Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 84

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So, I'd like to go ahead and reiterate that the moment Goku dropped SSG, he was still fighting on par with Beerus, as if SSG hadn't dropped. There's a whole fight sequence before Goku instinctively goes SSJ post-SSG,, where Goku not only blocks and dodges blows from Beerus, but takes hits and dishes them out in return, with no apparent drop in potency despite SSG having "worn off", and without using Super Saiyan transformations.

Yes. This is true. Hence why I said that SSJ=SSG when he dropped out isn't a claim its just a fact. And obviously Goku got stronger from there.

Still failing to follow your logic. Base Goku post-SSG = SSG by the evidence of Base Goku post-SSG keeping up with Beerus without getting one-shot.

Super Saiyan is a 40x-50x multiplier. If Base Goku was 40-50x weaker than SSJ Goku, Beerus would have one-shot him the moment SSG failed, as Beerus is not stated to regulate his power level beyond the 10% quote against Vegeta or the 70% quote as he fights SSG Goku. Given the quote from the movie, where Beerus flat out states that Goku absorbed SSG into his body, a lack of contradicting evidence or statements to this in the anime version (please post scans if you have evidence otherwise), I legitimately fail to see where you're getting the idea that only SSJ=SSG after the latter wore off.

Logically speaking, it doesn't make sense that Goku got weaker as he returned to base after SSG, considering his performance against Beerus in that same moment is the same as when he was still in SSG-form.

It makes much more sense to imply that only by going SSJ did he surpass SSG, as it is supported by both fight scenes and dialogue in the anime and movie versions.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Anyone here has a Buu saga render for SSJ2 Vegeta? The one we're using on his DBZ profile has inaccurate clothing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Anyone here has a Buu saga render for SSJ2 Vegeta? The one we're using on his DBZ profile has inaccurate clothing.

This was all I could find.

 

[PFM18]

So, I'd like to go ahead and reiterate that the moment Goku dropped SSG, he was still fighting on par with Beerus, as if SSG hadn't dropped. There's a whole fight sequence before Goku instinctively goes SSJ post-SSG,, where Goku not only blocks and dodges blows from Beerus, but takes hits and dishes them out in return, with no apparent drop in potency despite SSG having "worn off", and without using Super Saiyan transformations.

Yes. This is true. Hence why I said that SSJ=SSG when he dropped out isn't a claim its just a fact. And obviously Goku got stronger from there.

Still failing to follow your logic. Base Goku post-SSG = SSG by the evidence of Base Goku post-SSG keeping up with Beerus without getting one-shot.

First, that never happened. Goku never fought Beerus during Base for any sort of prolonged period, he didn't even fight him directly at any point during the fight. Second, "He wasn't one shot" is barely evidence at all. it's not exactly a powerful argument. Many, MANY characters didn't get one shot for PiS reasons, and SSG didn't get one shot either, so the comparison doesn't even make sense.

Super Saiyan is a 40x-50x multiplier. If Base Goku was 40-50x weaker than SSJ Goku, Beerus would have one-shot him the moment SSG failed, as Beerus is not stated to regulate his power level beyond the 10% quote against Vegeta or the 70% quote as he fights SSG Goku. Given the quote from the movie, where Beerus flat out states that Goku absorbed SSG into his body, a lack of contradicting evidence or statements to this in the anime version (please post scans if you have evidence otherwise), I legitimately fail to see where you're getting the idea that only SSJ=SSG after the latter wore off.
No idea why you are mentioning the 70% comment, that's movie-only. And the 10% comment was obviously a lie just as the 100% comment was a lie. Not that it is relevant. I have no idea why you are even mentioning the movie. We are talking about Super, not the movie. In the movie continuity it isn't true either, but for clearly different reasons. And yes, Goku did absorb SSG into his body, I don't know why you are acting as if I am disputing that. I am getting the idea that SSJ=SSG when the latter wore off because of the statements by Beerus and Goku when it happened, Goku said he isn't any weaker, Beerus agrees and explains why. And Goku performs at the same level. There's literally no ambiguity there. I honestly have no idea what your argument even is. You are all over the place.

Logically speaking, it doesn't make sense that Goku got weaker as he returned to base after SSG, considering his performance against Beerus in that same moment is the same as when he was still in SSG-form.
Again, that never happened. Goku and Beerus didn't really fight at all.

