Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3

[Nullflowerblush]

Bulma called Jaco because she needed help navigating to the center of the universe, not because she was unsure if the universe had a center. Even if Bulma herself was uncertain, Jaco confirmed that there was, indeed, a center of the universe.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

when Bulma says this you can see that it is the edge of the galaxy and not exactly the edge of the Universe, which would not imply much

You can exist on the edge of something and not literally be directly on the edge of something. It's a general area.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Bulma called Jaco because she needed help navigating to the center of the universe, not because she was unsure if the universe had a center. Even if Bulma herself was uncertain, Jaco confirmed that there was, indeed, a center of the universe.

Jaco never confirmed that there was a center, now you are lying ugly, he said that it would be impossible to find such a center, as there are countless galaxies, where he actually mentions after that no you knew.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You can exist on the edge of something and not literally be directly on the edge of something. It's a general area.

We agree that you are right, but you are hardly right, you can clearly see that it is a Galaxy and not the limit of the Universe.

 

[Reiner04]

This should be moved to content revision forum anyway, it's clogging the staff forum for no reason.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This should be moved to content revision forum anyway, it's clogging the staff forum for no reason.

This was meant to be a long time ago lol

 

[Omegabronic]

Okay so I was asked to give my input here and uh...

Yeah, I really don't see how these universes are infinite in size. Multiple times, an "edge" has been noted to exist, which would contradict the idea of them being infinite. Same goes for Bulma and Jaco supposedly going to the "center" of the universe. Not to mention the Daizenshuu statements could be hyperbolic, especially given this contradiction. There's also nothing that really indicates they're spatio-temporally separated. I mean, angels like Whis and Vados can freely move from one universe to another.

I would not take Goku Black's word here at all. He even says that he himself has no idea what the rift he created is. He's merely speculating.

Yeah, i still don't understand what the justification for them being separated space even is tbh

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Okay so I was asked to give my input here and uh...

Yeah, I really don't see how these universes are infinite in size. Multiple times, an "edge" has been noted to exist, which would contradict the idea of them being infinite. Same goes for Bulma and Jaco supposedly going to the "center" of the universe. Not to mention the Daizenshuu statements could be hyperbolic, especially given this contradiction. There's also nothing that really indicates they're spatio-temporally separated. I mean, angels like Whis and Vados can freely move from one universe to another.

I would not take Goku Black's word here at all. He even says that he himself has no idea what the rift he created is. He's merely speculating.

I’m sorry but did you not read our arguments at all? I’m not trying to be rude but we’ve shown that the guides clearly differentiate a observable universe and an unobservable universe which is supported by Yakon so there being an edge and center to the observable universe doesn’t change anything as that’s consistent with the guides (also even if it wasn’t stated in the series it’s valid unless there’s a contradiction which isn’t the case)

Just to let you know the universes are accepted as seperate space times and Whis’s “warp” is DT and is implied to allow hk to time travel

For Goku. Black he speculates a rip in space time could lead to a universe or alternate timeline so the fact he thought that also proves the series treats universes as space times

About the edge of the Universe, when Bulma says this you can see that it is the edge of the galaxy and not exactly the edge of the Universe, which would not imply much, since the context is that galaxies are infinite, but the Universe is explained several times as being infinite in size and infinite in expansion.

Please stop giving false arguments Ava mention the observable and unobservable universe

Yeah, i still don't understand what the justification for them being separated space even is tbh

Default unless there’s contradictions you don’t have to proof something is a spacetime if it’s called a universe and shown to be a reasonable sizehttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe

 

[Omegabronic]

I’m sorry but did you not read our arguments at all? I’m not trying to be rude but we’ve shown that the guides clearly differentiate a observable universe and an unobservable universe which is supported by Yakon so there being an edge and center to the observable universe doesn’t change anything as that’s consistent with the guides (also even if it wasn’t stated in the series it’s valid unless there’s a contradiction which isn’t the case)

you would need to prove that the statement is talking about the observable universe in the first place when nothing in it even implies it, she said "edge of the universe" there is no specification, the cannon never talked about any observable or not observable universe, so you can't use the guide here to give context to a scene in the cannon that has no reason to correlate to it, using a secondary cannon guide to give context to a statement to use a secondary statement guide doesn't work, unless you can show something on the statement or context of purely the show itself that would suggest that she is talking about the observable universe in the first place that doesn't work, plus she is talking this about the scan to look for the superdragon balls, unless they only reach the "observable universe" for no reason them the argument doesn't work

