Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3

[pineappleman]

Yes, that seems reasonable.

Can each side here do so in a comprehensive, but well-structured and easy to understand manner please?

This post for me

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach." (Daizenshuu 4)
This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.

(Daizenshuu 4)
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."

What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.

And we know that this place HAS to be beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super, since it's littered by stars and light. It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond. There are no contradictions, everything is in line with the show.

Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:

"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives" (Daizenshuu 4)

"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world." (Daizenshuu 7)


People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.

And it's backed up by the show itself, through Yakon and his home planet and the edge of the Observable Universe being lit with stars.

The accompanying Japanese speaker translations

I'll get you more properly translated stuff tomorrow.

And I'll supplement more scans properly translated by a native speaker tomorrow when he wakes up that point to the universe being infinite.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

To add onto what he said above that refutes the universe having an edge argument since it proves there’s a observable and non observable universe and the edge is merely just referring to the parts where light reaches

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'll be simple and straightforward here: The Dragon Ball Universe is referred to multiple times with Infinity in both expansion and "base" size
The only contradictions there would be in this exist (As far as I remember) ONLY in the Anime where the Super Shenron is invoked and we see at a glance the Universal Globes and their limits, now let's quote:

無限 に 広がるる 宇宙 を それれぞれ 王 達 達 が 管理 管理 し いる おもに 方角 によよっ られ られ 、 管理 て を し て るる 方角 によよって 決め られ、 界界 が 管理 管理 し い 場所 て て が を 管理 的 大界 王神 が を 監督 監督 いい と に なっ て い

"The infinitely expanding universe is mainly determined by the direction that each king administers, and the location administered by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of north, south, east, and west Manage the universe. the Great God King must oversee the world whole. "

Basically here quotes the Infinite Expansion of the Universe, let's go to the next one:

未知なるものが息づく光と闇の無限

"An infinite space of light and dark where the unknown lives.""

Daizenshū 4.

It basically says that the Universe is an Infinite Space, next:

無限 に 広がる と 銀河 のの イルミネ イルミネ 何万 何万 ... 何億 何億 ... 光さえ も たどり ぬ 星々 彼方 に は の 光 想像 想像 光 光 光 光 年 年

"Infinite expansion and illumination of galaxies Ten thousands of light years... Hundreds of millions of light years... Countless unknown alien monsters live beyond the stars where light cannot reach."

Daizenshū 4.

Once again about the Infinite Expansion of the Universe and also about the distance from Earth to Namek, but the important thing is about the Universe, nearby:

"The galaxies that exist endlessly in outer space."

Daizenshuu.

Speaking that there are Infinite Galaxies throughout the Universe, next:

"The various Kais govern the infinitely expansive universe [of the world of the living]."

Also from Daizenshuu talking about the Universe Expanding Infinitely, next and last:

"You can imagine how ridiculously big the Milky Way is, and the universe is made up of countless numbers of galaxies just like the Milky Way."

This is a quote from Jaco in the Dragon Ball Super Manga Chapter 6

 

[Tarang123]

what is your evidence for this? they were clearly depicting the physical universes with galaxies and stuff, they didn't show any of the other dimensions and the entire conflict of that arc concerned only the physical universe

Cause this was about the introduction of universe 6 in relation to universe 7? They use this same visual when representing all 12 universes together

 

[omegabronic]

summary of my arguments here:


The counter argument being used for the universe having an edge is that it is the edge of the "observable/light part" of the universe and that after that there is an infinite darkness that is infinite in size, but when we see the universe from an outside perspective we see no greater darkness surrounding a light part of it, which would disqualify this said darkness from even being a thing at all, some brought up how we don't see the other dimensions of the macrocosm, but since they are other dimensions they would be in other planes of existance and wouldn't be seeable from an outside perspective, plus the model used to say that they would be seeable is never used in the dbz manga and dbs anime so the series depiction takes precedence over it anyway, plus the statement itself never specified that it is talking about any observable universe in place of the entire universe, and we have no reason to believe that it is talking about an specific part of it

 

[pineappleman]

some brought up how we don't see the other dimensions of the macrocosm, but since they are other dimensions they would be in other planes of existance and wouldn't be seeable from an outside perspective

DB scaling horseshoe theory, both highball and downplay lead to higher dimensional 5-D afterlife

 

[omegabronic]

