DRAGON BALL SUPER MANGA SPEED UPGRADE :O (PART 2)

[Tom4t0GG789]

Hello Everyone!!

This is the continuation of this previous thread where the speed ratings of DBZ was upgrade. Now this new thread is to talk about speed ratings of DBS manga

Edit: I removed the Goku SSG > Vegito SS3 thing because it seems like it was already accepted in a past thread, also I heard there will be a blog covering more ground on this

Spoiler: Vegito ~ Gods of destructions?

In the Vegito's profile says he rivals Beerus. For the mention of Shin and the V-Jump

But the reason I disagree is because:

Toyotaro in the Comic-Con 2017 says that at the moment we don't know if this is true or not.

Also according Herms the Shin statement is about the Vegito's power and don't is 100% sure that is correct this mention

Spoiler: Goku UI > Gogeta

I don't understand why Gogeta Blue is compared to Super Saiyan Broly

While it can be scaled by mentioning that the base power of a fusion will be higher than the maximum power of the individuals

Which was raised when Goku mentions that the power of a fusion will give one that neither individually would achieve on their own. Something that was demonstrated when Vegetto in Base with a casual attack managed to do more damage than Goku did in SSB or similar to Vegeta with his Gama Burst Flash.

On Gogeta's side it also applies because in base he managed to rivals Super Saiyan Broly (In the novel says that is superior [I need help wiith this]) who previously put aside a Kamehameha and Galick Gun combined by Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta as if it were nothing.

(I know this applies to your anime profile, but I think it should be taken into account when scaling to manga)

So in this case, taking that into account, the minimum would be like this:

Gogeta Base > Goku SSB or Vegeta SSB

Also, according to this panel, Goku UI surpassed Broly Super Saiyan While it can be interpreted with durability, Herms suggested that the most accurate option would be about strength

Edit: According to the manga, Goku doubts his victory against Broly
Which would imply that Gogeta SSB ~ Broly SS Full Power

So it would be Goku UI > Gogeta SSB

And taking into account that the desire to be the strongest in the universe of Granola and Gas does not include the gods of destruction, then:

Beerus > Gas > Goku UI and Vegeta > Gogeta SSB (Broly movie)

And that's about it, hopefully this doesn't derail.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[DivineAura44]

Why wouldn't Vegito be able to do it?

Argument from incredulity?
There's a chance that the Metamoran pulls from power that the Potara doesn't and the Potara doesn't allowed you to transform into a form that both users don't have. I think it's faulty to assume Vegito could go SSJ3 without further evidence.

 

[DivineAura44]

It's also more likely that "I didn't know a world like this existed" is referring to the feeling of God Ki, not his strength.

 

[StekFence]

Honestly, that statement always felt to me like it referred to his power.

It's also more likely that "I never imagined a world like this could exist" is referring to the feeling of God Ki, not his strength.

 

[DivineAura44]

Honestly, that statement always felt to me like it referred to his power.

Fair interpretation, that's just not how I see it. Piccolo's question is likely what makes me feel that way. It's not "How does it feel to be as strong as a God?", it's "How does it feel to become a God?"
If someone asked you the latter, wouldn't you clarify by saying "This amount of power, it's beyond a level I could imagine" if you truly meant strength?

That's just my subjective opinion, I'm probably outnumbered here.

 

[StekFence]

There's a chance that the Metamoran pulls from power that the Potara doesn't and the Potara doesn't allowed you to transform into a form that both users don't have.

This is an assumption that has no basis. The only reason we never see vegito go higher then ssj until the black arc is because he never needed to. And by the black arc, ssj3 was obsolete. Goku is capable of going super saiyan 3, vegito has the same knowledge, and is far more capable. It thus seems more reasonable to assume Vegito could do it, rather than can’t.

 

[Tyri456]

> Also, according to this panel, Goku UI surpassed Gogeta SSB (Broly movie) While it can be interpreted with durability, Herms suggested that the most accurate option would be about strength

That panel imply at best, Moro > Broly

But Gogeta destroyed Broly without effort too, so I don’t really know where this logic comes from.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

> Also, according to this panel, Goku UI surpassed Gogeta SSB (Broly movie) While it can be interpreted with durability, Herms suggested that the most accurate option would be about strength

That panel imply at best, Moro > Broly

But Gogeta destroyed Broly without effort too, so I don’t really know where this logic comes from.

