesser Deities) are capable of completely remaking them, on a whim.

I'm not sure how we scale things like this.

So what are you suggesting? High 2-A Gods, Low 1-C Ao and LOP, and 1-C Lumi?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah there's alternate multiverses with different rules. There's one multiverses comprised of giant insects that have a higher CR than Tarrasques.

I stopped reading the rest of this, I demand a source. Our party is suddenly level 25+ and is gonna get higher due to time jumps. Gimme dat source.

The weakness is sort of on the gods' page by way of Immortality Type 8- their immortality is dependent upon people worshipping them.

As for the rest of this. This information of higher dimensions does seem to refer to spatial dimensions, that much can't be denied. Specifically, between the two, we seem to vary between 5-6 dimensional space, and deities are explicitly stated to perceive and manipulate these higher dimensions easier.

However, considering we use a composite, this may be an outlier. It isn't like this is a subject not often referred to, like some unknown ability or something- this is the power of the gods themselves.

I'm against upgrading based on the higher dimensional stuff, considering how little we have to go on. Just reaches into outlier-dom.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, if you think about it all, not really, most of all because Io (Not Ao) was stated to create the Multiverse, so if he created the Multiverse, and it contains Higher dimensions, then he could be High 2-A, and then he was literally split in half by another Greater God, then that Greater God was beaten by Tiamat and Bahamut, and with the Demigods being able to affect the seal, even if only in a very minor way it's still affecting a Seal capable of keeping the Multiverse together, then we know that Vecna's Avatar was did permament harm to the Multiverse before we stop him, so there's that.

Then the LoP being able to destroy possibly up to 6 Dimensional contructs by existing and made a seal which kept all those 6-D contructs together.

Alter Reality is a ability from 3e where it allows a God, by just thinking, alter reality to their liking, additionally, their source of Power, Abeir-Toril is the same source of power Ao draws from, or he maybe himself, and Ao is able to manipulate and give the Gods power and take it away without a second thought, this was shown when the Tablets of Fate where stolen.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Believed to have created the multiverse. And lesser gods beating greater gods is mostly PIS. Vecna's avatar was stat boosted by a being equal to LoP, and even then LoP was beating him in to the point where all his strength was down to the point where a group of adventurers could take him on.

Higher dimensional constructs themselves are what I'm considering an outlier here, since it makes A. a huge difference in our tiering system and B. is brought up incredibly scarcely.

I know what Alter Reality is, it was depicted in my blog about common abilities that most/all deities and god tiers should have. All of the info here has been reviewed before. Ao is High 2-A for his feat (though if we're truly using a composite we may have to upgrade him and LoP regardless, purely because of the fact that the Abyss seems to be its own multiverse, and some other stuff, but whatever) of insta-wiping all gods and demoting them to whatever status.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> I stopped reading the rest of this, I demand a source. Our party is suddenly level 25+ and is gonna get higher due to time jumps. Gimme dat source.

From the Epic Level Handbook. There's also a deity-like being of insects that you can fight called a Vermiurge. I vaguely remember someone trying to make a Devastation Vermiurge


> Demigods being able to affect the seal, even if only in a very minor way it's still affecting a Seal capable of keeping the Multiverse together, then we know that Vecna's Avatar was did permament harm to the Multiverse before we stop him, so there's that.

The Sigil is like a Torus completely round with no center point and that's what the multiverse revolves around. A god, and any god from Demi to Greater, acts like a Black Hole whenever on a plane. Their divine presence forces them to become the center point of the plane unless there's other gods around. When Vecna was in the Sigil, he was forcing a center point on a plane that has none. If he or any god stayed for to long the Torus would collapse into a circle and the multiverse would be destroyed.

So Demigods affecting the seal is not due to their power, its due to the unique interaction of their godly properties and the Sigil's shape. Its why the Lady of Pain doesn't allow any Gods to enter the Sigil and kills anyone who worships her, since if she becomes any degree of Divine she can no longer be on the Sigil and that opens a door for the Gods to enter which would destroy the Multiverse.


> And lesser gods beating greater gods is mostly PIS

It wasn't a Greater God who split Io but a Primordial.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Greater god equivalent beings in power, then. But yeah, I know.

also thank you for the source im gonna go get the D&D equivalent of raid now

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Should gods have abstract existence or not?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think so. Plenty of Gods can die even if they control fundamental aspects of the world. However there are a few gods (that don't have profiles) that can come back from the dead if people believe hard enough in them. One god, the God of Humans in 4e, can be brought back if a single person speaks its name. Problem is that no one knows it since Asmodeus fears his return and actively searches and destroys any sources mentioning it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think so. Plenty of Gods can die even if they control fundamental aspects of the world.

