Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 53: when everything is cool

[AKM sama]

17 is above ssj1 Goku pre-ToP but definitely not SSB level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He isn't above SSJ1 Goku as of now. Current Base Goku is far stronger than the Base Goku who fought 17.

See his first fight against Kale Pre-Jiren and his second fight against Kale and Caulifla Post-Jiren.

 

[Blanked]

I like how i was saying Android 17 is not SSB level from the day the episode came out for same reasons Mat is now saying, but was ignored entirely...

 

[Huesito88]

That's what I've been saying

 

[AKM sama]

Yeah, edited my comment

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I like how i was saying Android 17 is not SSB level from the day the episode came out for same reasons Mat is now saying, but was ignored entirely...

Because at the time there wasn't that much evidence he wasn't and everyone got caught in the hype of SUPER 17.

17 is really stronk and definitely 3-A but he is at best SSJ1 Goku level.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

In my opinion, 17 is a wild card. He is 3-A, but to an unknown extent. His power is all over the place. He didn't stonp Rozie, but he is superior to 18 who beat Ribrianne and even fought Ribri earlier in the arc. He fluctuates a lot.

 

[Peter1129]

Because at the time there wasn't that much evidence he wasn't and everyone got caught in the hype of SUPER 17.

17 is really stronk and definitely 3-A but he is at best SSJ1 Goku level.

So you're just going to ignore the part where Goku said he didn't intend to go SSB. Which indicates he skipped SS2, SS3 and SSG because 17 was too powerful for those forms.

I know it's debatable if he's Pre-Jiren SSB lvl but saying he's only at most Pre-Jiren SS1 lvl is too much.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

He isn't above SSJ1 Goku as of now. Current Base Goku is far stronger than the Base Goku who fought 17.
See his first fight against Kale Pre-Jiren and his second fight against Kale and Caulifla Post-Jiren.

Nobody has even said that Goku has powered up that significantly post Jiren.

SS2 Caulifla before and after Jiren was doing well against Goku.

But there is no actual way of finding out if Goku and Vegeta were even going all out in base. They can hold back to their opponent's level. I personally never use their base forms to gauge anyone else's strength. Sure their full powered base is 3-A, but they can go from normal human level, PL of 10, 8-C to literally any tier using their base forms.

Agreed.

 

[Blanked]

@Peter He used SSB against Krilin as well.

He used SSB because he wanted to show Android 17 his new powers.

 

[Jinx666]

Didn't they also say that 17 would be a troublesome enemy for Goku and the gang, way after he got SSB ofc.

And Ribrianne at full rage, which we can assume is her Ribriannes form strongest was able to contend with 17 on fairly even grounds. She did push back SSj2 Vegeta, and the fact was, Base Goku wasnt harming her...Ribrianne seems to be extremely pain tolerant, she gets kicked and thrown around a lot but she gets up afterwards like it was nothing, barely any marks, nothing. He was forced to turn SSB, but his Base was still a solid 3-A after absorbing God energy. It was only this episode that she finally converted out of her Ribrianne form, but still had enough energy to restrain 18. She's definitely 3-A, just more of a lower kind i guess.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

@Peter He used SSB against Krilin as well.
He used SSB because he wanted to show Android 17 his new powers.

Different. He said to 17 that he didn't intent to use the form against him.

 

[Blanked]

We all agree Ribriane is 3-A. Heck barely anyone in the tournament is not rated 3-A at this point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Goku visibly got stronger simply by virtue of comparing his first fight against Kale and the second.

It makes sense, Goku exerted himself to the extreme and broke his limits and got reduced to exhaustion, then healed by Freeza, and then during the fight with Caulifla and Kale the constant beating triggered him to break his limits again.

This is how Saiyan biology work. Zenkai Boosts or whatever you wanna call it. They have a low-key adaptive strength, they grow in power the more they are hurt, push themselves to their limits, and reach near-death expereinces.