True, sorry, I'll make the change now.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Disagree with the Goku UI > Gogeta Blue thing, because the strongest opponent Goku faced up to that point was either Brolt or Jiren, both are far below Gogeta Blue in terms of power

Considering Gogeta is not mentiomed in the statement and Goku was talking about opponents he faced, I don't think he outright scales above Gogeta. Moro would be stronger than Broly and Jiren though

 

[CryoTheMayo]

There is a clearer argument for scaling UI Goku above Gogeta Blue.

• Piccolo states Fusion would be useless against Moro-73 because he copied Vegeta's Spirit Fission.
• Does this mean it's just Spirit Fission? No. Moro-73 recognises that Spirit Fission requires actually hitting your opponent so he counters Vegeta by simply dodging and attacking. Note the part where it's stated Spirit Fission requires inflicting some level of damage as well.
• What happens when Moro-73 eats a senzu bean and hits UI Goku with full force? His arm snaps.

If, say, Gogeta Blue (who Piccolo has personally witnessed) were to fight Moro-73...wouldn't he be able to just dodge all of Moro's attacks then AP stomp him? Given what's stated by the characters it would imply Moro-73 can consistently tag and even slightly injure Gogeta. Which would imply his speed and AP isn't that far off from him. Yet Moro-73 can't do a single thing against UI Goku, even when Goku lets him hit him he deals not only zero damage but also breaks his own arm. Note that Moro then had to copy Merus' Ultra Instinct just to match Goku.

 

[StekFence]

Doesn’t gogeta spawn in base? If I’m right, wouldn’t that just make him above base gogeta?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Doesn’t gogeta spawn in base? If I’m right, wouldn’t that just make him above base gogeta?

There has never been a circumstance at any point in the Dragon Ball manga where a Super Saiyan transformation has been interrupted. Nor is it ever implied by Piccolo, Goku or anyone else that he's referring to a base fusion. All he states is Fusion. Fusion full stop. As written by the author.

 

[Spinoirr]

There's this scaling blog for the dbs manga

Dragon Ball Super manga scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StekFence]

There has never been a circumstance at any point in the Dragon Ball manga where a Super Saiyan transformation has been interrupted. Nor is it ever implied by Piccolo, Goku or anyone else that he's referring to a base fusion. All he states is Fusion. Fusion full stop. As written by the author.

One might also say that transformations aren’t implied either. Since they weren’t. It’s obviously easier to imagine that the slower and weaker version is easier to defeat. Also, while a super saiyan transformation is pretty much flick of a light switch, it’s still dependent on the reaction of the user. If Moro were faster than the fusion, then he could unfuse them.

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah Moro 73 is possibly faster and stronger then a hypothetical SSB Gogeta given they ruled out fusing despite FSF needed to deal damage and land attacks to work

 

[Damage3245]

According to Goku in the anime and movie even If him and Vegeta get fused don't have chance against Beerus

In the manga there isn't this mention but Goku after get the Super Saiyan God says that never image that this world exist

I will make a supossed. I think that Goku make reference at Vegito SS3. If Gotenks can became in SS3. Why wouldn't Vegito be able to do it?

For this motive I considerate that Goku SSG > Vegito SS3 (Buu Saga)

Vegito has never canonically tried to go Super Saiyan 3 at this point in the story, so I don't believe that these reasons are good enough to conclusively say SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito.

I'd be fine with SSG Goku > SS Vegito though.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

One might also say that transformations aren’t implied either.

Transformations are integral to the entire story. Implying Piccolo and Goku weren't factoring them in with their assessment is odd.

Since they weren’t. It’s obviously easier to imagine that the slower and weaker version is easier to defeat. Also, while a super saiyan transformation is pretty much flick of a light switch, it’s still dependent on the reaction of the user. If Moro were faster than the fusion, then he could unfuse them.

Again, this has never happened in the manga. I can't recall a single instance where a Super Saiyan transformation is ever interrupted in this way. And pretending this is what Toyotaro meant when he wrote these lines for the characters is incredibly off.

What did Toyotaro write? Fusion would be useless because of Spirit Fission. Did he write that it would be because they can't transform in time? No. Just that Fusion would be useless. Did he write that Spirit Fission can be countered with superior speed? Yes. Meaning he is writing that a fusion would not be fast enough to dodge Moro-73's attacks and beat him with AP.

There is no sense to claiming he was only talking about 'base fusions' or factoring in that Moro could 'interrupt transformation' or some other rationale. Because such a precedent doesn't exist, this is never stated by any of the characters and transformation is an implicit thing. It is, frankly, bizarre to try and derive that kind of meaning from what was stated.

