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But that’s only cos it’s consistent with the primary material. Since it’s a secondary sourceWhere do you think the Super Saiyan multiplier comes from?
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But that’s only cos it’s consistent with the primary material. Since it’s a secondary sourceWhere do you think the Super Saiyan multiplier comes from?
It actually comes from the guides that are used, and everything in the guide is considered canon by the guide.Akira Toriyama confirms this multiplier himself. Why do you think we don’t use ssj2 multiplier and ssj3?
it comes from the guides, but it is only accepted because it is consistent with the main cannon, if it wasn't consistent or if it didn't had evidence for it, we wouldn't have used itIt actually comes from the guides that are used, and everything in the guide is considered canon by the guide.
If secondary canon (guidebooks) conflicts with primary canon then it's disregarded.Besides, wrong. We still use guidebooks and external info/sources for DB anyways....
Where do you think the Super Saiyan multiplier comes from?
Akira Toriyama says in an interview that the multiplier is 50x, but he feels like its more of a 10x boost rather than 50. While the last bit is irrelevant, this doesn’t necessarily make the guidebooks more reliable. As stated previously, for the same reason we don’t use ssj2 2x multiplier and ssj3 4x.It actually comes from the guides that are used, and everything in the guide is considered canon by the guide.
Could you show this interview? Especially because it's in the same guides we use, where there are several interviews with Akira toriyama.Akira Toriyama says in an interview that the multiplier is 50x, but he feels like its more of a 10x boost rather than 50. While the last bit is irrelevant, this doesn’t necessarily make the guidebooks more reliable. As stated previously, for the same reason we don’t use ssj2 2x multiplier and ssj3 4x.
episode 28 of dbs
episode 55 of dbs
episode 41 of dbs
what is your proof for this?
Weak argument, considering as this is Toriyama's direct wordsIn direct reference to the currently-contest diagram of the universe... from 2009.
Hey, isn't this the "Super Saiyan 2 is 2x as powerful as Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 4x" guidebook?
Yes, the guides and databooks are secondary canon, but treating any information coming from them as headcanon by default unless all of them have been directly stated/show in main canon its bonkers.there is nothing to say that they would be visible in the first place, the only thing that would suggest that they would is the macrocosm map and the guides, which isn't a good counter since what it is shown in the main cannon always takes priority over secondary cannon like the guides, so they not appearing is not a counter argument since they have no stated size whatsoever in the main canon of dbs, and things like guides are only secondary cannon with anything of the main cannon taking priority over it
Those do not looks like separated dimensions at all, they looks more like large nebulas or dwarf galaxies within the map, and this assumption is baseless as nothing indicate that those are suppost to rappresent separated dimensions.
The argument is whether the map is truly to scale. When super shenron transforms we visibly see the two universes.Episode 28: I've checked, and this was only Whis explaining to Goku & Vegeta that universes come in pairs. The following cinematic is purely to accentuate that, hence why the balls are colored in pairs
Episode 55: There is no mention of those balls representing the Universes, and there is only 6 of them in total which further shows that they don't represent the Universes
Episode 41: What's the evidence of that being situated inbetween Macrocosms? I've looked through the episode, and haven't found any.
Well saidWeak argument, considering as this is Toriyama's direct words
And we're not arguing transformations here, so don't bring up something irrelevant
Could you show this interview? Especially because it's in the same guides we use, where there are several interviews with Akira toriyama.
That’s the quote, I’ll find the interview when i have timeOnly, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
and he did that by showing the said universesEpisode 28: I've checked, and this was only Whis explaining to Goku & Vegeta that universes come in pairs. The following cinematic is purely to accentuate that, hence why the balls are colored in pairs
the balls are consistent with the earlier showing made by whis and the one showed earlier in episode 41Episode 55: There is no mention of those balls representing the Universes, and there is only 6 of them in total which further shows that they don't represent the Universes
it is located in the "neutral space" between universe 7 and 6, stated in episode 29 of dbs, can't find an clip in english to send unfortunatelyEpisode 41: What's the evidence of that being situated inbetween Macrocosms? I've looked through the episode, and haven't found any.