It makes much more sense to imply that only by going SSJ did he surpass SSG, as it is supported by both fight scenes and dialogue in the anime and movie versions.
...yeah? That's what I have been saying this entire time? Only by going SSJ, and not in his Base form, does Goku surpass SSG during BoG. The "Absorbed into Base" crap is horseshit. Again, you're all over the place. No idea what you are arguing, at this point you seem to be agreeing with me.

 

[Xantospoc]

Beerus fought base Goku in episode he was disguised as Monaka in a later episode. While Beerus was obviously holding back, he was genuinely having fun in the fight, somethng he didn't while fighting SSG

 

[PFM18]

Beerus fought base Goku in episode he was disguised as Monaka in a later episode. While Beerus was obviously holding back, he was genuinely having fun in the fight, somethng he didn't while fighting SSG

We are talking about BoG.

 

[AKM sama]

Gohan: Screams "STOP HURTING MY DAD!" and then bursts through the ship and headbutts Raditz, enraged that Raditz was beating the shit out of his dad.
Vegeta: Screams "THAT'S MY BULMA!" and then powers-up showing an unrivaled onslaught against Beerus, enraged that Beerus had slapped his wife.

Goku: Screams "SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" and punches Beerus's SoD, destroying it, enraged that Beerus had "decided" his limits.
Yeah, the third one is different. Gohan was in tears and enraged because he had to watch the constant screaming of his dad who was in pain. No wonder he snapped. Vegeta had a moment dedicated to showing his power up as soon as Beerus hit Bulma, he also snapped. Goku had a moment dedicated to showing his power up when he heard about Chichi and Goten's death, he also snapped. Same with SSJ2 Gohan.

Goku didn't snap in this moment. Beerus teased Goku and decided his limits many times in that fight prior to that moment and Goku never snapped. There was no moment of power up. You seem to be under a false impression that screaming = rage by default. No it doesn't.

You yourself admitted that Goku was constantly getting stronger throughout the fight, even after SSG faded and he surpassed the level of SSG in his SSJ. SSJ > SSG. So it becomes far more logical that it was the usual growth in power that was ever-present from the moment Goku transformed into SSG and every time he was pushed to his limits during that fight, rather than saying "rage boost" which is completely unsupported by the context. Same as the part where you said SSG > Base Goku (post BoG), that is complete headcanon and outright dismissed by evidences in RoF.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Happened in the movie, at least. Solid 2-3 minutes of Base Goku post-SSG fighting Beerus on a still-even playing field in the cave sequence. Can't say for the anime, I never felt particularly inclined to watch basically the same plot as the movie, but needlessly altered (and poorly animated at the time of release, to boot).

As for my point, my point is that RoF/post-SSG base Goku >/= SSG, RoF/post-SSG SSJ > SSG, SSB (RoF) >> SSJ (RoF/post-SSG) > base Goku (RoF/post-BoG)/SSG (BoG).

Only by transforming into SSJ does he surpass BoG's SSG, otherwise he's more or less equal to it by the time of RoF, likely slightly stronger than it.

And even if it were true that post-SSG Base Goku in BoG is weaker than SSG, it's made crystal clear that's not the case in RoF, with statements from Beerus and Whis supporting Goku's growth since BoG.

It's honestly a moot point you're arguing in any case; the math would still support 3-A base BoG Goku even if one concedes that BoG SSJ = SSG. 40-50x less than a 3-A rating that includes at least one other infinite spacetime is still a 3-A rating.

 

[Ovrhide]

if we go with what was explicitly shown in the anime. right at the moment he lost ssg, he kept its power in his ssj form.

so by the end of the Bog arc, his base form is 50x weaker than his SSG form was at the time.


By the time he was fighting Freeza, it was state that he was stronger than ever before in just base. so he improved over 50x while training with whis, which right now, we know its a rate that we have seen in later arcs.


thats about as clear cut as the anime gets without speculating too much.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree with Ovrhide said but I also want to present something else that may support Goku in Base having the SSJG power.