Just to let you know the universes are accepted as seperate space times and Whis’s “warp” is DT and is implied to allow hk to time travel

that last part is not true, it is not accepted

For Goku. Black he speculates a rip in space time could lead to a universe or alternate timeline so the fact he thought that also proves the series treats universes as space times

nope? a rip in space time can lead you to the same space time, just in a difference place and moment in it

Default unless there’s contradictions you don’t have to proof something is a spacetime if it’s called a universe and shown to be a reasonable sizehttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe

being all affected by space time is not a contradiction?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

you would need to prove that the statement is talking about the observable universe in the first place when nothing in it even implies it, she said "edge of the universe" there is no specification, the cannon never talked about any observable or not observable universe, so you can't use the guide here to give context to a scene in the cannon that has no reason to correlate to it, using a secondary cannon guide to give context to a statement to use a secondary statement guide doesn't work, unless you can show something on the statement or context of purely the show itself that would suggest that she is talking about the observable universe in the first place that doesn't work, plus she is talking this about the scan to look for the superdragon balls, unless they only reach the "observable universe" for no reason them the argument doesn't work


that last part is not true, it is not accepted


nope? a rip in space time can lead you to the same space time, just in a difference place and moment in it


being all affected by space time is not a contradiction?

It’s literally littered my stars and light and there’s still things beyond it and the show supports it I literally mentioned Yakon did I not? Guides have even stated his planet is somewhere where there’s no stars making it dark I don’t see your point the guides still and isn’t contradicted anywhere lowkey feel like I’m gonna have to recopy and paste the explanation because you guys seem to ignore everything said in it and even if the canon didn’t mention it (cough cough Yakon’s planet) it wouldn’t matter and just to make some things clear observable and non observable aren’t the real terms for it do you want me to say illuminated area and darkness?

Check Whis’s profile

I don’t understand what you meant by that so are you saying that a space time can take you to another moment in time? I don’t see how that addresses anything I said but ok

Wdym by being affected by all of space time?

 

[CloverDragon03]

For Goku. Black he speculates a rip in space time could lead to a universe or alternate timeline so the fact he thought that also proves the series treats universes as space times

It's speculation. Thus, it cannot be taken as fact. Even Goku Black doesn't know what it is

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, isn't there a Discussion Rule against using old guidebooks to try and change the cosmology to begin with?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Also, isn't there a Discussion Rule against using old guidebooks to try and change the cosmology to begin with?

Not anymore, Ant allowed to talk about, Omega is trying to change the whole cosmology, removing the map that is used in the calculations.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universe-crt.150545/page-4#post-5558126

 

[Reiner04]

Also, isn't there a Discussion Rule against using old guidebooks to try and change the cosmology to begin with?

There is and infact that there is no such establishment as of observable and unobservable universe in guide books as well but just headon.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

There is and infact that there is no such establishment as of observable and unobservable universe in guide books as well but just headon.

Bruh.. that’s just the term we’re using do you want me to say illuminated area and darkness?

Also, isn't there a Discussion Rule against using old guidebooks to try and change the cosmology to begin with?

Fire allowed it as he added it to his blog

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well if Ant and Firestorm allowed it then it should be fine to keep this discussion going then

Anyways, Jaco never says it's impossible to find a center of the universe, just that it would be impossible to get there, which makes sense given how Earth is supposedly on the outskirts of it, thus meaning it'd take forever to get there. It's not that such a center doesn't exist, and that's a rather unfounded extrapolation of Jaco's statement

 

[Omegabronic]

It’s literally littered my stars and light and there’s still things beyond it and the show supports it

edge is an area, not literally on the border, just like how a house can be on edge of a country without it being actually on the line that separates it from another country

I literally mentioned Yakon did I not?

yes, so? in the cannon manga there nothing ever said about any greater darkness whatsoever