DB scaling horseshoe theory, both highball and downplay lead to higher dimensional 5-D afterlife

when i say "plane of existance" i am not talking about any higher dimensional stuff, i hope you understand that plane of existance doesn't mean higher dimension automatically

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

when i say "plane of existance" i am not talking about any higher dimensional stuff, i hope you understand that plane of existance doesn't mean higher dimension automatically

If it’s not a higher dimension then why would it not be able to viewed from outside? If the realms have the same dimensionality they exist on the same dimensional plane making that point moot unless you’re claiming it’s a 5D construct which I don’t think I have to explain what’s wrong with that

 

[omegabronic]

If it’s not a higher dimension then why would it not be able to viewed from outside? If the realms have the same dimensionality they exist on the same dimensional plane making that point moot unless you’re claiming it’s a 5D construct which I don’t think I have to explain what’s wrong with that

we are seeing from the outside perspective of the physical universe, as in, if someone traveled outside and looked at it, we are still in the same dimension, got me? besides it wouldn't be 5D per this site standards, also that was just a tip of my argument thus why i wrotted the "plus the model used to say that they would be seeable is never used in the dbz manga and dbs anime so the series depiction takes precedence over it anyway" bit, now please let us stop this to not clogg the thread, someone should call reiner and nullflower for they to do they summaries and then we can let staff evaluate

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

we are seeing from the outside perspective of the physical universe, as in, if someone traveled outside and looked at it, we are still in the same dimension, got me? besides it wouldn't be 5D per this site standards, also that was just a tip of my argument thus why i wrotted the "plus the model used to say that they would be seeable is never used in the dbz manga and dbs anime so the series depiction takes precedence over it anyway" bit, now please let us stop this to not clogg the thread, someone should call reiner and nullflower for they to do they summaries and then we can let staff evaluate

There’s something’s wrong with this but I’ll let the staff evaluate it so yes you may tell Reiner and Null to give their explanations and then after that ask staff to evaluate the explanations and ask their questions etc.

 

[omegabronic]

.

.

we need summaries of your argumentts

 

[Reiner04]

Where’d he say this, if you don’t mind me asking?

Tier 2 revision thread.

 

[Reiner04]

1. A single (or double) guidebook statement which mostly seems metaphorical and just there for aesthetic introduction rather than smth going into detail.
2. No support from the show.
3. Contradicted in the show as they have edge.
4. Infinite cannot have edge, no, our standards don't allow it.

 

[Tarang123]

1. A single (or double) guidebook statement which mostly seems metaphorical and just there for aesthetic introduction rather than smth going into detail.
2. No support from the show.
3. Contradicted in the show as they have edge.
4. Infinite cannot have edge, no, our standards don't allow it.

1. Hyperbolic seems more accurate than metaphorical.
2. Fair enough
3. Fair enough
4. Probably best to get a mod or staff member to look at this

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

In the explanation above Pineapple, me, and Luffy refuted the edge argument but we still need to wait for Null’s explanation and then we’ll have staff evaluate this as intended so if any of you could get Null to give a detailed explanation on his side that’d be good

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What explanation?

You just aren't allowed to use information from the databooks without substantial backing from the source material on the Wiki. Hell, a Discussion Rule specifically bars the use of old databooks in an attempt to alter the cosmology.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

i agree with this

 

[omegabronic]

1. Hyperbolic seems more accurate than metaphorical.
2. Fair enough
3. Fair enough
4. Probably best to get a mod or staff member to look at this

In the explanation above Pineapple, me, and Luffy refuted the edge argument but we still need to wait for Null’s explanation and then we’ll have staff evaluate this as intended so if any of you could get Null to give a detailed explanation on his side that’d be good

Guys what part of "summary for staff evaluation" you guys don't get? Stop answering, all it does is making the thread longer, leave it to the staff

 

[omegabronic]

What explanation?

You just aren't allowed to use information from the databooks without substantial backing from the source material on the Wiki. Hell, a Discussion Rule specifically bars the use of old databooks in an attempt to alter the cosmology.

A summary for easy staff evaluation

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

1. A single (or double) guidebook statement which mostly seems metaphorical and just there for aesthetic introduction rather than smth going into detail.
2. No support from the show.
3. Contradicted in the show as they have edge.
4. Infinite cannot have edge, no, our standards don't allow it.

Point 3 is really debatable. What's the proof you're using for it?

 

[Reiner04]

Point 3 is really debatable. What's the proof you're using for it?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Serious? Are we going to take Bulma's word as superior to Jaco's? where he claims that the universe is gigantic and not even they discovered the center of the Universe?