 

[Peter1129]

@Peter He used SSB against Krilin as well.

He used SSB because he wanted to show Android 17 his new powers.

Are we really doing this again?! Goku only went SSB to try and scare Krillin while holding back. But he straight up said he didn't intend to go SSB against 17. He could've powered up slowly like he did against Gohan but instead he went SSB and skipped all the other forms.

 

[Blanked]

Different. He said to 17 that he didn't intent to use the form against him.

What he said really means nothing. He said he could beat low 2-C Zamasu and yet he is not ranked low 2-C in SSB. He even got his ass kicked by fusion zamasu figures infinite.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Goku visibly got stronger simply by virtue of comparing his first fight against Kale and the second.It makes sense, Goku exerted himself to the extreme and broke his limits and got reduced to exhaustion, then healed by Freeza, and then during the fight with Caulifla and Kale the constant beating triggered him to break his limits again.
This is how Saiyan biology work. Zenkai Boosts or whatever you wanna call it. They have a low-key adaptive strength, they grow in power the more they are hurt, push themselves to their limits, and reach near-death expereinces.

That fight was homage to Broly. And goku said he would release a little more power than SS2. We can not know how much he unleashed. Son no that's a bad example. Goku didn't get hurt at all by Kale. Also, Sayains do get stronger but many characters comment on it. Like how Kale got stronger with true Beserk. Nobody commented about Goku's growth. Only for his UI growth.

Compare his fight against Caulifla and that argument fails.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Matthew you said that 17 wasn't Blue level period. You never said he isn't Blue level current Goku, no you said 17 was never near Blue level and he was weaker then SSJ Goku.

Next time Matthew make your words clearer or this confusion won't happen.

You made it seem that you didn't execpt that 17 ever fought Blue Goku period.

But yeah I agree Goku currently is stronger now but my god man you scared me for a second.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Why do we have a scaling war every discussion thread? You guys really make things much worse than they actually are and by extension overcomplicated things. DBS stuff is simple. However, you guys are letting your own biases and crap make it complicated. Dragon Ball even with all of its horrible powerscaling is very easy to scale.

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, the reasons I think base Goku is not a reliable power scaling source:

• His full powered base is 3-A, sure.

• But he can vary his level from normal human level to his full power state.

• He can get hurt by a laser.

• He can get hurt by a bullet, same as when he was a child.

• He can fight normal humans without killing them.

• He can fight evenly with Roshi, a High 4-C, without stomping.

• He can fight evenly with Krillin, a High 4-C, without stomping.

• He can even fight evenly with Ganos, whose base form was weaker than Roshi's, without stomping.

• He can stomp ssj3 Gotenks, a 4-B.

• He can fight with a suppressed Beerus.

• He can fight Rebrianne evenly, without stomping.

• Then Rebrianne grows wings and becomes more powerful, Goku says that he will use more strength and still fights her evenly in base.

All in all, he can vary his power and match the opponent's level. He does not always use his "full powered" base. The only implication we get that someone is above his full powered base is when Goku transforms into ssj1.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Different. He said to 17 that he didn't intent to use the form against him.

What he said really means nothing. He said he could beat low 2-C Zamasu and yet he is not ranked low 2-C in SSB. He even got his ass kicked by fusion zamasu figures infinite.
Beacuse Goku is the character to go down, without a fight.... That's how Shounen characters are... Never give up etc

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why do we have a scaling war every discussion thread? You guys really make things much worse than they actually are and by extension overcomplicated things. DBS stuff is simple. However, you guys are letting your own biases and crap make it complicated. Dragon Ball even with all of its horrible powerscaling is very easy to scale.

This. All of this, times a hundred.

People argue with preferences and headcanons when it comes to DBS. Blame the fanbase's obsession with power levels and scaling.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I agree with Matthew 100 percent.

His wording was strange because he I thought he meant Android 17 was weaker then SSJ Goku when they first fought.

But hey who's stronger 17 or Gohan.