I don't think this is the case for most of them, though. Even most gods can't permanently kill other gods without specific outside circumstances, which is mostly due to said abstract nature. For instance, Nerull was supposed to kill Obad-Hai every winter, iirc. Obviously, Obad-Hai always came back, because he isn't so much a physical being that can be killed as he is an idea.

Likewise, the Raven Queen didn't kill Nerull by overpowering him or something. She stole the source of his power, causing him to grow weak and her to grow strong. This allowed her to take his divinity and then erase his name from history in an attempt to ensure he wouldn't return. This is typically how a god would go about killing another god.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So what are you suggesting? High 2-A Gods, Low 1-C Ao and LOP, and 1-C Lumi?

I genuinely don't know.

But if this is canon D&D lore, it at the very least affects the Luminous Being, as well as the Far Realm.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally, I think it should be dismissed as an outlier. While we're using composites, this is something that heavily upgrades the entire verse by a very large amount and is never mentioned after BD&D.

>as well as the Far Realm.

On this note, I have heard that the Far Realm was introduced in 2e. Dunno what this would effect though. More LOP justification?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Even if it's an outlier for the gods (which I honestly don't know if it is? They rarely have some set limit or general level of power), there isn't really a reason for this to be considered an outlier for a god tier being with zero established limit within the setting.

I don't think the Lady ever altered the Far Realm, though? I'd have to look through Die Vecna Die! again, but isn't the Far Realm supposed to be beyond all of D&D's multiverses? It's described as "conceptually larger" than them, or something to that effect.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So give Lumi and the LOP a "possible" rating?

Tier: At least 2-A | High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C

At least Multiverse level+ (Killed the Greater Deity Aoskar with a single thought. Far more powerful than any normal deity. Vastly superior to Vecna after he had gained the power of a Greater Deity and been empowered by the Serpent) | High Multiverse level+ (Repaired and restructured the full extent of the 2nd Edition Multiverse which contains an infinite number of infinitely large realms. Her true form is strong enough to instantly destroy the multiverse. Due to being able to alter and shape the multiverse in its entirety, she should at least be in the same general league as beings such as Ao the Overdeity), possibly Low Complex Multiverse Level (According to Mystara there's at least 5 or 6 geometric dimensions)

And

Tier: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C

Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in a realm beyond the entirety of both the Forgotten Realms' infinite multiverse and the realms which encompass it and are outside of it, dwarfing entities like Ao, the Overgod of Realmspace, who transcends all of creation. Tasked with the creation and destruction of universes and realities both big and small, and is utterly beyond all rules and associations that arise from within the game's universe. Most commonly thought and accepted to be a stand-in for the DM of a Dungeons and Dragons game, representing the reader of a Forgotten Realms setting.), possibly Complex Multiverse level (Transcendent over 6 known geometric dimensions)


> Far Realm supposed to be beyond all of D&D's multiverses?

Yes it is. I posted the one quote where it talks about how the Far Realm transcedes over the standard multiverses in 3e DnD. Presumably it does the same in 2e. Actually including the Far Realm into the Mystara quote that would man Lumi 8-D wouldn't it? Assuming he's above it of course.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's kind of tough to say.

If used, I assume it could be visualized in a way similar to:

Most Outer Planes = 5-D

Beings like Ao/Overdeities and the Lady, who exist beyond the normal cosmology = 6-D

The Far Realm, a place conceptually larger than all multiverses and can reach all of them = at least 7-D

The Luminous Being, who transcends everything in the setting = at least 8-D


Something along those lines, but I'm not entirely sure. The main issue is, even if we want to say "normal gods can't affect places like this", we know there are beings who exist beyond these places.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So maybe Vecna, Wizard, and Orcus get a "possibly 2A" rating. Gruumsh, Io, Dendar, and Corellon stay the same. LOP, Ao, and Lumi get the "possibly Low 1-C/1-C" rating. That work?


Also @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot could you add this justifcation to the Avatars of Gruumsh and Corello ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am against the spatial dimensions thing still. It seems like a very large outlier.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Qawsedf

Maybe? I'm still not entirely sure.