Guides have even stated his planet is somewhere where there’s no stars making it dark

no it says that the planet in specific has no star

I don’t see your point the guides still and isn’t contradicted anywhere

yes it is, that is the whole point of what i said

lowkey feel like I’m gonna have to recopy and paste the explanation because you guys seem to ignore everything said in it

...

and even if the canon didn’t mention it (cough cough Yakon’s planet)

that in the main cannon mentioned nothing about any greater darkness whatsoever

it wouldn’t matter and just to make some things clear observable and non observable aren’t the real terms for it do you want me to say illuminated area and darkness?

the used term is irrelevant to my argument

Check Whis’s profile

checked, doesn't change what i said about the warp

I don’t understand what you meant by that so are you saying that a space time can take you to another moment in time? I don’t see how that addresses anything I said but ok

you argue that that quote from black means that another universe is a space time, i am saying that cutting through space time to reach somewhere doesn't inherently mean that that somewhere is a space time

Wdym by being affected by all of space time?

meant time travel, it was a typo

 

[Reiner04]

Bruh.. that’s just the term we’re using do you want me to say illuminated area and darkness

Space of light and darkness is what literally any kind of outer space is, nothing about observable and unobservable universe implied there.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Space of light and darkness is what literally any kind of outer space is, nothing about observable and unobservable universe implied there.

Reiner,ask someone to move this to general discussion, since all things have been resolved about downgrading cosmology and such, now we are debating about the verse being infinite and what it will be accepted on the blog, it's good that some people give some ideas about it, so we can suggest what we put.

 

[Reiner04]

I'll ask to move it to CRT forum then.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'll ask to move it to CRT forum then.

Yes, do it little brother

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

edge is an area, not literally on the border, just like how a house can be on edge of a country without it being actually on the line that separates it from another country


yes, so? in the cannon manga there nothing ever said about any greater darkness whatsoever


no it says that the planet in specific has no star


yes it is, that is the whole point of what i said


...


that in the main cannon mentioned nothing about any greater darkness whatsoever


the used term is irrelevant to my argument


checked, doesn't change what i said about the warp


you argue that that quote from black means that another universe is a space time, i am saying that cutting through space time to reach somewhere doesn't inherently mean that that somewhere is a space time


meant time travel, it was a typo

Bro? Huh look up the definition of edge it’s a border or boundary I don’t know why I have to argue basic English lol wtf

Is there not a statement like that in the manga can you give me the chapter and page so I can verify? Also the guide state it anyway

I still don’t see the contradiction anywhere and I’ve addressed your counters that have already been addressed at the literal beginning of page 3 but you’re the best stone waller

Even if the main canon didn’t mention it that’s not a refute it can still be used if there’s no contradictions (but it did mention it so point is moot either way)

Well Whis has time travel for a reason on his profile

So if a crack in space time brings you to another universe or timeline that doesn’t mean it’s a space time? Still a bit confused on what you mean

Didn’t DDM literally explain to you why branching timelines aren’t a refute to universes being a seperate space time and someone knowledgeable in tier 2 scaling?

Space of light and darkness is what literally any kind of outer space is, nothing about observable and unobservable universe implied there.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1039606255301439509/1081722859958841414/Screenshot_125.png

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."

“Beyond stars where light cannot reach” Yakon is also a alien monster I see no contradiction

infinite space and darkness just makes things even more consistent I don’t like how I also have to keep repeating and repeating things that have already been discussed so please read the beginning of page 3 carefully and be open minded so you can see all the arguments presented

Reiner,ask someone to move this to general discussion, since all things have been resolved about downgrading cosmology and such, now we are debating about the verse being infinite and what it will be accepted on the blog, it's good that some people give some ideas about it, so we can suggest what we put.

why don’t we just keep this thread open because this thread isn’t just about infinite universe db it’s about adding justifications to the universes being seperate which is why we’re doing this whole cosmology blog anyways and make a new crt just about infinite db universe

 

[Omegabronic]

Bro? Huh look up the definition of edge it’s a border or boundary I don’t know why I have to argue basic English lol wtf

i did, doesn't change what i said

Is there not a statement like that in the manga can you give me the chapter and page so I can verify?