If you require more supporting evidence. Goku claims he has never met anyone as tough as Moro-73. Which would include Broly, as they spoke about him at the start of the saga. You could even extrapolate that to refer to Gogeta Blue. Goku also doesn't even factor Broly in when suggesting who could be the strongest in the universe at the start of the Granolah Saga. This would include Blue Evolved Vegeta in 'us'. Meaning Goku scales Blue Evolved Vegeta above Full Power Broly. And this is before Vegeta has any significant training as this is day 1 of him training under Beerus. Blue Evolved is, at best, relative to -Sign- Goku.

UI Goku = UI Moro >>>> Moro-73 >> UIS Goku ~ SSBE Vegeta > FPSS Broly

So given the massive leap UI Goku has over Moro-73 and Moro-73 stomping people superior to FPSS Broly and being scaled above FPSS Broly by Goku. Why would I think Piccolo's statement is referring to base fusion?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Vegito has never canonically tried to go Super Saiyan 3 at this point in the story, so I don't believe that these reasons are good enough to conclusively say SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito.

I'd be fine with SSG Goku > SS Vegito though.

Would SS3 Vegito be 2-C with a finite power increase over SS?

 

[Damage3245]

Would SS3 Vegito be 2-C with a finite power increase over SS?

I'm just referring to speed ratings, not AP.

And me saying "I don't think SSG Goku can be rated over SS3 Vegito for this reasoning" isn't the same thing as me saying "I think SS3 Vegito should be > SSG Goku".

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm just referring to speed ratings, not AP.

And me saying "I don't think SSG Goku can be rated over SS3 Vegito for this reasoning" isn't the same thing as me saying "I think SS3 Vegito should be > SSG Goku".

The same question applies. Would SS3 Vegito be 2-C despite SS Vegito being 4-B? If not then wouldn't we accept that God is a superior multiplier to SS3 Vegito? Which would then mean SSG Goku's speed scales above a hypothetical SS3 Vegito?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Moro

There is a clearer argument for scaling UI Goku above Gogeta Blue.

• Piccolo states Fusion would be useless against Moro-73 because he copied Vegeta's Spirit Fission.
• Does this mean it's just Spirit Fission? No. Moro-73 recognises that Spirit Fission requires actually hitting your opponent so he counters Vegeta by simply dodging and attacking. Note the part where it's stated Spirit Fission requires inflicting some level of damage as well.

Moro was able to hit and steal energy from SSG Vegeta previously, who had a big AP gap over him, so much so that he drained him completely out of energy even before wishing his youth.

Even if Gogeta starts stronger than Moro, it wouldn't take long for Moro to steal Gogeta's energy and use Forced Spirit Fission to defuse them, rendering Gogeta useless

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Moro

Moro was able to hit and steal energy from SSG Vegeta previously, who had a big AP gap over him, so much so that he drained him completely out of energy even before wishing his youth.

Yeah no. Vegeta had no idea how Moro's energy absorption worked until after he fought him. The entire point was Moro hiding his intentions and stealing Vegeta's energy when he had no knowledge of it. And that wasn't Spirit Fission, that was Moro's energy absorption. Which is a passive AoE effect. Not a damage-based effect.

Even if Gogeta starts stronger than Moro, it wouldn't take long for Moro to steal Gogeta's energy and use Forced Spirit Fission to defuse them, rendering Gogeta useless

Nope. This is just more extrapolation from nothing. UIS Goku is too fast for Moro to use his energy absorption against. Moro himself states he only uses energy absorption to satiate his hunger and that he will save eating Goku's energy for after beating him. Once again, Piccolo refers specifically to Spirit Fission when he states Fusion won't work against him when it requires landing hits on the opponent and can be countered by blitzing the opponent, much like how even Moro's energy absorption can be countered with pure speed. So even if Piccolo was thinking of Moro's energy absorption (he wasn't) it would be countered the exact same way as Spirit Fission would be. And both Goku and Vegeta have knowledge of how to counter Spirit Fission and Moro's Energy Absorption.

So your argument is baseless. If Gogeta Blue is faster than UI Goku. Who transcends UIS Goku in speed. Then Moro's Energy Absorption won't work at all and Gogeta would dodge all of Moro-73's attacks and beat him effortlessly with AP. Much like how he dodged most if not all of Broly's attacks after going Blue.

The only way Moro-73 is beating Gogeta Blue is if he has relative speed to him. Otherwise Gogeta Blue will blitz him and beat him effortlessly. And if he has relative speed, he has relative power. Because of UES.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And that wasn't Spirit Fission, that was Moro's energy absorption. Which is a passive AoE effect. Not a damage-based effect.