@Mr. Bambu

The issue is that there isn't really something for this to be an outlier against. We rarely get established limits on the gods, and some of them (especially certain lesser deities) have extremely varying levels of power that are almost never properly defined. In order for this to be an outlier, we'd need some sort of statement or showing of gods being described as unable to effect higher-dimensional space, or specifically struggling with something whose established limit was far less. The above would then need to be the overwhelming norm amongst their portrayals for this to be an explicit outlier.

The D&D Gods are often so nebulously defined that it is difficult to find either an established low-end or established hard cap for their power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Maybe? I'm still not entirely sure.

The "possibly" rating is the best I got since it doesn't dismiss the Mystara WoG but doesn't completly rely on it either. Actually it might be good if someone makes a blog about how we handle the D&D multiverse considering it varies from edition to edition.

Unless you meant about the Avatars. This is their current statement

Attack Potency: Planet level (Capable of battling the Leviathan, which would have destroyed the world should it awaken)

The image I linked would be this claims justifcation. I just link having it linked in the profile to prevent future questions/misunderstandings.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Azzy We have a scenario in which a few vague statements are supposed to make a rather large change in tiering. That should be considered an outlier in of itself, at least in regards to this wiki.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azzy We have a scenario in which a few vague statements are supposed to make a rather large change in tiering. That should be considered an outlier in of itself, at least in regards to this wiki.

Do you mean a statistical outlier amongst all the statements of the gods' powers?

Because if we're being super specific, there are barely any.

The quotes we use for the gods are some of very few that actually say something along the lines of "a god can do this" or "a god has roughly this much influence/power".

The vast majority of quotes about gods in D&D say something like "a god is a really big strong guy who controls fundamental forces of reality and usually mortals can't comprehend it" and if we're lucky, a few other things.

I should also clarify that most multiversal quotes about the gods just specify "the multiverse". These quotes aren't changing anything other than how big we know the multiverse actually is.

Discussing if it should be used is one thing, but I can't really see how it's an "outlier" by our traditional terms/usage.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's why I think a possibly rating is a pretty good compromise. Since while its not technically an outlier it comes from a one off source and hasn't really been brought up again.

 

[Udlmaster]

And, naturally, there's nothing to suppose it's the former, we're just going around getting sources for the Multiverse and the Gods and stringing them together.

At least, that's what I'm doing, but I'm bias anyway.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's part of the issue with D&D. It's not one setting. It's a multitude of settings strung together under the banner of "''Dungeons & Dragons''".

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yes, although they're all canon to each other.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you mean "these multiverses all exist in the same canon", then yeah. We also know that the Far Realm is supposedly >>> all these multiverses and that the same Far Realm threatens each one, so there's that, too.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But in this case the quote comes from BD&D when the standard D&D system is sprung from AD&D 1e. While both are D&D they're different series. But in any case I think scaling everyone to the quote based solely on Mystara is iffy. But a possibly rating fits best since you can dismiss it or accept it.

Vecna's second key gets a possibly 2A rating, Ao and the LOP get a possibly Low 1-C rating, and Lumi gets a possibly 1-C.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Lesser gods being 2-A would make demon lords 2-C and thus player characters 2-A which makes no sense. But possibly Low 1-C ao and LoP is fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Demon Lords are already 2-C though. The strong ones at least. And canonically wizards have messed with beings of that power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Mystara did get AD&D support, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure Mystara's immortals (not gods/deities) aren't supposed to be as "abstract" as the gods/deities in the rest of the setting, yet they're the things primarily scaling to this stuff.

This is, again, part of the issue with having multiple settings that are entirely different multiverses.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm okay with Possibly, but yeah, scaling to one secluded quote rather than tons of secluded quotes isn't something we should go around doing.

Lesser gods should be At least 2-C (don't think we ever found really great justification except for Abyss stuff), possibly High 2-A (since we wanna jump tiers with dimensional stuff)

Intermediate+ would be At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A

Ao/LoP/etc would be At least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C

Lumi would be At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C

I really don't like scaling to one thing when currently we scale to many multiversal/universal feats, but if I'm outvoted I can accept this.

 

[Udlmaster]

And if Immortals can do that, the Gods are naturally far far more powerful, so it still scales to the same point. Also, if the LoP is using only a Infinite degree of her strength to stop Vecna, then Vecna (With Serpent's protection/Greater God) Should be High 2-A

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Uh. LoP was restricting herself and even then she was nearly breaking the multiverse, hence 2-A.