didn't we discussed this a few pages back? anyway, chapter 451 and 452

Also the guide state it anyway

which doesn't mean much as i have explained

I still don’t see the contradiction anywhere and I’ve addressed your counters that have already been addressed at the literal beginning of page 3 but you’re the best stone waller

you haven't tho? plus the statement in question is not even saying that the darkness in infinite, it says that the space of light and darkness is infinite, so idk why we are even arguing for infinite darkness when the light part of it would also be by that statement making it contradictory either way

Even if the main canon didn’t mention it that’s not a refute it can still be used if there’s no contradictions (but it did mention it so point is moot either way)

you can't use a statement of secondary cannon to support a specific interpretation of main cannon, that is what i said

Well Whis has time travel for a reason on his profile

yeah so? i was talking about the warp ability

So if a crack in space time brings you to another universe or timeline that doesn’t mean it’s a space time? Still a bit confused on what you mean

if it brings you to another timeline then it will be another space time, if it brings you to any other place then it doesn't mean that it is another space time inherently

Didn’t DDM literally explain to you why branching timelines aren’t a refute to universes being a seperate space time and someone knowledgeable in tier 2 scaling?

that only works if the time travel goes back to before the said branch happens, which is not the case here at all

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i did, doesn't change what i said


didn't we discussed this a few pages back? anyway, chapter 451 and 452


which doesn't mean much as i have explained


you haven't tho? plus the statement in question is not even saying that the darkness in infinite, it says that the space of light and darkness is infinite, so idk why we are even arguing for infinite darkness when the light part of it would also be by that statement making it contradictory either way


you can't use a statement of secondary cannon to support a specific interpretation of main cannon, that is what i said


yeah so? i was talking about the warp ability


if it brings you to another timeline then it will be another space time, if it brings you to any other place then it doesn't mean that it is another space time inherently


that only works if the time travel goes back to before the said branch happens, which is not the case here at all

Omega, let's talk about the Universe being infinite, forget the other subjects, that the "Infinite Universe" is the elephant in the living room, let's debate about it and the rest has already been discussed and the changes will be applied to a blog.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

i did, doesn't change what i said


didn't we discussed this a few pages back? anyway, chapter 451 and 452


which doesn't mean much as i have explained


you haven't tho? plus the statement in question is not even saying that the darkness in infinite, it says that the space of light and darkness is infinite, so idk why we are even arguing for infinite darkness when the light part of it would also be by that statement making it contradictory either way


you can't use a statement of secondary cannon to support a specific interpretation of main cannon, that is what i said


yeah so? i was talking about the warp ability


if it brings you to another timeline then it will be another space time, if it brings you to any other place then it doesn't mean that it is another space time inherently


that only works if the time travel goes back to before the said branch happens, which is not the case here at all

1.
the outside limit of an object, area, or surface; a place or part farthest away from the center of something.
"a willow tree at the water's edge"
Similar: border boundary

Why isn’t the guides telling us about Yakon’s planet “not much” I must’ve missed your explanation but if there’s no stars and light can’t reach seems kinda consistent weirdly enough

… There’s statements of an infinite darkness but the universe being filled with an infinite darkness and light doesn’t mean it’s referring to the light being infinite I literally sent a scan of the galaxy Illuminations and there’s darkness that goes beyond that so you pretty much confirmed my suspicions you’re just not reading the arguments

I still don’t understand but I’ll just do what Luffy said

What you said there didn’t make much sense either but I guess we can stick to just talking about infinite universe

 

[Omegabronic]

1.
the outside limit of an object, area, or surface; a place or part farthest away from the center of something.
"a willow tree at the water's edge"
Similar: border boundary

"a place or part farthest away from the center of something." Earth is in the farthest part of the universe, aka its edge

Why isn’t the guides telling us about Yakon’s planet “not much” I must’ve missed your explanation but if there’s no stars and light can’t reach seems kinda consistent weirdly enough

nothing is said about it having no stars at all in its area, the guide only says that the planet doesn't have a star, but nothing about its area having no stars in it at all

… There’s statements of an infinite darkness but the universe being filled with an infinite darkness and light doesn’t mean it’s referring to the light being infinite I literally sent a scan of the galaxy Illuminations and there’s darkness that goes beyond that so you pretty much confirmed my suspicions you’re just not reading the arguments

you know, you could send it again, if it is the scan i am thinking of then i still maintain what i said

