It's time: D&D upgrades of 1-A and High 1-A

[Qawsedf234]

Hello again.

So quite some time ago I made a cosmology blog and it was accepted. One of the ratings was Low 1-A, however, upon reading more into it I believe I made a mistake with that rating.

Justifications for 1-A Old Ones

So currently the rating is based on this album. In it, the narration confirms that the Multiverse is comprised of an infinite set of geometric spatial dimensions:

Let's back up a bit. When you imagined a line to represent one dimension, you also imagined the line to be somewhere—on a piece of paper, for example. But that paper
exists in at least two dimensions. Thus, for a line to have any real location or meaning, it must exist within a two-dimensional or larger space. The line itself describes only one dimension, but its location must be described by two.

Similarly, a two-dimensional plus sign can certainly exist alone, but to have real meaning, it must be located within a three-dimensional space from which it may be observed.
The conclusion of this line of reasoning is that any being who perceives a given number of dimensions must exist in a space that has a greater number of dimensions to perceive those dimensions; at least one more and possibly several. From this, it is easily proved that Immortals, who can perceive four dimensions, must exist in five or more. Immortal discussions of mathematics, philosophy, and other topics led them to this conclusion.

They further deduced that an infinite number of dimensions must exist, since each depends on the one "above" it to exist. They have attempted to explore the five obvious dimensions and to discover others.

The Old Ones were originally rated as being Low 1-A based on the following reason:

Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level​

Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions. More information on the concept is available on this page.

Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.

However, upon talking to others and rereading the FAQ, I believe this rating is not proper for them. The main reason being the following:

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?​

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

I believe that based on the above, the Old Ones should qualify as 1-A as they are completely transcendent beyond physical space. To post scans

From the above text:

One success could have been chance, but the second arrival proved that the great experiment known as the Multiverse would The Multiverse serve its purpose. The Old Ones continue to watch and wait for other daring Hierarchs. And someday when they are satisfied, when their unknown goals have been reached— someday the Old Ones will return.

This set does not attempt to fully describe the Old Ones. We cannot even fully describe their servants, the Immortals, nor their vast realm of the Multiverse. And no future volume will provide details on the Old Ones, for their powers transcend the framework of any mere game. To reduce them to game terms would trivialize their power, which is of an order far greater than the Immortals'.

The Old Ones are prepared to wait indefinitely, for Time has no hold over them. If any player character succeeds in the great journey, not merely achieving Hierarch status but proving his or her superiority by doing it twice—well, no higher goal can be attained, and no reward is too great. The player wins and his character vanishes. And that is the final end of this game.

We have that the Old Ones considered the Multiverse to be an "experiment" and that the narration given states that their power "transcend the framework of any mere game", ending that a player character Immortal if ascended is removed from the game since they're beyond anything inside of it.

To add, since that might not be enough, I'm going to quote Bruce Heard (one of Mystara's big authors) when he talked about the Immortals

Along with any DM and the players who constantly mold the imaginary universe in which their heroes dwell, I share the unlimited power of the Old Ones. In that regards, can I or any DM create entire universes? Indeed! I am omnipotent? Of course! Can I, in a blink of eye, destroy billions of mortals and their gods? Yes, for I am the very substance of all energy, thought, matter, time, and entropy in all the worlds of which I dream. They are mere figments of my imagination! I think, therefore they are. <smile once more>.

What would Rad remember of all this? He'd recall nothing at all if we wished it so (it's good to be the DM, isn't it?) or perhaps this:

"The Immortal stood on a huge wooden plateau, staring around him at a new and bizarre universe. Strewn about were oddly shaped, multi-coloured objects with numbers on them. Statues of painted lead lay about, silent parodies of heroes brandishing their swords at unseen dangers. A large crystal cylinder stood incongruously in the distance, filled with a bubbly, black ichor. The Immortal visitor had a moment of panic when, suddenly, a gigantic mountain in the distance shifted on its base, seemingly leaning forward.

"But a mountain it wasn't. There, behind a colossal wall showing scenes of dragons, lizardmen, and warriors, appeared an insanely huge person. Pointing a gargantuan finger at the Immortal, he thundered: "I liked you better before. I shall keep you out of Mystara until things calm down, and then, I shall send you back with the thought that you only are a reflection of my dreams. You shall meditate about this when you are not fighting the forces of darkness in Glantri. Yes, I think that will be fine."

"The Immortal attempted to utter the words of a spell, but his mouth wouldn't move. He struggled to raise his arms, without success. He conjured from within him all the storms of magical Immortal power he had ever unleashed, but to no avail. He stood there, puny and utterly helpless, staring back at the Old One. Only then did Rad discover that he too was a statue of lead, hopelessly paralysed and mute. All things then vanished, and as Rad tumbled into oblivion, he knew then that he had learned one very obvious thing. There was such a thing as Humility for Immortals."

So according to legitimate WoG we have statements that the material Multiverse is the dream of the Old Ones and they have complete transcendence over it in a R>F fashion.

So with that my proposal would be changing Rad's Low 1-A key to just 1-A.

Another one

So if we're talking about Old Ones, we are forced to also talk about the Luminous Being. The big reason why is this quote here:

One fact remains for you, as Dungeon Master, to decide. Who are the Old Ones? Are they indeed the greatest and most powerful beings of all? Or perhaps, as they wait secure in their power, do even the Old Ones naively fail to see the most obvious fact of all? Can they really believe that no higher Being watches them?

One who also watches... and waits...

So the big thing here, is that Lumi is the DM to other DMs. Lumi is above the Old Ones as they're above the Immortals. This is further confirmed in other WoG quote:

2.7. Whom is Ao talking to at the end of "Waterdeep"?

There are all kinds of theories, but the one that seems to make the most sense is that he was talking to the Supreme God, the DM. In other words, the reader.

So overall, with this line of thinking I propose that the Luminous Being be upgrade to High 1-A

The reason being:

• He transcends the Old Ones in the same way as they transcend the material multiverse
• This is important, as the way the Old Ones transcends the multiverse is by being a "DM" or in other words having complete and utter control over every aspect of reality and can freely add/change anything since they're mere figments of imagination to them

With the above considered, the Luminous Being as stated in his justification:

As the head of the metafictional hierarchy who is given freedom to create any number of layers below them, the Luminous Being can place themselves as inaccessible from infinitely layered outerversal structures such as the Far Realm and its rulers

Would just become solidly High 1-A, as he is inaccessibly higher from Outerversal structures and beings.

 

[deonment]

Agree with this

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So the Far Realm will be higher into 1-A then?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So the Far Realm will be higher into 1-A then?

It's a bit weird here since there's no indication that the Old Ones are weaker than any random Far Realm monster. It would mean that the Elder Evils that sustain the realm by existing would be at higher levels of 1-A however since they would be able to contain the Old One race.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Tllmbrg @Mr._Bambu @Dragonstitch Apologies for not tagging you all.

 

[Dragonstitch]

looks good to me.

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree with op

 

[Tllmbrg]

Looks good

 

[ImmortalDread]

I will take a look into this once I am at my PC.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Agonizing. Terrible. A travesty. A tragedy of unmatched proportions. My life is ruined. You've killed me, you've really killed me. Oh jeez. Oh heck.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In honesty:

This is probably fine. The 1-A thing seems extremely solid, given that because of this we have multiple layers of 1-A that LB is completely disrupted from/transcendent of/whatever fancy terminology is deemed good to use in a situation like this, High 1-A flat-out is fine, too.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Agreed

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Agnaa

If you have the free time, could you also weigh in.

 

[Elizhaa]

The ratings seem fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright, I have applied the changes.

Thanks everyone!