Dungeons & Dragons Gods and Demigods Revision

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I really don't like scaling to one thing when currently we scale to many multiversal/universal feats, but if I'm outvoted I can accept this.

I don't even know if we should scale.

I don't even know what the scaling should be right now, since in-universe deity scaling is already pretty ******.

I said it, by definition, isn't an outlier by our standards, and that's mostly it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Mystara got one AD&D module iirc. But after that it was shutdown and never mentioned officially again (outside of Wizards giving support to a fan community).

Immortals aren't as abstract as post AD&D 1e gods, but they share basically the same amount of power and fulfill a very similar role.

I'm not saying we dismiss the quote anymore, just not use it to scale everything. A possibly rating works for now until a agreeded upon multiverse structure is worked out. I think Mr.Bambu's tier list works for now.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Mr

Not the case, as Qawsedf said, she doesn't affect the seal because she's not technically a God, all gods basically become M╠Âa╠Âr╠Ây╠ ╠ÂS╠Âu╠Âe╠Âs The center of where they are, as such, because Sigil doesn't have a Center, this begins to affect the Seal, as such, the LoP cannot become a God or she would damage the Seal with her presence, that's the reason why she kills those who try to make her a God, but this only applies to her Avatar, which is just an infinite portion of her.

Her true form destroys the Muliverse no matter where she is in the Multiverse.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I would also like to point out that a large issue in tiering the entirety of D&D is that even D&D has no idea what it wants to do or convey with certain ideas.

Seriously, 3e's Manual of the Planes directly compares existing in multiple layers of the Far Realm to being higher-dimensional, and then goes on to say these layers are like small areas that range between an inch and a mile thick (in an area where distance is supposed to be meaningless?) and that moving through them is thought based. I get that it's meant to convey "ooooOOOOOOOOoooooo! weird realm we don't understaaaaaaaaand!", but a lot of it just ends up making you go "huh?".

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dimensions in a lot of stuff is synonymous with different universes or layers rather than like, String or Geometric dimensions.

Anyways do you agree with the proposed rating by Mr. Bambu? If so then can you update the profiles or unlock the profiles for updating? I'll get to work on some type of Multiverse blog.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I guess so? If anything, it somewhat mitigates the issue of, "Greater Gods = Lesser Gods x infinity", but I'm still going to be trying to find something really concrete that could potentially make everything a lot easier.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Welll to make things easier in Mystara there's like 5 or 6 tiers of God. While the top tier can stomp the bottom tier, they're still ultimately 4-D. So I can't see a 5-D or High 2A tier from cross scaling without the person in question transcending the Gods like Ao, the LOP, or the Old Ones (Overgods from Mystara).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Since its been over 15 hours with no one disagreeing with the changes does that mean it can be added now?

 

[Antvasima]

The parts that Azathoth has accepted should probably be fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vecna, The Lady of Pain, Ao, and The Lumonius Being need their profiles unlocked then.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Demon Lords are already 2-C though. The strong ones at least. And canonically wizards have messed with beings of that power.

Yes, 2-C player characters I'm fine with, but 2-A seems like wank for PCs.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well Dragonlance technically has a 2-A mage NPC. But he's a pretty enormous outlier considering everything else.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, Dragonlance seems to be his own case, but as for the Vecna, LoP stuff, Vecna with Serpent's protection should be classified as High 2-A, as if the LoP's true form is Low 1-C, 6-D, then her infinith form, her avatar's power, would be High 2-A, 5-D, and it took Vecna's full power to stop her from being ejected from Sigil.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why should Vecna be High 2A? He's still only 4th Dimensional, even as a Greater God. The LOP holding back can be whatever she wants. Heck her avatar form could only be 3-C and her true form High 2A.

 

[Udlmaster]

You need to read the full comment, Qa, if you read all of it, you'd know I said: "Vecna with Serpent's blessing" because, the LoP's Avatar having 1/infinity of her power would be High 2-A, 6-D / Infinity = 5-D, Vecna used all of his power and was able to stop 5-D.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wouldn't we just scale the Lady's avatar to Aoskar, anyway?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hm... Maybe vecna with serpent boost should be "at least 2-A"?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What Azathoth said. Vecna was barely resisting the avatar's powers, which can easily kill multi-sphere planer Greater Deities and people who can kill multi-sphere planer Deities (like Orcus with the Last Word). So Vecna would just be slightly superior to a high level 2A being.

Also @ZacharyGrossman273 Vecna's form with that boost (his Greater God mode) is already 2A

 

[Udlmaster]

That's why I was making the distiction between just Vecna and Vecna with Serpent's blessing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Greater God Vecna is the one that attacked the Sigil and had the Serpent's magical ritual increasing his strength. Vecna during that arc was "merely" an extremely strong Greater Deity in the multiverse and not anything more. Vecna's strength > (barely mind you) Avatar LOP's power > Greater Gods/Last Word Orcus. So he'd still only be 2-A/4-D

 

[Udlmaster]

But, again, not at all, LoP's Avatar would be 1/infinith of her full power, that's still 5-D, Vecna stoping 5-D power is 5-D.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The LOP's avatar is as strong as her feats suggest. Those feats being: Killing a Greater God (2-A) and WoG saying Last Word Orcus couldn't beat her in a fight (2-A). Vecna (a Greater God canonically during this) would only be a higher degree of 2A rather than High 2A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I wouldn't say Vecna's strength > Last Word Orcus. The Lady still believed enough other gods working together could defeat Vecna, while this wasn't the case with Orcus.