I still don’t understand but I’ll just do what Luffy said

What you said there didn’t make much sense either but I guess we can stick to just talking about infinite universe

ok, gonna do a thread about it after the tier 2 revisions are done anyway

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

"a place or part farthest away from the center of something." Earth is in the farthest part of the universe, aka its edge


nothing is said about it having no stars at all in its area, the guide only says that the planet doesn't have a star, but nothing about its area having no stars in it at all


you know, you could send it again, if it is the scan i am thinking of then i still maintain what i said


ok, gonna do a thread about it after the tier 2 revisions are done anyway

Omega, Dragon Ball Universes will remain low 2-C and timelines will be 2-C, this has already been discussed, you will only have a new rule imposed in the back, I know you don't like DB, but could you stop to attack the verse? If not soon you will be denounced.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, the Dragon Ball Universes will continue to be low 2-C and the timelines will be 2-C, this has already been discussed, you will only cause a new rule to be imposed on the back, I know you don't like the back, but could you attack the verse? If not soon you will be denounced.

i am not attacking the verse, this was discussed here, but the tier 2 revision thread may change something, and if i bring arguments to the table and gain permission, then there will be no problem for me to do so, that is why i am waiting both the cosmology blog and the tier 2 revision thread to be done, so that i can analyse the former by what the latter decided, now as you said, let us stop, for now at least

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i am not attacking the verse, this was discussed here, but the tier 2 revision thread may change something, and if i bring arguments to the table and gain permission, then there will be no problem for me to do so, that is why i am waiting both the cosmology blog and the tier 2 revision thread to be done, so that i can analyse the former by what the latter decided, now as you said, let us stop, for now at least

right bro

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

"a place or part farthest away from the center of something." Earth is in the farthest part of the universe, aka its edge


nothing is said about it having no stars at all in its area, the guide only says that the planet doesn't have a star, but nothing about its area having no stars in it at all


you know, you could send it again, if it is the scan i am thinking of then i still maintain what i said


ok, gonna do a thread about it after the tier 2 revisions are done anyway

So the boundary? Doesn’t change from what I’ve shown..

Yeah the planet has no sun and is dark and as a result of that is dark which is consistent with...
"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
“Beyond stars where light cannot reach” Yakon is also a alien monster I see no contradiction

Sure I’ll send it again but will you read through it? Just read it get the main gist of it still see sum wrong mention it but just read this https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5534537

That’s perfectly fine you may do a thread about it once the tier 2 revisions are done might not get accepted you can try though

 

[Omegabronic]

So the boundary? Doesn’t change from what I’ve shown..

if there is a boundary to the universe, then it has an end and an edge

Yeah the planet has no sun and is dark and as a result of that is dark which is consistent with...

maybe, but the fact that the statement in super makes it explicity that there is an edge and end makes it less likely that it is referring to that

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
“Beyond stars where light cannot reach” Yakon is also a alien monster I see no contradiction

but he is known tho yeah, yet in super we see that the are in the edge of the universe has light, and in the anime we even see no darkness around the universe when we see it from outside

Sure I’ll send it again but will you read through it? Just read it get the main gist of it still see sum wrong mention it but just read this https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5534537

the part about the darkness and light and that is talking about the universe being infinite i believe i already covered up above and in earlier responses, now this part "
(Daizenshuu 4)
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world." is not refering to any specific part of the universe such as an "observable" universe, it is talking about the universe in general, aka all of it, so nothing suggesting that only the "observable" universe is infinitely expanding via this statement

"
What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1039606255301439509/1081966497339019347/Screenshot_129.png" this part straight up doesn't exist in the cannon manga

"
And we know that this place HAS to be beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super, since it's littered by stars and light. It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond. There are no contradictions, everything is in line with the show.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1039606255301439509/1081966694098022570/main-qimg-ff15384bb117d88a936a153996435d88-lq.jpg"this part i believe i also covered, there is nothing to say that the statement in question in regarding only the "observable" universe, if that was the case going to the center would be pointless since the distance to scan for the super dragon balls would be the same regardless

 

[SummerBlue]

