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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85

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SomebodyData said:
@PFM Pretty sure you were debunked in a thread before by nearly everyone in the thread. Sorry if its the wrong person, but if you can't even prove your arguments, its pretty petty to just continue to complain.
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If you're referring to the thread that I made in the Content Revision section, that's probably the way some people interpreted it, but it's just not true. Most of the replies were "Oh mai gawd this is dumb", or "this thread is garbage", or "No, he wasn't angry! This is stupid". They were just terribly substantive.

The only person that made any semblance of a counterargument used "evidence" that was blatantly false. The dialogue he used as evidence was factually false, and the order of events was not as he described, and his whole argument depended on these things being true. Basically, I did debunk this entire premise but this site didn't want to accept it.

Also, there's no such thing as "proof" of anyone's argument. All of these arguments are inherently subjective, it's a matter of who has a stronger argument, not who can definitely prove anything. This is not mathematical induction, there's no such proof.
 
I can't believe we almost got the vice shoot removed from everyone except Super Buu and Gotenks, thanks god the topic was brough up in that other thread.
 
It's an appeal to Ignorance.

I get we don't give Existence Erasure or Time Manip to Goku due to him not being shown to do either but here you have a feat where literally the only way it can be preformed is through sheer AP and we nearly took it away from people BILLIONS of times stronger than Super Boo and Gotenks XD.
 
Bruh I hate how quicky that decision was but not a single soul is thinking about the fact that Super 17 and SSJ4 Goku have Danmaku techniques. It's all about what we can take away from Dragon Ball XD
 
Yeah it seems people are a lot quicker to take off abilities the Zeno resistance and Goku black durability negation comes to mind while it can take awhile to add something like Danmaku or Goku resistance to BFR
 
I agree. The limited spacetime manipulation has always been AP related. Gotenks, Buu, Goku, Anilaza, Broly and Gogeta have all done it with brute power. I also agree that the resistances (Such as EE and Time) are pretty clearly related to powerful Ki. In Frieza's case, it seems like it's pure skill but Vegeta was blatantly overpowering Toppo's Hakai with his powerful Ki.

Anyone scaling to Jiren should have Time Manip resistance and anyone scaling to SSBE Vegeta should have EE resistance, in my opinion.
 
because this site is hellbent on treating every verse with the same set of inapplicable rules......like saying 3-a and low 2-c are different when in many verses they are the same

glad that obd does not follow this shitty stuff and give soul destruction resistance to everyone who scale
 
Do I have to bring up Monster Rabbit working on stronger opponents?

Or literally every case of Mafuba? Frieza resisting EE? Cell's / Majin Buu's Absorption? etc
 
Monster Carrot's ability can't be overpowered. Mafuba has never been resisted, only deflected via superior power/control, Cell's absorb would be based on his own power relative to his opponent (he has to swallow them or stab them, both requires for them to either be vulnerable or weak enough for him to pierce) and Buu's absorb seems to be pretty much impossible to resist if he can restrain you.

EE has been controlled and tanked by Frieza and completely overpowered by Vegeta. Time Manipulation is outright stated to be resisted by Jiren as a result of his power, no special traits or capabilities. Just raw power.

In other words, both EE and Time hax have been resisted with brute power unlike every example you provided, which has no relation to EE or Time hax. The only one that should be resistable is Cell's absorption, due to relying on piercing and draining the opponent or them being vulnerable enough for him to suck into his tail.
 
agree with cryo not all hax but at least some like time and erasure should scale.....i want to ask beerus hakai or erasure is treated as body destruction + soul destruction?? because it destroys both body and soul??
 
@Hri ye, thats why its considered EE.

@Cryo which defeats the AP argument for hax. You can resist sealing and absorption, my argument is the AP v hax thing in general.

You could make an argument for Time Manip and EE specifically, but then that would be a weakness for the techniques rather than a resistance, mostly because every other time ki hasn't been shown to resist things through sheer strength.
 
