-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3
- Thread starter TheGodOfICE777
- Start date
-
- Tags
- dragon ball
- Status
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,245
- 14,614
Just because the verse didn't mention something in guidebook directly doesn't mean it can't be used, your argument practically throw out every meaning in the existent of guidebooks, which is supplement evidences, not just this verse, but all fiction verses
- 9,982
- 10,821
It doesn't exist in guide books, it doesn't exist in show. Then where the hell this argument is coming from?
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,245
- 14,614
Huh, did i worded it wrong??, what i mean is just because the show didn't mention something directly and said thing exist in guidebook only, doesn't mean it can't be used
- 9,982
- 10,821
That thing doesn't even exist in guidebook, I thought my previous 2 post made it clear I am talking about guidebooks itself. I am fine with bulma statement not being a contradiction neither the fan of stopping any kind of possible upgrade but this issue just can't be ignored.
It's not about unknown places of the universe, there are many of that kind, it's about universe itself having division of known and unknown universe to be mentioned or to be a thing. Observable universe or unobservable universe, there is need for this division to be established as universes on their own, just like U7 realms itself has the division and those divisions to be established as universes on their own.
- 628
- 1,158
We're just calling them 'Observable Universe' and 'Unobservable Universe' for ease of use.
Do you want us to refer to them as the 'infinitely expanding galaxies and light' mentioned in Daizenshuu 4 and the 'infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives, an endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world' mentioned in Daizenshuu 4 and 7 each time?
- 9,982
- 10,821
Infinite space of light and darkness is what universe is, it's full of light and darkness both that's not telling us any kind of division one is asserting in the first place as of known and unknown universe, no. There is no such division has been mentioned and neither there is any kind of living universe sub divisions that has been referred as universes on their own, Even in guidebooks.
- 628
- 1,158
So you're saying that both of those statements apply to the same universe?
Are you just conceding that the universe is infinite, then?
- 9,982
- 10,821
"Same universe"!? What is different universe here or stated anywhere? Anyway as I said, as per guide book universe is infinite, not per the show.
- 628
- 1,158
Right, then we differ only in interpretation. You see all the statements applicable to the same structure making the Universe infinite, I see them cutting up the living world into an infinitely expanding universe and an infinite universe beyond it. Either way, it leads us to an infinite universe.
And as Otto argued above, we have no reason to not use the guide book to supplement the show.
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #372
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,245
- 14,614
Iirc, @Nullflowerblush already talked about this, it isn't infinitely expanding, but infinitely expansive
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #374
The observable universe is infinitely expanding and the unobservable universe is infinite
- 12,125
- 4,364
no, i said that independent of the reason that the other dimensions are not shown, the part that would include the darkness is
read above, this just proves that the other dimensions are not visible, there are a myriad of ways of why that would be, but the important part is that the area where the darkness would be is visible, i really don't see how these other dimensions are really relevant
it looks like a massive glowy center being orbited by other glowing stuff, what is the reason to assume that these other glowing stuff orbiting it are not galaxies? specially when we also see massive portions of light that look like galaxies
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #376
Im saying that not everything that should be in the universe is shown including the other realms within the universe so there not being a darkness isn’t a counter
Those lights don’t look like galaxies and look like specs of white dots (stars) I showed you the depiction of the macrocosm and then I showed you a galaxy the macrocosm is represented like that but doesn’t show the main parts of the universe and if it did there wouldn’t be that many stars
- 12,125
- 4,364
i covered this already, the other dimensions not appearing is not relevant for my argument, they are simply not visible, but the part that we know it is visible, aka the physical universe with galaxies and whatnot, is, and your argument relies on the darkness existing in the said physical universe
white dots don't have to mean stars, what exactly stops them from being galaxies in this context? specially when we know we are looking at a universe?
okay so? i addressed this
i already covered the other dimensions part
says who?
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #378
“The physical universe” is one of the 3 main parts of the Macrocosm all of it is physical so I don’t know why you’re calling it that but if there’s things that aren’t depicted within the macrocosm you can’t say that it missing some other detail is a contradiction as well my argument is that beyond the illuminated galaxies is a place where light can’t reach it’s not the same here
When there’s a galaxy depicted already why does that “center” look like the galaxies thatve been depicted in the series like when Super Shenron was shown dwarfing galaxies your argument heavily relies on ignoring other missing parts and then saying when another detail that’s missing is a contradiction to the guides which isn’t a good argument
Since this depiction is accurate with no contradictions can you explain why the afterlife and kaioshin realm aren’t shown?
Well I mean pretty sure the afterlife doesn’t have stars in it ignoring the anime where the grand Kai’s planet is shown having stars and planets inside of it but this doesn’t exist in super or the DBZ manga nor does the kaioshin realm which take up most of the universe
- 12,125
- 4,364
to exemplify that i am talking about the universe with the galaxies and stars and the cosmos
just gonna put the part where i covered it
yeah, and said darkness should appear around said galaxies then, correct?
i really didn't understood what you said here, the center is a massive light ball, what part of it look like a galaxy?
no it doesn't, my argument relies on the fact that the part of the universe visible is the one you are arguing that it is where the darkness should be, the other parts are other dimensions and as such have numerous possibilities for not appearing, what reason would the darkness have for not appearing? the living universe is there, you argue that a massive darkness is around it even when we don't see it, even when the living universe is being visible and there is no darkness around it
they simply not being visible, they may be insinide of the universe but not be big enough to be seen, being other dimensions they may as well be in another dimensional plane from the living universe so are not seen when we see it from outside, there are various reasons, but they are really not relevant to my point, since the living universe is clearly being visible
the afterlife has a sun i am sure, and if the kaioshin realm has light, then it has a sun or a star to iluminate it as well, but regardless, we are seeing a universe from afar, smaller points with no stars would be barely visible if at all
evidence for it taking up most of the universe?