The universe has an edge that has been shown and talked about, characters can fly away and back to that edge with certain amount of in universe time needed(Example: Whis needs 35 minutes to get to earth from Beerus's planet, 26 minutes to travel from Beerus's planet to King Kai's planet, 3 minutes to get to earth from King Kai's planet), characters do not have infinite speed to make traveling an infinite distance possible, characters are affected by the time flow so they can't have infinite speed

Disagree with the universe being infinite in size.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

if there is a boundary to the universe, then it has an end and an edge


maybe, but the fact that the statement in super makes it explicity that there is an edge and end makes it less likely that it is referring to that


but he is known tho yeah, yet in super we see that the are in the edge of the universe has light, and in the anime we even see no darkness around the universe when we see it from outside


the part about the darkness and light and that is talking about the universe being infinite i believe i already covered up above and in earlier responses, now this part "
(Daizenshuu 4)
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world." is not refering to any specific part of the universe such as an "observable" universe, it is talking about the universe in general, aka all of it, so nothing suggesting that only the "observable" universe is infinitely expanding via this statement

"
What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1039606255301439509/1081966497339019347/Screenshot_129.png" this part straight up doesn't exist in the cannon manga

"
And we know that this place HAS to be beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super, since it's littered by stars and light. It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond. There are no contradictions, everything is in line with the show.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1039606255301439509/1081966694098022570/main-qimg-ff15384bb117d88a936a153996435d88-lq.jpg"this part i believe i also covered, there is nothing to say that the statement in question in regarding only the "observable" universe, if that was the case going to the center would be pointless since the distance to scan for the super dragon balls would be the same regardless

Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of the illumination. Still consistent.

Also idk why the edge of the universe having light hurts my argument? That’s what I’m agreeing to as well

You might’ve spoken about it but I think I addressed that as well

Iirc that part comes after the guru page and it’s referring to the cardinal directions and saying that the part that expands is determined by the kaio of the NSEW directions so thats why it’s supporting evidence for the “illuminations” and “darkness”

For Yakon already addressed this the guides state that Yakon’s planet has no star and as a result of this is dark which is consistent with there being darkness beyond the stars/illuminated areas (won’t use the term observable and non observable as it confuses people)


For the last part I don’t know what you’re implying with the radar if you can rephrase that that’d be helpful

The universe has an edge that has been shown and talked about, characters can fly away and back to that edge with certain amount of in universe time needed(Example: Whis needs 35 minutes to get to earth from Beerus's planet, 26 minutes to travel from Beerus's planet to King Kai's planet, 3 minutes to get to earth from King Kai's planet), characters do not have infinite speed to make traveling an infinite distance possible, characters are affected by the time flow so they can't have infinite speed

Disagree with the universe being infinite in size.

Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of the illumination. Still consistent.
plus pretty sure Whis’s staff is accepted as dimensional travel and not real speed and as the speed page states ”An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.” So I would assume this would only be combat applicable and I would prefer to talk about scaling in another thread and make this purely cosmology based

 

[Omegabronic]

Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of the illumination. Still consistent.

You just ignored what i said, if the universe has an edge and a boundary them it isn't infinite

Also idk why the edge of the universe having light hurts my argument? That’s what I’m agreeing to as well

You are arguing that beyond the finite "observable" universe there is an infinite darkness, aka the universe would not have any edge since it would be infinite, plus even if the darkness was there the edge would be dark and not have lights

You might’ve spoken about it but I think I addressed that as well

I would like to see where

Iirc that part comes after the guru page and it’s referring to the cardinal directions and saying that the part that expands is determined by the kaio of the NSEW directions so thats why it’s supporting evidence for the “illuminations” and “darkness”

The point is that the page never says anything about any "part that expands" only that the universe expands

For Yakon already addressed this the guides state that Yakon’s planet has no star and as a result of this is dark which is consistent with there being darkness beyond the stars/illuminated areas (won’t use the term observable and non observable as it confuses people)

No since nothing states that yakon's planet is beyond the iluminated areas

For the last part I don’t know what you’re implying with the radar if you can rephrase that that’d be helpful

Simple, bulma said that about the them being on the edge because the universe is too big for them to use the super dragon radar to find the super dragon balls from the edge, the super dragon ball scatter throughout both universe 6 and 7, if the universe is infinite the position wouldn't matter since it would be the same distance in all directions and there wouldn't even be an center for that matter