Hakai has never once been stated or shown to work on stronger opponents, and every time it's been tried against a stronger opponent it failed. On top of the fact that people with Hakai are still helpless servants to those who are stronger than them. The only reason people assume it works on stronger people is the site's standards on hax, which is to act as if Dragon Ball canon cares about what a foreign fan wiki's guidelines are. Whether that's deemed a resistance for everyone or a weakness to the attack I'm indifferent, but I'm tired of some people acting like Toppo could Hakai Grand Priest.

EDIT: This isn't in response to anyone in particular I'm just expressing my thoughts on the topic since it was kinda brought up.
 
I honestly don't understand your claim. Are you trying to say that all Ki techniques/abilities should fall under the exact same resistance/immunity? So the Mafuba should be treated as the same as a Hakai?

You are claiming it's a 'flaw in the technique', but you can also apply that to virtually every power system in all of fiction. In fact, you can apply that to virtually everything in reality as well.

Inherently speaking, where does any Dragon Ball character resist sealing techniques, transmutation or assimilation? Is there any basis indicating they can resist or overpower such hax? If there is no such basis, you can't claim Hakai and Cage of Time are just 'flawed' unless there is a basis for flawed transmutation, flawed assimilation or flawed sealing.

Consider it from this perspective:

  • Character A has a technique that breaks every bone in his target's body
  • Character B trains his body so relentlessly that his bones are unbreakable, every character scaling to Character B or higher also has unbreakable bones due to it being the nature of raw power rather than a technique or specific ability
  • Hence, Character B (and everyone scaling to or above them) would have unbreakable bones.
Now say if we used it with your logic:

  • Character C's technique paralyses the opponent, and can not be resisted.
  • Since Character C's technique can not be resisted, Character A's technique, having only been capable of breaking breakable bones, is thus 'flawed'
  • Therefore, characters with unbreakable bones do not truly have unbreakable bones, they are just resisting a 'flawed' bone breaking technique.
  • This all makes sense because Character A, B and C are using the same energy to fuel their techniques
Do you see the flaw here? Jiren resists Time Manipulation and Vegeta resists Existence Erasure, via brute force. They simply overpower the hax. But you are claiming, since DB characters lack resistances to sealing, transmutation or assimilation, it means that the Time and EE hax is simply flawed despite being completely separate techniques, using completely different hax. Their only correlation is using the same energy.

So apparently, Jiren can't resist EE and Vegeta can't resist Time Manipulation, even though their resistances is purely a result of power because they can't resist other hax such as sealing, and this is due to them sharing the same energy as the basis for said techniques which is, honestly, completely nonsensical when compared to any other power system.

The entire point is moot, anyways. Nothing indicates Monster Carrot's transmutation is Ki-related. Buu's assimilation is related to his physiology, same as Cell. The only actual technique you mention is Mafuba, which has never been resisted, even then it can be deflected.

Hakai uses destruction energy as the basis for its hax, rather than just Ki, so it shouldn't even apply to the resistance argument in the first place.

Overall, your argument could only apply to Time resistance versus Sealing resistance as both, presumably, Ki techniques.

tl;dr All of the techniques you mention (barring Mafuba) are either physiology-related or never stated to be Ki-related. Hakai uses energy separate/different from Ki alongside Ki (energy of destruction as well as Ki) making it too different to compare to resisting pure Ki techniques.

Your overall argument only adheres to Mafuba versus Time Skip and nothing else, but we have seen multiple characters resist time manipulation via brute force (Goku and Jiren) and destroying/tearing spacetime has been a thing since the Buu saga so Time resistance isn't far-fetched.
 
Does anyone know how far the 'canonicity' of DBZ Kakarot extends? I've heard Toriyama has written segments of the game and it's considered to be 'official' by him, but I never looked into it.

