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Dungeons & Dragons Gods and Demigods Revision

Yeah there's alternate multiverses with different rules. There's one multiverses comprised of giant insects that have a higher CR than Tarrasques.
 
And note that it says the "Gods" imprisoned Tharizdun not Ao, meaning that it is very well possible that the Gods can create the Abyss, a 2-A structure, and build all the parts around it too, which, if the Abyss is till only a part of it, which it is, the structure has to be on a 5-D scale, same with the Alternate Multiverse as well.
 
Greater Gods are 2-A, which isn't surprising. Also like other things, Tharizdun doesn't originate from Forgotten Realms, he's an interloper deity. FR Tharizdun Ôëá Greyhawk Tharizdun. You could kill one and it would have no impact on the other.

Also they didn't make the Abyss, just sent him to an alternate multiverse where the Abyss consumed all life in the Multiverse iirc.
 
How, so far, we only know that Ao or some other god created this Multiverse, it's stated enough for that to be the case, so, someone would naturally have to create another Multiverse to hold Tharizdun in.
 
Ao created the Forgotten Realms multiverse, not every multiverse. Even in 4e it stated there were other multiverses like Dark Sun and Greyhawk. Every solar system in D&D is surrounded by a large Crystal Sphere (think a large Dyson Sphere). Gods are either single-sphere or multi-sphere. The FR sphere is connected to small portions of the multiverse which is their version of the outer planes. Ao only has absolute control of these areas in 2e, 3e, and 5e.

For example, someone like Zeus is completly out of Ao's control. He could do nothing about Zeus nor kill him unless Zeus created a proxy in the FR universe. And even then, Ao could only effect that proxy.

So the multiverse where they impronsed Tharizdun is just a random multiverse where the Abyss had won the bloodwar and destroyed the multiverse.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
So the multiverse where they impronsed Tharizdun is just a random multiverse where the Abyss had won the bloodwar and destroyed the multiverse.
Click to expand...
The most interesting thing here is just getting direct confirmation that the Abyss can grow in power far beyond what it's currently at, and that the Demon Lords being able to use it to consume all that exists should the Blood War not keep getting in their way is a very real possibility.
 
Multiverses vary a lot. There's one Multiverse that only has a single ultra powerful/monotheistic deity for example. And another that has two gods, one light and one dark Game of Thrones style.

Also in 2e I think it was confirmed that the winning side of the Blood War would be strong enough to take down the rest of the Multiverse. Heck there's probably a multiverse where the Nine Hell's rule everything or the Gods of Good stamped out the lower planes.
 
I wouldn't doubt that, as winning the Blood War has almost always been treated as a big deal. The retconned-into-a-Greater-Deity Asmodeus should be able to defeat the forces of the Abyss as he is, but for years it's been pretty consistently presented as, "If his side loses the Blood War, Asmodeus is in really deep shit".
 
For more 2A Greater God stuff the D&D Olympians have various Multiversal stuff and are at odds with the Celtic, Norse, and Egyptian pantheon. Odin and Daghdga are noted as Zeus's rivals.
 
According to their section of On Hallowed Ground the Titans embody multiversal concepts and the Greeks beat them. They also shattered part of Mount Olympus, which is a mountain of infinite size that connects multiple outer planes together. It also states that the Greek Gods could kill Gaia who embodies the Material Plane, but don't since they would kill all of their followers which in turn would kill them.
 
Assuming my memory is correct, Forgotten Realms deities also did not require worship before the Avatar Crisis. Ao changed how divinity worked in FR since he felt all the Gods (besides Helm I guess) weren't doing their jobs so he gave that limitation for motivation.

Anyways should this thread be closed or does it need more explination as to why Demigods are not 2A? Or has the topic shifted from 2A Demigods to High 2A Greater Gods?
 
> I'm also not sure if Intermediate is supposed to be his current ranking or Dawn War ranking. I'd have to check Complete Divine.

Monster Manual IV and Complete Divine list him as Intermediate. I believe 4e just uses "God" and "Greater God". So he could be a Greater God in that edition. Which is pretty notable if only due to the fact that I don't think that many people worship him.
 
Sure. As a note, what's your view on High 2A Greater Gods/Gods in general.
 
That would be nifty. But I don't think they have any feats above 2A. Maybe the Brahmin in 2e? It's one with the multiverse and part of everything. Though that might only be 2A still. On Hallows Ground and some other Planescape stuff suggests the Gods/Greater Gods can ascended to a higher plane of existence, but while that's tier High 2A its also not a profile or scaleable.

Wonder if we can make a Serpant profile actually. Or would that be to vague/pointless?
 
The Serpent is kinda tough to pin down, but it should still be comparable to the Lady, at least to some degree. Die Vecna Die! seems to drive that point home, quite a few times.

I'm not sure of what other stuff it would have on its profile, aside from the stuff all abstract entities in D&D have, as well as anything it specifically granted Vecna.
 
It is the embodiment of Arcane Magic/Energies. Dunno what that would be as a power though.