 

[SummerBlue]

Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of the illumination. Still consistent.
plus pretty sure Whis’s staff is accepted as dimensional travel and not real speed and as the speed page states ”An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.” So I would assume this would only be combat applicable and I would prefer to talk about scaling in another thread and make this purely cosmology based

Super Shenron's summoning blatantly displays that it's not infinite so that argument only holds if you ignore the show. The show and Bulma's statement > secondary sources

King Kai had enough time to warn Vegeta about Beerus before he arrived in earth with Whis. Whis is not accepted to have infinite speed, does not have feats for it, and has a limit to his speed. There are many examples of him needing time to travel across the universe.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

You just ignored what i said, if the universe has an edge and a boundary them it isn't infinite


You are arguing that beyond the finite "observable" universe there is an infinite darkness, aka the universe would not have any edge since it would be infinite, plus even if the darkness was there the edge would be dark and not have lights


I would like to see where


The point is that the page never says anything about any "part that expands" only that the universe expands


No since nothing states that yakon's planet is beyond the iluminated areas


Simple, bulma said that about the them being on the edge because the universe is too big for them to use the super dragon radar to find the super dragon balls from the edge, the super dragon ball scatter throughout both universe 6 and 7, if the universe is infinite the position wouldn't matter since it would be the same distance in all directions and there wouldn't even be an center for that matter

Sure the illuminated area has a edge and center but beyond that there hasn’t been shown to be an edge and center

if you know that’s what I’m arguing what were you saying earlier? Also I’m arguing the stuff beyond the edge is darkness not the edge and the things inside of the illuminated area

scroll up I’ve been responding to everything you’ve been saying

it literally says that part of the universe expanding is depending on the direction of the kaio which is still consistent with the illuminated areas and infinite light and darkness I dont see how this statement disproves anything

Yakons planet has No star and no light it’s consistent with what the guides say about there Being monsters in the unknown beyond the stars

how would that make the direction the same all around? That doesn’t really make sense she has to go to the edge so the signal is more spread out because the dragon radar only covers a certain amount of area and the dragon balls take place in a certain amount of area so Bulma couldn’t get a full read on the universe from the edge I don’t see how this disproves anything besides the fact that her radar probably goes in all directions a certain length

Super Shenron's summoning blatantly displays that it's not infinite so that argument only holds if you ignore the show. The show and Bulma's statement > secondary sources

King Kai had enough time to warn Vegeta about Beerus before he arrived in earth with Whis. Whis is not accepted to have infinite speed, does not have feats for it, and has a limit to his speed. There are many examples of him needing time to travel across the universe.

how does shenrons summoning disprove anything? He didn’t even dwarf the universes with his size all he did was dwarf galaxies tf? The guides make Bulma’s sources consistent I suggest you read this https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5534537

Never said Whis had infinite speed and it wouldn’t even matter if he took time hes never going full speed the only time he actually did was to get to zenos palace pretty sure and either way it’s Dimensional Travel and we can talk about strength and speed if this gets accepted which I don’t see why it wouldn’t but you can talk about the scaling after we’re done with the cosmology blog that Fire made

 

[Omegabronic]

Sure the illuminated area has a edge and center but beyond that there hasn’t been shown to be an edge and center

Nothing on the statement made by bulma says anything about refering only to a "iluminated area" it is talking about the universe in general

if you know that’s what I’m arguing what were you saying earlier?

That the universe is said to have an edge and thus not infinite

Also I’m arguing the stuff beyond the edge is darkness not the edge and the things inside of the illuminated area

The edge statement has no evidence of only refering to any specific part of the universe

scroll up I’ve been responding to everything you’ve been saying

I went and still don't get it

it literally says that part of the universe expanding

it never specifies any "part" of the universe, it talks about the universe in general

is depending on the direction of the kaio which is still consistent with the illuminated areas and infinite light and darkness I dont see how this statement disproves anything

because it is saying that the universe in general is infinitely expanding

Yakons planet has No star and no light it’s consistent with what the guides say about there Being monsters in the unknown beyond the stars

I would be repeating myself at this point

how would that make the direction the same all around?

any finite distance taken by anyone in the universe would be meaningless if the universe is infinite, subtract any finite number by infinite and it will still be infinite always

