Dungeons and Dragons range updated

[Elizhaa]

Credit to @Mr. Bambu From this thread:

1. Every old Demon Lord (lesser than Gods like Vecna) has infinite multiversal range despite their tiers.

A demon lord's summoned form (weaker form, mind you)

created the chimera creature present throughout the whole multiverse by just appearing on the Prime Material. Demon lord in question is Demogorgo

 

[Xulrev]

Demogorgon created the first Chimeras, as stated and this is true, but the creatures are capable of reproduction according to Elminster's Ecologies from 2nd Edition.

I think it's a bit of an overstatement to proclaim Demogorgon created every Chimera ever in every plane ever when it simply states he twisted the immediately surrounding creatures into amalgamations.

We simply do not have enough information present here to make the rather large presumption of multiversal range, especially when we are extrapolating from a statement so simple and concise (specifically referring to the first chimeras, specifically referencing only the Material Plane).

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Confused as to what line in that quote displays multiversal+ range.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

One sec

Basically I could do this, this being compile all the multiversal+ statements, but here's the most blatant one I had saved on my old PC (the one I'm using now). Didn't really expect this CRT, sorta got blind-sided, but here yah go.

Here's one brought by Azzy awhile back.

 

[Elizhaa]

It looks like great supporting evidences, @Mr. Bambu.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I dunno if Tiamat supports Demogorgan and Lesser Gods as having multiversal range. Tiamat is an odd exception to the rule in terms of Godhood. She's a lesser deity that's more powerful than an Intermediate Deity and with help of her other Lesser God brother, killed a being that slayed a Greater God.

Even Azathoth found her really weird to scale and outside of the norm.

 

[Xulrev]

Gotta go with Qaws here; if Statement X is made for Character X, then Statement Y made for Character Y hardly counts as supporting evidence unless there is a strict definition and powerful evidence for Character X=Character Y in all respects. As Qaws points out, Tiamat is vastly stronger than Demogorgon in pretty much every way possible by direct scaling. I can't in good faith agree with her statement being applicable to someone incomparably weaker than herself.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tiamat is only a lesser deity. "Vastly stronger" and "incomparably weaker" don't line up when demon lords can and regularly do become lesser deities on their own (hell, look at Lolth). Originally she was an Archdevil, which would make her comparable to said Demon Lords. And by originally, I mean, by the time we start, meaning after this multiversal+ range feat was performed, since that was at the literal beginning of time.

 

[Xulrev]

Lolth became a deity via knowledge of how distribution of the divine power of gods worked post-Time of Troubles, honestly, and after having forcibly absorbed other portfolios from an assassinated deity. I think that one's a bit of stretch to support the argument.

And again, as Qaws pointed out, Tiamat and another Lesser Deity slew a Greater Deity-level creature. She is a pretty ghastly anomaly.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Tiamat is only a lesser deity

A lesser deity who has an Intermediate Deity subservient to her and one that has killed a Primordial that destroyed a Greater God with help from her brother. She's atypical for the ranking.

don't line up when demon lords can and regularly do become lesser deities on their own (hell, look at Lolth).

Lolth was a god before she went to the Abyss. She was part of the Seldarine and fled after corrupting some of the elves/attacking Corellon during his battle with Gruumsh.

Originally she was an Archdevil

Wut. Unless you mean Tiamat, then I still think that's wrong. She was always a Goddess and the child of Io. The sole time she wasn't was all the way back in Dragon #38 where she's still called a god.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tiamat is listed as an Archdevil in 1e, still a member of the pantheon. Source is Dragon #75, so even much later she is listed as such.

Regardless of the fact that she has higher tier deities below her, by the game's standards she is a lesser deity at best. Same reason we wouldn't put Wee Jas above Boccob.

Regarding Lolth, but you cannot deny that she was a Demon Lord that ascended, and we also have texts stating that Demon Lords are immensely close to deities, just below. This doesn't matter much, since again, Tiamat would have been classified as an Archdevil at the time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

regarding Lolth, but you cannot deny that she was a Demon Lord that ascended

I totally can though

Same reason we wouldn't put Wee Jas above Boccob.

We put Wee Jas below Boccob because she explicitly limits herself to be weaker than Boccob. In her Greater God form its stated that she would be a threat to his power and control over magic.

Tiamat would have been classified as an Archdevil at the time.

The source quote you're using comes from 5e where Tiamat's origin is being the child of Io. You're using an old school 1e origin that has been changed and kept consistent since 2e as evidence for something.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. She lost that, however, and became a Abyssal Lord.

2. Even in 1e she is listed as a child of Io. That hasn't changed at all, merely her deific status. In 2e she transitioned to being an out-and-out Lesser Deity. But in 1e, when this feat would be relevant, she was both part of the dragon pantheon and an Archdevil. I've just stated she was still a child of Io, so this doesn't contradict any new lore. There's no reason not to consider this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

1. She lost that, however, and became a Abyssal Lord.

She never lost her godhood. She's always been a goddess, its just that after she moved to the Abyss she also became a Abyssal Lord. In fact she got stronger after moving to the Abyss than she was originally with Corellon

But in 1e, when this feat would be relevant

Why would it be relevant in 1e when the Multiverse was rebooted twice since then? Also her being an Archdevil contradicts the lore of Devils since its Asmodeus' who determines that position and he's never given it to Tiamat before.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I am gonna say that these are pretty much irrelevant points, since the lore still states a Lesser Deity was capable of Multiversal+ range. Regardless...

The multiverse was rebooted in-lore to certain extents, but stuff that isn't directly contradicted (as I just proved above, it really isn't contradicted in this case) shouldn't be discarded for no reason simply because things have changed. Much has stayed the same through those resets, if we have no reason to assume it was changed then we shouldn't assume such. Tiamat merely gained rank.

 

[Qawsedf234]

since the lore still states a Lesser Deity was capable of Multiversal+ range

I'm totally fine with Lesser Gods having that range. My issue is only present if we're using Tiamat as the basis of the scaling since she's outside of the norm.

but stuff that isn't directly contradicted (as I just proved above, it really isn't contradicted in this case)

But it is contradicted. Tiamat is forced in the Nine-Hells in 5e due to a curse by some long dead Giant God and as established in 5e the ruler of the first layer of Hell was Zariel and later Bel. Tiamat has never ruled the first layer after 2e fleshed out Baator to my knowledge. So using an old 1e origin is just a bad move in my view.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It says those rulers, yes, but does it actually say Tiamat was never the ruler? Otherwise no direct contradiction exists.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There's no source that implies anyone ruled Avernus before Zariel. She met Asmodeus super early considering he didn't even posses the Ruby Rod when she nearly attacked him.

Primus weighed Asmodeus's words and listened patiently as angel after angel testified to his crimes. Hours turned to days and days into weeks as more and more of his sins entered the court record.

Even Primus's patience has its limits, and in time, the remaining angels who were eager to testify were told that only a few more would be allowed to speak. A brawl broke out when one angel, Zariel, pushed her way to the front and demanded to be heard. As the scuffle turned into a battle, Asmodeus looked on with a smirk.

In the end, Primus declined to issue a definitive judgment. He rebuked the angels for their descent into infighting, but didn't punish Asmodeus for his evil ways. He did, however, order Asmodeus to forever carry a mighty artifact, the Ruby Rod, that would guarantee his adherence to law. The artifact, which has remained at Asmodeus's side ever since, grants him and his underlings the right to enter into contracts with mortals for their souls but unleashes an inescapable punishment upon any devil that breaches such a contract.

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes page. 10