Just wondering, because there may be a shitstorm of DB revisions within a week of Kakarot's release, tomorrow, and everyone will know what I mean when they see it.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Just wondering, because there may be a shitstorm of DB revisions within a week of Kakarot's release, tomorrow, and everyone will know what I mean when they see it.
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Quit being ominious. Just tell us what it is pls ƒæÇ
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Does anyone know how far the 'canonicity' of DBZ Kakarot extends? I've heard Toriyama has written segments of the game and it's considered to be 'official' by him, but I never looked into it.
Just wondering, because there may be a shitstorm of DB revisions within a week of Kakarot's release, tomorrow, and everyone will know what I mean when they see it.
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Toriyama gave the team element of lore and backstories that he didn't include in the manga apparently and wrote some stuff for them, his biggest contribution is apparently Bonyu and her backstory as an Ex-Ginyu members, she was fully made by him but the team didn't really include her in the end for unknown reason (she's only there as a virtual training thing apparently)

Could be wrong though since the game will only be playable in 2 days.
 
Let's just say the postgame apparently has elements from 2-B Dragon Ball media and leave it at that, should be vague enough for people to not be spoiled and find out themselves.

@Dragomer It's hard to say if the 2-B Dragon Ball media will be canonised due to Kakarot then, but his direct involvement in the game might give it enough weight for 2-B Zeno.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Let's just say the postgame apparently has elements from 2-B Dragon Ball media and leave it at that, should be vague enough for people to not be spoiled and find out themselves.
@Dragomer It's hard to say if the 2-B Dragon Ball media will be canonised due to Kakarot then, but his direct involvement in the game might give it enough weight for 2-B Zeno.
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We'll see, once the game is out, there will probably be more info about it's developement and then it will just be a matter of collecting them to jauge Toriyama's involvement, we could end up with a DBO situation.

Also i want to remind people that Toriyama has been noted to have a fondness for Mira and Towa back in the DBO days so linking canon DB to that wouldn't be out of character for him and could thus be his decision.
 
@Cryo nah, I was saying that I was debating against those saying that AP can resist hax in general in DB, not time stop or EE specifically.
 
SomebodyData said:
@Cryo nah, I was saying that I was debating against those saying that AP can resist hax in general in DB, not time stop or EE specifically.
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Ah, okay. That would be my poor interpretation then, apologies.

Granted, Vegito indicates it's possible to maintain consciousness and fight in a transmuted form, likely due to Ki whereas other fighters (like Krillin) can't do anything while transmuted. So Vegito transmuted by Monster Carrot might be capable of acting and fighting like he did as a jawbreaker.

So overall, I'd say the one true kryptonite to Dragon Ball characters is anything related to sealing and petrification.
 
That's kinda because DB is very Wuxia inspired and few thing as are OP as sealing in Wuxia stuff, even stuff stronger than everyone else combined can get sealed in that kind of story (not all seals have the same strength usualy though).
 
Haven't watched Super in years, so I didn't remember that scene. I'm not sure if that would line under resistance, considering it seems like Trunks is just destroying the spit with his Ki rather than resisting the petrification itself...but that just gets into some pretty silly semantics.

So, yeah. Sealing is the one true kryptonite of Dragon Ball. The only instance I can recall of it being resisted would be Demigra, but he was sealed for millions upon millions of years and had to develop power to break free.
 
It looks like he's more deflecting it. I remembered the scene after it ended because it showed off Trunks's skill/go hard from the get go personality with him defeating Babidi and Dabura before Buu could become a problem for him. I mean, granted he did have help from Kaioshin but it was still cool/
 
I hold the impression that Piccolo and Frost weren't actually resisting the Mafuba, just deflecting/controlling the technique. The Mafuba itself isn't a sealing technique, it's a technique that moves the opponent into the seal.

The sealing jar is what they would actually have to resist to count as 'sealing resistance' IMO, considering it's the only aspect of the technique that actually has any sealing involved.

And yeah, it seems more like Trunks is deflecting the spit from hitting him rather than resisting any form of petrification. If he was actually struck by the spit, he'd most likely be incapable of stopping the petrification.
 
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