Goku was gradually getting stronger during his battle with Beerus. By the time he absorbed the power in his SSJ form he had already surpassed the SSJG power and even had more i

store. This is evident when Goku said he went full power with SSJG but was still releasing more power as a SSJ.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Even Beerus knew this and was egging Goku on to use more power with statments like "Doesn't the power of a god lie within you?" and "Shouldn't you have more power than this?" and when Goku started to let more power out Beerus muttered "That's it." When you think of it, the final part of the fight was Beerus pushing Goku to his very limit which makes the scene where Base Goku destroys the Sphere of Destruction, make some sense .

 

[AwkguyDB]

Finally the icing on the cake is Vegeta directly said that even if he harnessed the power of SSJG he'd be second fiddle still to Goku Implying that Goku didn't just make the power his own but perfected it and surpassed it . He evolved through his battle with Beerus.

 

[ByAsura]

This whole argument about Base Super Goku should be brought up in this thread, not here.

Changing the subject, I don't like Moro as the villain in Dragon Ball Chou, he seems like a copy-paste of every evil character in fiction. At least Buu had conniption every five seconds and imperfect/semi-perfect Cell was an absolute creep.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

I kind of liked him, but only on the fighting style and techniques side. His character has a plain personality and the most cliché objective of all time: ImMa KiLl UnIvErSe

 

[Dragomer]

The most boring aspect is how he was hyped up as a kind of 'god tier' version of Babidi, with magic and stuff while in the end, his only 'magic' is just a ranged version of Gero's absorption.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Moro is very disappointing, I agree.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Moro not only should of been this life drainer that absorbs energy but this major telepath that should of used the Dragon Ball Universe against Goku and Vegeta. Imagine how different the story would of been if Moro made Beerus be his bodyguard or something due to some crazy willbending mind control.

 

[Ovrhide]

I kind of liked him, but only on the fighting style and techniques side. His character has a plain personality and the most cliché objective of all time: ImMa KiLl UnIvErSe

his plan actually isnt that. he stated what he wanted.


but moro has been a bit dissapointing.

 

[ZERO7772]

Moro is still a big step up from Jiren.

DBS "antagonist" are pretty lackluster in genreal comapred to DBZ. The only actual villains that happened so far were Black and Moro "Frieza is a rehash from Z" everyone else were just antagonists due to the situation forced on them

 

[Dragomer]

Meh, Heroic Opponents with a 'i was a shonen MC but lost' backstory is infinitely better than 'i'm an inferior rehash of Z era guys'.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I'm gonna be honest.

Where the **** is Freeza during this whole "Moro" thing? You'd think he'd be made aware if some of his henchmen had escaped from the Galactic Patrol, or that there's a would-be challenger to his "Emperor of the Universe" title cavorting around space.

 

[DMB_1]

New Namek is in not where the original one was, so Frieza is probably on an entirely different part of the universe. And I very much doubt that frieza would care if a few of his soldiers escaped a prison since he kills many of them when he is even slightly nervous.

 

[ByAsura]

Does anyone know where the no time in the afterlife thing is?

 

[Dragomer]

Does anyone know where the no time in the afterlife thing is?

It was when Goku was explaining his SSJ3 or whatever, no ?

 

[Ionliosite]

Is the bolded part not a good enough reason for ya?

For the record, Gegege no Kitarou actually predates Dragon Ball. Kitarou's manga came out way before DB's manga.

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

Gegege no Kitarou actually slaps though. They made fun of Logan Paul in one episode.

 

[Dragomer]

Gegege no Kitarou is so old the anime has nothing to do with the actual manga though, at least design wise.

 

[ByAsura]

Is it possible I could get a translation on this?

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

Which part in particular?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Probably all of it.

 

[ByAsura]

Nevermind about that, Qawsedf already gave me one.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Nevermind about that, Qawsedf already gave me one.

Can I see it?

 

[ByAsura]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3815998#2

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

This whole argument about Base Super Goku should be brought up in this thread, not here.

 

[BlastX]

What-If Universe Official Power Scaling.

 

[PFM18]

If nobody ends up responding to my thread, then I'm going to bring the discussion back here by the way.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, but try to be a tad patient instead of bringing it up if anyone doesn't respond for two days, or something like that.

 

[AwkguyDB]

So anybody have predictions for the Manga?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If nobody ends up responding to my thread, then I'm going to bring the discussion back here by the way.

I'm pretty sure that's derailment, which is a violation IIRC.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

If nobody ends up responding to my thread, then I'm going to bring the discussion back here by the way.

What kind of childish tantrum is this?