 

[Reiner04]

Serious? Are we going to take Bulma's word as superior to Jaco's? where he claims that the universe is gigantic and not even they discovered the center of the Universe?

Bulma is super genius, so she is reliable for Cosmological statements, also jaco didn't said center don't exist but that universe is too big to reach the center from edge. Also we are done with giving summary so don't reply to me for arguing infinitely.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Bulma is super genius, so she is reliable for Cosmological statements, also jaco didn't said center don't exist but that universe is too big to reach the center from edge. Also we are done with giving summary so don't reply to me for arguing infinitely.

Bulma has never been on the edge of the Universe, it is not to be trusted.

 

[omegabronic]

Bulma has never been on the edge of the Universe, it is not to be trusted.

she can measure it with tech, but as reiner said

Bulma is super genius, so she is reliable for Cosmological statements, also jaco didn't said center don't exist but that universe is too big to reach the center from edge. Also we are done with giving summary so don't reply to me for arguing infinitely.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

she can measure it with tech, but as reiner said

Hey, can you show him measuring? Even because their words are not very revealing, since Jacob already refutes her by saying that the universe is huge, it is impossible to find the center, why would we consider Bulma's line above Jaco's?

 

[omegabronic]

why would we consider Bulma's line above Jaco's?

far smarter, also

Also we are done with giving summary so don't reply to me for arguing infinitely.

stop answering

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Serious? Are we going to take Bulma's word as superior to Jaco's? where he claims that the universe is gigantic and not even they discovered the center of the Universe?

But Toby, the Daizenshuu confirmed that Earth was "on the outskirts of the North Galaxy".

 

[Reiner04]

But Toby, the Daizenshuu confirmed that Earth was "on the outskirts of the North Galaxy".

Has been said by wish as well in the anime iirc.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

What explanation?

You just aren't allowed to use information from the databooks without substantial backing from the source material on the Wiki. Hell, a Discussion Rule specifically bars the use of old databooks in an attempt to alter the cosmology.

It’s secondary information it can be used as long as their is no contradictions or doesn’t cause any issues within the series and the discussion rule is outdated some of the things in it that it restricts have already passed so the discussion rule should be gone anyways

The summary is a summary of your refute for infinite db universe which omega and Reiner have done and then we’ll get staff to evaluate it like Ant said above

Bulma has never been on the edge of the Universe, it is not to be trusted.

stop trying to refute your refutes are wrong and their arguments been explained in our summary so no reason to keep chatting just wait for staff and then that’s when you can start refuting

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I disagree with infinite universe based on the arguments given. It seems to openly contradict the source material, and these same arguments have been gone over numerous times already, thus the Discussion Rule.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

There's a pretty efficient way of bypassing the Bulma statement.

And besides, it doesn't affect the Toeiverse.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Guys, can we kindly stop arguing infinite universe? We need AKM for that, he's been the one who made the Discussion Rule, we can't bypass it just because.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Guys, can we kindly stop arguing infinite universe? We need AKM for that, he's been the one who made the Discussion Rule, we can't bypass it just because.

I see your point, but i thought AKM has said he doesn't want to be involved in Dragon Ball threads.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I see your point, but i thought AKM has said he doesn't want to be involved in Dragon Ball threads.

What I mean is that we still need a lot of staff support if he does not want then.

So people like @Antvasima, @KLOL506, @DarkDragonMedeus and the other DB people.

 

[omegabronic]

There's a pretty efficient way of bypassing the Bulma statement.

And besides, it doesn't affect the Toeiverse.

this is a canon cosmology thread, can everyone please stop derailing it with toei?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

What I mean is that we still need a lot of staff support if he does not want then.

So people like @Antvasima, @KLOL506, @DarkDragonMedeus and the other DB people.

Fair enough

 

[pineappleman]

1. A single (or double) guidebook statement which mostly seems metaphorical and just there for aesthetic introduction rather than smth going into detail.
2. No support from the show.
3. Contradicted in the show as they have edge.
4. Infinite cannot have edge, no, our standards don't allow it.

2. Supported by the show via Yakon's planet
3. Only a contradiction if you don't supplement with the guidebooks, and in these situations exactly are where guidebooks should be used
4. The argument we've made is that the edge is that of the Observable infinitely expanding universe, and what lays beyond is the infinite Unobservable Universe.

 

[pineappleman]

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What was the point about Yakon again?