Not going to nobody has made shit arguments but where exactly do anyone of you explain why the map is to scale? That’s one of the Ops main point.FRA disagree
How do you explain there only being 6 balls in the anime, then? Not to mention that the point falls before reaching to this point, as put in context Whis is only visualising Universes being in pairs, the Kaioshin Realm failing to be outside of them, and these universes all being seemingly identical not being possiblethe balls are consistent with the earlier showing made by whis and the one showed earlier in episode 41
OP hasn't exactly given an alternative if the map wasn't to scale, either. If this goes through without that being established in the first place, there'll be an unbelievably huge vacuum needing to be filled in the wiki, and the fact that neither of the two moderators in agreement have addressed this is pretty irresponsible.Not going to nobody has made shit arguments but where exactly do anyone of you explain why the map is to scale? That’s one of the Ops main point.
No, I don't think I will. The OP already gave alternative means of calculating Universe feats:I want both of the moderators that have accepted the proposal to reveal what they think should be the way to calculate feats going forwards, because this isn't something so small to just take away without understanding what would come after it and filling it's vacuum.
Proposal for the anime: simply use the images we have of the universe showed in the anime alongside the basic assumption of the observable universe, and make estimates for the sizes of the other dimensions based on what we know of them, which is that we at least know that they have a star in them
Proposal for the db manga: i guess we can only use the basic observable universe assumption and go on from there, but i believe the logic for the other dimensions proposed above could be used as well
Not going to nobody has made shit arguments but where exactly do anyone of you explain why the map is to scale? That’s one of the Ops main point.
If you need more, call me, see?Yes, the guides and databooks are secondary canon, but treating any information coming from them as headcanon by default unless all of them have been directly stated/show in main canon its bonkers.
Just because King Kai never stated how much big its the Other World is doesn't automatically disgregate all the info about the realm to be universal in size.
That a ridiculous standard, as long there is no direct contradiction the information from guides and databooks are fair to be use as evidence, and if there is some inconsistencies then it still doesn't mean that the rest of the info must be now wrong.
Those do not looks like separated dimensions at all, they looks more like large nebulas or dwarf galaxies within the map, and this assumption is baseless as nothing indicate that those are suppost to rappresent separated dimensions.
If we trully must assume that those visuals are suppost to be fully accurate on scale descriptions that are meant completely retcon the original structure given to Universe 7 (even thought the DBS Manga show the same structure still exist), then we have to say that Other World and Kaioshin Realm are no longer part of Universe 7 (like with ROSAT) and that universes are only 3-C in size.
Yeah, i completely disagree with the CRT.
when did i ever said something like that?Yes, the guides and databooks are secondary canon, but treating any information coming from them as headcanon by default unless all of them have been directly stated/show in main canon its bonkers.
i never even mentioned king kai in the op, we don't accept such statements here nowdays, and strictly use the macrocosm map to calc their sizes and distances, which is what the op is removingJust because King Kai never stated how much big its the Other World is doesn't automatically disgregate all the info about the realm to be universal in size.
in this case there is, the macrocosm map is contradicted size wise by the seriesThat a ridiculous standard, as long there is no direct contradiction the information from guides and databooks are fair to be use as evidence, and if there is some inconsistencies then it still doesn't mean that the rest of the info must be now wrong.
hence why that is only a possibility in the op, since the main point is that there is no reason to assume that they would be visible in the first place, besides we don't know what they would look like, so we can't say that they wouldn't look like thatThose do not looks like separated dimensions at all, they looks more like large nebulas or dwarf galaxies within the map, and this assumption is baseless as nothing indicate that those are suppost to rappresent separated dimensions.
just a reminder that the map suggested for the dbs anime is not being proposed to be used for the mangaIf we trully must assume that those visuals are suppost to be fully accurate on scale descriptions that are meant completely retcon the original structure given to Universe 7 (even thought the DBS Manga show the same structure still exist)
what are you talking about? besides the fact that we see more than one galaxy in the visual, we also have no showing or statement of that being a single galaxy, we are seeing the universe, all we see is a massive center being orbited by numerous glowy points, then we have to say that Other World and Kaioshin Realm are no longer part of Universe 7 (like with ROSAT) and that universes are only 3-C in size.
even with the other points about how the macrocosm map in not in scale size wise?Yeah, i completely disagree with the CRT.