I never said it was spirit fission? But the absorption would allow Moro to steal Gogeta's energy even if Gogeta is stronger and defuse him back to Goku and Vegeta with Forced Spirit Fission

And both Goku and Vegeta have knowledge of how to counter Spirit Fission and Moro's Energy Absorption.

Vegeta couldn't stop Moro from absorbing his energy, he was just able to steal it back with Forced Spirit Fission, but now that Moro have it too, that no longer works. Ultra Instinct is just innately immune to these affects unless they can't dodge, like with Planet Angel Moro VS UI Goku in the end

So your argument is baseless. If Gogeta Blue is faster than UI Goku. Who transcends UIS Goku in speed. Then Moro's Energy Absorption won't work at all and Gogeta would dodge all of Moro-73's attacks and beat him effortlessly with AP. Much like how he dodged most if not all of Broly's attacks after going Blue.

The energy absorption is passive, it's not an attack Gogeta can dodge, and the energy Moro would take from Gogeta will allow him to defuse them

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I never said it was spirit fission?

Which makes it irrelevant.

But the absorption would allow Moro to steal Gogeta's energy

Nope.

Vegeta couldn't stop Moro from absorbing his energy, he was just able to steal it back with Forced Spirit Fission, but now that Moro have it too, that no longer works. Ultra Instinct is just innately immune to these affects unless they can't dodge, like with Planet Angel Moro VS UI Goku in the end

What are you even talking about now? SSBE Vegeta was weaker than Moro. And you previously said SSG Vegeta. Who had no awareness of how Moro's energy absorption worked.

The energy absorption is passive, it's not an attack Gogeta can dodge, and the energy Moro would take from Gogeta will allow him to defuse them

I literally just posted a scan showing Moro has to activate the technique and that it can be dodged with pure speed. Here, I'll help you. It's this one. And don't tell me it's about instinctive movements. The characters all clearly state it's about movement speed. If Gogeta Blue is faster than UI Goku then he's going to dodge Moro's energy absorption just fine.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok I'll concede on the point regarding the absorption, but there's a much simpler point regarding Piccolo's statement:

Piccolo can't sense god ki, so he has no idea at all how strong SSB Gogeta really is, meaning he doesn't actually know if Gogeta is weaker or stronger than Moro

 

[Spinoirr]

Ok I'll concede on the point regarding the absorption, but there's a much simpler point regarding Piccolo's statement:

Piccolo can't sense god ki, so he has no idea at all how strong SSB Gogeta really is, meaning he doesn't actually know if Gogeta is weaker or stronger than Moro

And yet Goku and Vegeta didn't even try to fuse into Gogeta

 

[Damage3245]

And yet Goku and Vegeta didn't even try to fuse into Gogeta

Well, they don't have that opportunity in the first place. Vegeta gets beaten quite thoroughly by Moro after Piccolo points out that fusion would be useless anyway.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ok I'll concede on the point regarding the absorption, but there's a much simpler point regarding Piccolo's statement:

Piccolo can't sense god ki, so he has no idea at all how strong SSB Gogeta really is, meaning he doesn't actually know if Gogeta is weaker or stronger than Moro

Yeah except Goku doesn't disagree with Piccolo. Hell, he even shows a face of shocked realisation. Toyotaro is being transparent in what he is trying to communicate to the reader here.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

I'm just referring to speed ratings, not AP.

And me saying "I don't think SSG Goku can be rated over SS3 Vegito for this reasoning" isn't the same thing as me saying "I think SS3 Vegito should be > SSG Goku".

The point is that in DB, as already accepted on this site, is that the AP is related to the Speed
So if A > B in AP
Then A > B in Speed

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And yet Goku and Vegeta didn't even try to fuse into Gogeta

Vegeta also hates fusing and will never do it unless there's literally no choice left

 

[Damage3245]

The point is that in DB, as already accepted on this site, is that the AP is related to the Speed
So if A > B in AP
Then A > B in Speed

Sure, I get that, I'm just not very in favour of extrapolating multipliers from that.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think Damage makes the most sense.

 

[Tom4t0GG789]

Sure, I get that, I'm just not very in favour of extrapolating multipliers from that.

Well I don't have problem with Goku SSG > Vegito SS

 

[Ednaxel2]

Did the last thread get accepted?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Sure, I get that, I'm just not very in favour of extrapolating multipliers from that.

What extrapolating? It's just using multipliers that are already accepted for a form that we know Vegito should have access to. Because Gotenks has it when neither of his fusees can go past SS1 whereas Goku and Vegeta are both SS2s and Goku can already go SS3.