His durability and resistance was just greater than what the Lady could output without destroying everything she wanted to protect.

If anything, I'd say he's maybe a foil to LW Orcus, only focusing more on durability instead of raw power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In Vecna's case it wasn't just other gods working together, but other gods working together with powerful artifacts that hard countered some of Vecna's stuff, a party of strong mortals, and Vecna still being constantly weakened by the LOP. In Orcus's case its just a 1 vs 1 thing.

> His durability and resistance was just greater than what the Lady could output without destroying everything she wanted to protect.

Which is what I was trying to get across. Vecna's power (or resistance I guess) was slightly above or even with what the LOP's avatar could output. Anymore power would require her true form which would kill the multiverse anyways and any less power no one could realistically stop him without being of similar godly status which would only quicken the multiverse collapsing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In Orcus's case its just a 1 vs 1 thing.

Not for bad ending Orcus. An entire group of Greater Deities wouldn't even challenge him until they could nullify the Last Word.

Though this is LW + the Wand, that I'm referring to.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I got my forms mixed up for Orcus. So I can see your point about Vecna being more durable/resistant while Orcus has greater AP. But in either situation both would only be 2-A.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, "At least 2-A, possibly High 2-A" if we actually go through with these updates, but yeah.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why possibly High 2-A though? Both would still only be 4th Dimensional and not 5th Dimensional. Nor would either really transcend the others to the point of being High 2-A. Considering the LOP's scaling for Vecna and Orcus still being susceptible to Greater God magic.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because if we're going with Mystara scaling (to some degree, at least), most immortals are 4-D beings possessing some degree of 5-D power to actually affect their realms. The same way we have numerous 3-D characters who wield some degree of 4-D power.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think extrapolating that one infinitely small piece of LoP's power for her avatar being 5-D because we believe her to be 6-D is a bit off. We have plenty of characters who don't follow this reasoning.

Vecna is 2-A for causing Lady's restricted form to nearly destroy the multiverse whilst suppressing him. He doesn't need an upgrade.

Again, I am heavily against adding this higher dimensional stuff.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So you're saying the following get a possibly rating

• Vecna's lesser god form is 2A

• The Greater Gods are High 2A

• Last Word is High 2A

• Ao and The Lady of Pain are Low 1-C

• Lumi is 1-C

> affect their realms

I'm Mystara not every plane is 4-D or 5-D. Probably would need to look more into it for confirmation about godly realms, but to my memory they would only be 4-D I think.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like I said, keyword if. I'd like to find something to help better scale everything at this level, as some current scaling itself is also pretty weird, but that isn't really feasible with this franchise. So I'm just hoping for some sort of miracle.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally I think we should just add the possibly rating to Lesser Gods, Greater Gods keep their stuff, and the LOP/Ao/Lumi get their possible ratings. Greater Gods even in Mystara don't have solid High 2-A statements until they ascend, but once that happens they become Low 1-C (at least as a group).

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot @Mr. Bambu I... uh. Found two more quote

• Seventh dimension confirmed

• The immortals believe there are infinite dimensions but cannot see past the fifth due to the barrier placed by the Old Ones.

 

[Udlmaster]

So they are High 2-A.

Also, it's middle to bottom right where the quote is, if you're wondering.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

god dammit

So the first one doesn't seem too important. But the second one has clear mention and backing of infinite dimensions with "immortals" (I assume gods?) being 5th dimensional, which is High 2-A.

This means all gods would be High 2-A, I think. Demigods shouldn't be too badly affected.

Notably, with infinite dimensions... the creator of the multiverse itself would be High 1-B.

Still not sure on this stuff. All seems very inconsistent because of this site's tiering system.

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh, and there might be Infinite Dimensions?

Also, in the Middle it says this:

"From this it is easily proved that Immortals, who perceive four dimensions, must exist in Five or more."

Also, it even says that the Old Ones knew that Immortal power can ascend past all boundaries, I.E being stronger than they are, so they limited them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well that's


a twist.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> "immortals" (I assume gods?)

Immortals are Mystara's/BD&D's name for Gods. The main difference between them and normal D&D gods is that they're all ascended mortals while a decent amount of D&D gods either just sorta sprung into existence or were born into it.

> Notably, with infinite dimensions... the creator of the multiverse itself would be High 1-B.

1-A lumi tbh

> All seems very inconsistent because of this site's tiering system.

If they quotes weren't weird before, they're extremly weird now. Unless we upgrade the LOP, Ao, and Vecna to like. High 1-B or 1-A.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Although, on the infinite dimensions one, it says the Immortals aren't sure and can't back up their theories.