I want you to make it clear that you believe in completely disregarding the guidebook statements, if not explicitly presented in the show itself.No, I don't think I will. The OP already give alternative means of calculating Universe feats:
I also think, we should disregard any agreement with the two administrators, in every DB topic they only appear to demote the verse and then disappear like a ghostOP hasn't exactly given an alternative if the map wasn't to scale, either. If this goes through without that being established in the first place, there'll be an unbelievably huge vacuum needing to be filled in the wiki, and the fact that neither of the two moderators in agreement have addressed this is pretty irresponsible.
Excuse me, but no alternative is actually required.OP hasn't exactly given an alternative if the map wasn't to scale, either. If this goes through without that being established in the first place, there'll be an unbelievably huge vacuum needing to be filled in the wiki, and the fact that neither of the two moderators in agreement have addressed this is pretty irresponsible.
I'm very glad that it is not up to you then.I also think, we should disregard any agreement with the two administrators, in every DB topic they only appear to demote the verse and then disappear like a ghost
watI also think, we should disregard any agreement with the two administrators, in every DB topic they only appear to demote the verse and then disappear like a ghost
What? No. I'm pretty sure I've never said that.I want you to make it clear that you believe in completely disregarding the guidebook statements, if not explicitly presented in the show itself.
I also think, we should disregard any agreement with the two administrators, in every DB topic they only appear to demote the verse and then disappear like a ghost
that is why the point 2 in the op exists, even without the dbs map, the current one used in the calcs is still not reliable to use for calculations since it isn't in scale in sizeWith nothing but pretty ambiguous visuals to go by, more likely than not it's proposed viewer interpretations of said visuals that're inconsistent rather than the actual author himself's words.
show me when we are shown to only have 6 balls, which episode are you talking about? besides the super shenron showing is the most clear one and has no excuseHow do you explain there only being 6 balls in the anime, then?
by showing the said universesNot to mention that the point falls before reaching to this point, as put in context Whis is only visualising Universes being in pairs
ouside of secondary cannon guides, is there any reason to assume that they would be outside? if it contradicts the guides we simply discard the said guide's statement since it is contradicted by the main cannon, the Kaioshin Realm failing to be outside of them
why not?, and these universes all being seemingly identical not being possible
yes i haveOP hasn't exactly given an alternative if the map wasn't to scale, either. If this goes through without that being established in the first place, there'll be an unbelievably huge vacuum needing to be filled in the wiki, and the fact that neither of the two moderators in agreement have addressed this is pretty irresponsible.
that is not the point in the op thoI want you to make it clear that you believe in completely disregarding the guidebook statements, if not explicitly presented in the show itself.
Great!What? No. I'm pretty sure I've never said that.
Great!
Here's a Dragon Ball Super guidebook that shows the same U7 map.
It has not been retconned. What's left now?
the same episode you gave me..show me when we are shown to only have 6 balls, which episode are you talking about? besides the super shenron showing is the most clear one and has no excuse
I'm refuting both the point that the guidebook map shouldn't be used because it was retconned and the Daizenshuu is too old, and I've already refuted the scans in the OP.1 see point 2 in the op, even using the guides a recalc would need to be done
2 it is again, a guide, which is secondary the main cannon and as such, if it contradicts it, then it will not be used
Does it show contradicting itself? You just talk my friend and never show anything, we can show hundreds of proofs in your face and you're like, like I said earlier, that's just the Universe alive observed, it is nothing more than that, it is not the whole macrocosm.1 see point 2 in the op, even using the guides a recalc would need to be done
2 it is again, a guide, which is secondary the main cannon and as such, if it contradicts it, then it will not be used
Great!
Here's a Dragon Ball Super guidebook that shows the same U7 map.
It has not been retconned. What's left now?
2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size.
a screen shot i meantthe same episode you gave me..
Ep 55
that is not the point in the op thoI'm refuting both the point that the guidebook map shouldn't be used because it was retconned and the Daizenshuu is too old
not really, but regardless point 2 still stands since you didn't even touched the arguments in it, and I've already refuted the scans in the OP.
What contradict the macrocosm map? Aside for the visuals used in DBS, which i already stated why its a bad idea.in this case there is, the macrocosm map is contradicted size wise by the series
The way the universes are show make them seen to have just single large galaxy with a few large nebulas/dwarf galaxies orbiting around the main body.what are you talking about? besides the fact that we see more than one galaxy in the visual