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #380
Well my argument was that it missing stuff doesn’t mean it’s not there as the realms aren’t there but either way there’s a empty space shown in the edges
Well the daizenshuu says that there’s a sun bigger than the known universe (cough cough illuminated areas) and it says that the kaioshin realm takes up a tenth of the macrocosm which is my evidence and the scale Ik isn’t drawn to scale but appears to be bigger than the living universe which may not be enough proof but as I mentioned the kaioshin realm takes up a tenth of the universe
- 12,125
- 4,364
Not when you look up close, look again there is light dots on the suposed dark part and that is even clearer when we see them close https://imgur.io/a/IXVjOmJ
which is not a counter argument against what i said at all since that would be a contradiction of the book to the show if we go by my explanation
Wasn't this a kazenshuu fan site only things? Which book says this btw
If it isn't drawn to scale, then it doesn't matter what it appears to be
A tenth is very small,
Let us continue this in private, do you have a discord? I feel like we are going in circles and i would like to not clog the thread too much
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #382
Yeah I got discord we can chat about this |ICE|ハイセ・ジョースター#6484
Also I wanna point out one thing even if you take the depiction as literal this would only apply for DBS anime and the DBS manga would still qualify
- 12,125
- 4,364
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #384
What’s your user? The friend requests people have given me Isnt in order
- 12,125
- 4,364
lucas1098
#7615
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,241
- 4,064
derail muchOh no, just because he didn't write it doesn't mean it's not canon, let's cite an example, episode G raquien and episode G kuramada didn't write it either, does that stop being canon? Of course that no! Akira toriyama has his own handwriting and autograph, and on the cover it says "Akira toriyama"
Oh no, it's not canon because there's a little boy talking
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,657
Hey, what were the sources for infinity having an edge?
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #388
It’s not relevant to our argument but an uncountable number in mathematics can have an edge as there is beyond an infinite amount of numbers 0 < x < 1 but I want to again repeat our argument doesn’t rely on infinite having an edge but the fact that there’s an observable and unobservable universe
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,657
Right, if this helps any in the coming arguments; in geometry, "[the curvature] of space is equivalent to gravity and is a measure of the amount of matter in the universe", and a universe with a positive curvature (i.e., spherical) is considered "closed" and is finite in size but expands endlessly.
What was the evidence for the existence of an unobservable universe?
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #390
Post in thread 'Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5534537
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,657
A full translation would be nice.
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #392
We’ll have to wait for Pineapple if you want a full translation and he’s only free on the weekends but either way those are technically already translated but I’m assuming you want the Raws and kanji explanation
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #393
Which scan?
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,822
- 8,657
The one in the link you sent, about "spreading into a vast, different dimension". I can't seem to find the original scan.
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #395
- 3,493
- 5,191
- Thread starter
- #396
also once this infinite universe thing is finished being discussed we’ll discuss the rest of the cosmology and I have proof that can be used to prove universes are spatiotemporally seperated for extra justification like when Goku Black rips a tear in space and time and thinks that a tear in space and time could be a universe or even a timeline and the fact that ordinary travel isnt possible to travel between realms but we’ll discuss this part after and this one should go by like a breeze and then we can finish the cosmology blog and be done with the thread
- 13,228
- 21,044
Okay so I was asked to give my input here and uh...
Yeah, I really don't see how these universes are infinite in size. Multiple times, an "edge" has been noted to exist, which would contradict the idea of them being infinite. Same goes for Bulma and Jaco supposedly going to the "center" of the universe. Not to mention the Daizenshuu statements could be hyperbolic, especially given this contradiction. There's also nothing that really indicates they're spatio-temporally separated. I mean, angels like Whis and Vados can freely move from one universe to another.
Yeah, I really don't see how these universes are infinite in size. Multiple times, an "edge" has been noted to exist, which would contradict the idea of them being infinite. Same goes for Bulma and Jaco supposedly going to the "center" of the universe. Not to mention the Daizenshuu statements could be hyperbolic, especially given this contradiction. There's also nothing that really indicates they're spatio-temporally separated. I mean, angels like Whis and Vados can freely move from one universe to another.
I would not take Goku Black's word here at all. He even says that he himself has no idea what the rift he created is. He's merely speculating.
- 12,191
- 6,130
About the edge of the Universe, when Bulma says this you can see that it is the edge of the galaxy and not exactly the edge of the Universe, which would not imply much, since the context is that galaxies are infinite, but the Universe is explained several times as being infinite in size and infinite in expansion.
- 9,982
- 10,821
Bulma, Jaco all are talking about edge and center of the universe, there is no mention of galaxy
- 12,191
- 6,130
Bulma really doesn't even know where the center of the Universe is, she even called Jaco for it, let alone Jaco knows anything, my friend, no need to mention it, you can see it when it shows on the anime which does not refute the Universe being infinite.Bulma, Jaco all are talking about edge and center of the universe, there is no mention of galaxy
As shown here, Earth is on the limestone of a Galaxy and you can see other Galaxies in the background.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