You think the Fighter/Other classes should get a profile? Or is that reliant on to much Wizard scaling? Though a min-max fighter can kill a Tarrasque by himself which is country level right now.

Actually two people that really need a profile are Asmodeus and Demogorgon
 
Other composite classes could probably get profiles, but their tiering would be much the same as the wizard.

Speaking of the Tarrasque, that thing is definitely in need of an upgrade of some sort. I'm just trying to find a way to access certain issues of Dragon magazine.

Asmodeus and Demogorgon would be great to have pages for, as they're pretty major players in the grand scheme of things. Some more notable deities, such as Tiamat and Bahamut, would also be good.
 
> I'm just trying to find a way to access certain issues of Dragon magazine.

I can PM you a link to a place with all of the magazines if you want.

> Asmodeus and Demogorgon would be great to have pages for, as they're pretty major players in the grand scheme of things. Some more notable deities, such as Tiamat and Bahamut, would also be good.

Asmodeus probably needs multiple keys. "Avatar, In-Realm, Greater God". Maybe four keys if we want to include the story of him creating the Multiverse and being part of the Ancient Brethren.
 
I'd definitely appreciate it.

The fourth key for Ahriman/Asmodeus may or may not be entirely necessary, as said story still suggests his power is "Greater Deity level", just that he's one of the strongest (I'm assuming we're talking about Guide to Hell).
 
Got a Far Realm quote from Dragon #358 page 58

"The world as we know it is a poison to some, a canker whose very existence is a constant irritant to something larger, more vast than anything sane mortal minds can comprehend. What we take for order and nature is in fact the aberration, for the Far Realm is vast beyond all concept. It is what lies beyond the infinite possibility. It is the infinite of impossibility."

A book in FR also confirms that there's only one Far Realm threatening every Multiverse.

Also yeah, I'm talking about the Guide to Hell book where he was part of the ouroboros that created the Outer Planes/Multiverse
 
The heck. I was reading some Mystara stuff and they suddenly confirm 5th dimensional geometric space. If only this scaled to other DnD stuff.

Reading into it Mystara actually has at least 6 confirmed dimensions.
 
Actually wait, they may scale. I'm reading up more on this and there might be stuff saying Mystara inhabits the same space as the AD&D multiverse. Assuming this is true, that means that D&D space has 5 or 6 geometric dimensions. Which would bump up (if no on else) the Lady of Pain and Lumi.
 
So I collected all the scans

Some issues

  • If accepted we're scaling people to a spin-off game
  • The main D&D multiverse has never been described this way to my knowledge, even places like the Far Realm. So its also a bit of a strech
  • The dimension seem like they're a bit looser in Mystara than IRL, since I don't think this is actually possible


I don't think it should be accepted, but if it is it'd bump up LoP and Lumi by a dimensional level.
 
Well, if I remember, AD&D is 1st and 2nd editions of D&D, so they would be completely valid, as well, that's literally one of the best and clearest examples of D&D using Dimensions we've got so far.
 
It goes OD&D -> BD&D and AD&D 1e -> BD&D Revised and AD&D 2e -> 3e (which was originally supposed to be AD&D 3e but they dropped the A iirc) -> 3.5e -> 4e -> 5e.

The statements are clear cut here, I just don't know if we should use them. Just seems a bit weird.
 
The issue is that even in a composite world its an outlier statement.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
So I collected all the scans
Some issues

  • If accepted we're scaling people to a spin-off game
  • The main D&D multiverse has never been described this way to my knowledge, even places like the Far Realm. So its also a bit of a strech
  • The dimension seem like they're a bit looser in Mystara than IRL, since I don't think this is actually possible


I don't think it should be accepted, but if it is it'd bump up LoP and Lumi by a dimensional level.
Click to expand...
Maybe possibly Low 1-C for LoP and possibly 1-C for luminous being?
 
If accepted the gods would all become varying degrees of 2A, Ao would stay High 2A since he would be 5D scaling wise, the LoP would have affected ay least 6 dimensions which would be Low 1C, and since Lumi is above everyone he'd be 1C.

However, if we're including everything from Mystara there's beings called The Old Ones who "transcend the Immortals (Gods) to the same degree they transcend mortals". They exist on all five known dimensional planes and can see into the sixth. Plus they created the Dimensional Void that blocks access to higher dimensional understanding in Mystara

Including these guys LoP might be 7D and Lumi 8D. Or who knows, maybe they're still around so they'd still only be the tiers you mentioned (Low 1-C and 1-C).
 
Oh a possibly rating? Like "Tier: High 2A, possibly Low 1-C" then for the Low 1-C mention the Mystara stuff?
 
Well, you're also forgetting, Mystra is also a God, a Greater God, she's not a Overdeity or such, who are far above the Gods, she herself is still a God, and the Gods are all relative to each other in various ways.
 
Mystra is the FR goddess of Magic, Mystara is the campaign world where all the dimensional stuff comes from.
 
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