• Vegito is 4-B. He will remain 4-B even if he goes Super Saiyan 3. Which we know would be 8x SS Vegito and we know he should have the form because Gotenks has it.
• SSG Goku is always going to scale above the Fusion multiplier of Vegito because the leap of God is from 4-B to 2-C.
• Due to UES the leap also means speed.

We already scale God Goku to at least 160,000x Base because of the logic that Base Vegito is superior to SS3 Goku and that even if Vegito were to go 400x with SS3 (which we have every reason to think he can do) he would still be weaker than God Goku. 400 x 400 = 160,000x. This applies to speed as well.

Logically speaking we would multiply God Goku's speed by 160,000x because of that multiplier being a blatant thing that is also just an extreme lowball. So God Goku should be >400x faster than SS3 Goku. That would mean:

Buu Saga SS3 Goku = >172,800,000c (accepted in the previous thread)
BoG SS Goku = >172,800,000c (Scales to Kid Buu-level)
BoG SS3 Goku = >1,382,400,000c (8x SS1)
BoG SSG Goku = >552,960,000,000c (400x SS3)

This is all using already accepted multipliers and rationale.

 

[Damage3245]

@CryoTheMayo By that logic you could say that since Super Saiyan God Goku would be stronger than Vegito even if Vegito had a million times multiplier, then he could be rated as being a million times faster too.

Do we actually scale God Goku to at least 160,000 base? Even though the gap between 4-B and 2-C is infinitely higher than that? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; like picking and choosing whether the mutliplier actually applies or not.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

@CryoTheMayo By that logic you could say that since Super Saiyan God Goku would be stronger than Vegito even if Vegito had a million times multiplier, then he could be rated as being a million times faster too.

Do we actually scale God Goku to at least 160,000 base? Even though the gap between 4-B and 2-C is infinitely higher than that? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; like picking and choosing whether the mutliplier actually applies or not.

I have an idea. Why don't you pick?

Either SSG is a 160,000k multiple that let Goku jump two tiers because plot, (confirming you can make infinite jumps with linear boosts),or it's an infinite multiplier. There we go.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@CryoTheMayo By that logic you could say that since Super Saiyan God Goku would be stronger than Vegito even if Vegito had a million times multiplier, then he could be rated as being a million times faster too.

No. We don't scale God as an infinite multiplier just because it takes Goku from 4-B to 2-C. We take the most reasonable lowball value possible. Which is SS3 Vegito. Because God is a new level of power beyond anything else in the manga. There are no universe-level threats in the manga until BoG.

Do we actually scale God Goku to at least 160,000 base? Even though the gap between 4-B and 2-C is infinitely higher than that? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; like picking and choosing whether the mutliplier actually applies or not.

Yes. We do. I'm surprised you're even arguing in this thread when you aren't aware of the accepted multipliers. A lowball multiplier at that. And we aren't 'picking and choosing' whether the multiplier applies. This is simply a happy medium. That was accepted. And it is cited in accepted blogs on the verse page.

 

[Damage3245]

No. We don't scale God as an infinite multiplier just because it takes Goku from 4-B to 2-C. We take the most reasonable lowball value possible. Which is SS3 Vegito. Because God is a new level of power beyond anything else in the manga. There are no universe-level threats in the manga until BoG.

Yes. We do. I'm surprised you're even arguing in this thread when you aren't aware of the accepted multipliers. A lowball multiplier at that. And we aren't 'picking and choosing' whether the multiplier applies. This is simply a happy medium. That was accepted. And it is cited in accepted blogs on the verse page.

I'm aware of the accepted multiplier, just not how seriously we treat them.

To repeat though, I'm fine with it being based off of Super Saiyan Vegito, but not a hypotheticaly Super Saiyan 3 Vegito. Other people may be fine with it, but I'm not convinced currently. If, as you say, we're aiming for the most reasonable lowball value here than this is what seems to best to me.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm aware of the accepted multiplier, just not how seriously we treat them.

I'm not so sure what you mean by 'how seriously we treat them'. It's an accepted multiplier for use on the VSBW. So we can use it.

To repeat though, I'm fine with it being based off of Super Saiyan Vegito, but not a hypotheticaly Super Saiyan 3 Vegito. Other people may be fine with it, but I'm not convinced currently. If, as you say, we're aiming for the most reasonable lowball value here than this is what seems to best to me.

Okay. I want you to explain your reasoning to me. Why can't we scale God Goku's speed value above a hypothetical SS3 Vegito? The only justification I can think of is that you think Vegito can't go Super Saiyan 3 when a pair of SS1 kids fusing can.