That doesn’t really make sense she has to go to the edge so the signal is more spread out because the dragon radar only covers a certain amount of area

that is headcanon, the radar is made to search the universe for the super dragon balls, she says that they need to go to the center to cover all the area

and the dragon balls take place in a certain amount of area

also headcanon

so Bulma couldn’t get a full read on the universe from the edge I don’t see how this disproves anything besides the fact that her radar probably goes in all directions a certain length

She is searching the universe, show any evidence that it is only a certain arbitral area of it

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Nothing on the statement made by bulma says anything about refering only to a "iluminated area" it is talking about the universe in general


That the universe is said to have an edge and thus not infinite


The edge statement has no evidence of only refering to any specific part of the universe


I went and still don't get it


it never specifies any "part" of the universe, it talks about the universe in general


because it is saying that the universe in general is infinitely expanding


I would be repeating myself at this point


any finite distance taken by anyone in the universe would be meaningless if the universe is infinite, subtract any finite number by infinite and it will still be infinite always


that is headcanon, the radar is made to search the universe for the super dragon balls, she says that they need to go to the center to cover all the area


also headcanon


She is searching the universe, show any evidence that it is only a certain arbitral area of it

It’s literally littered in stars and light its consistent with what the guides say and what do you mean by universe in general? The entire macrocosm?

Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of the illumination. Still consistent.


Depending on the direction of the kaio plus refer to the scan above it says infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations tens of thousands of light years… etc dont see how you could take that out of context considering the scans are right by each other refers to the illumination as infinitely expanding Itd be great if pineapple could respond to this as well

There can still be a finite distance between 2 objects in a universe if there’s an infinite universe and theres a moon 30k kilometers away from earth in the moon traveling from the earth to the moon is still finite its only infinite if you traverse an entire infinite universe merely traveling between 2 points in an infinite universe is not infinite

That’s what I was trying to say her radar scans from all directions and can only scan a certain distance so she has to go to the center of the illumination

not headcanon unless you want to argue there’s super dragon balls in the kaioshin realm and afterlife?
there is places the super dragon balls don’t go and they must be at a certain point if her radar can’t get a perfect reading from where she already is at

 

[SummerBlue]

how does shenrons summoning disprove anything? He didn’t even dwarf the universes with his size all he did was dwarf galaxies tf? The guides make Bulma’s sources consistent I suggest you read this https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5534537

Never said Whis had infinite speed and it wouldn’t even matter if he took time hes never going full speed the only time he actually did was to get to zenos palace pretty sure and either way it’s Dimensional Travel and we can talk about strength and speed if this gets accepted which I don’t see why it wouldn’t but you can talk about the scaling after we’re done with the cosmology blog that Fire made

It ends and we see that it does not go on infinitely. Super Shenron was getting bigger and bigger until he had fully formed between the edges of universe 6 and 7. Your argument against this earlier was "Well the universe isn’t a bubble with a singular galaxy inside of it" but that's just your opinion not fact. Super Shenron had been shown to dwarf galaxies before this scene and when he got bigger we were shown the complete outside view of universe 6 and 7. This is obviously not just a singular galaxy inside a bubble. But in the end it doesn't really matter what's depicted inside of the universe. What actually matters in this debate is that universe 6 and 7 were depicted to have ends in which Super Shenron fully formed between.

Secondary sources don't matter when it contradicts the main source. The main source points to the universe being finite. Also random translators from somewhere can't be used.

"Never said Whis had infinite speed"
Then why quote ”An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.”

Whis took 2 days to get to Zenos palace. We have to talk about it because it completely disproves Infinite universes in dragon ball. A character can't travel across an infinite distance with pure speed if they don't have infinite speed. Whis and everyone else in DB don't have infinite speed feats and have glaring anti feats.

 

[Vietthai96]

What the hell with the infinite speed argument???, take sometime to reach a place isn't anti-feat for Infinite speed, fiction does it all the time, by that logic all infinite speed character should be downgrade because they take time to do something. Anyway we talking about infinite universe, infinite speed have nothing to do here

Also if you guys want to talk about Infinite speed, in the last episode Super Shenron literally flying and appear in all 11 universes at the same time, that infinite speed feat