(Now I leave forever)

 

[Peter1129]

This. All of this, times a hundred.

People argue with preferences and headcanons when it comes to DBS. Blame the fanbase's obsession with power levels and scaling.

You do know you're the one who started it by saying Android 17 is only at most SS1 Lvl without specifying which SS1 Goku it is right? You should've worded it better. Like at least say Post-Jiren Goku.

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Matthew, it's impossible to guess to current power levels of the characters since it varies from episode, but the fanbase is still trying to gauge the power levels of like even Zen'o.

 

[Blanked]

You are overreacting with this "war" thing. A discussion thread is made to discuss after all. Calling it a war every time people disagree on each other opinions is overreacting.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Matthew 100 percent.
His wording was strange because he I thought he meant Android 17 was weaker then SSJ Goku when they first fought.

But hey who's stronger 17 or Gohan.

(Now I leave forever)

Gohan.

It is Goku > Vegeta / Freeza > Gohan > 17 for the U7 3-As.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I ******* died when Zeno mimiced Rozie's Yachaina Fist.

 

[Peter1129]

Gohan.

It is Goku > Vegeta / Freeza > Gohan > 17 for the U7 3-As.

No it's like this Goku > Vegeta / Frieza > Android 17 / Gohan.

We don't even know who's stronger between Gohan and Android 17 yet. All we know is they are both in between the lvl of Pre-Jiren SSG and SSB Goku.

 

[AKM sama]

I ******* died when Zeno mimiced Rozie's Yachaina Fist.

Ditto lol

 

[Jinx666]

@AKM sama

Base form Goku was barely even hurting Ribrianne, just throwing her around a bit, he had to go SSB to actually one shot her new form...which i dont even think was that hard to break seeing as it was just some weakass wings.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stop the 17 bias. 17 fought a suppressed Blueberry Goku on a sparring match. Ultimate Gohan fought a 100% Blueberry Goku who needed Kaioken to knock him down.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I ******* died when Zeno mimiced Rozie's Yachaina Fist.

I know right? And the "love!" in the end of the episode lmao.

 

[Dark649]

@AKM sama
Base form Goku was barely even hurting Ribrianne, just throwing her around a bit, he had to go SSB to actually one shot her new form...which i dont even think was that hard to break seeing as it was just some weakass wings.

But Base Vegeta showed to handle her in an easy degree.

 

[Peter1129]

Stop the 17 bias. 17 fought a suppressed Blueberry Goku on a sparring match. Ultimate Gohan fought a 100% Blueberry Goku who needed Kaioken to knock him down.

Said Gohan is thought by Beerus and the others to be no match for Golden Frieza who is Pre-Jiren SSB lvl. This is not bias it's literally shown in I think episode 111. Gohan isn't SSB Lvl. He's just like Android 17 in between Pre-Jiren SSG and SSB.

 

[Dark649]

Said Gohan is thought by Beerus and the others to be no match for Golden Frieza who is Pre-Jiren SSB lvl. This is not bias it's literally shown in I think episode 111. Gohan isn't SSB Lvl.

But Gohan after fighting several foes and likely tired to a degree, was able to fight Golden Frieza in order to trick Frost.

 

[Jinx666]

Well yeah, but 17 was also surpressed too, to an unknown extent. The most likely place we see him at his full power was him fighting full power Ribrianne, where he was visibly yelling, and afterwards both him and Bri-Bri were barely out of juice. Ribrianne never used that Maidens rage full power thing on Goku, so its hard to really scale 17 to that, i mean the teletubby one shot his android barrier casually, that took the SSB Kamehameha.

 

[Peter1129]

But Gohan after fighting several foes and likely tired to a degree, was able to fight Golden Frieza in order to trick Frost.

Well it's either that. Or Beerus even after witnessing Ultimate Gohan's Full power against Pre-Jiren SSB Goku still thinks Golden Frieza is stronger.

 

[Blanked]

@Dark Frieza and Gohan explained they were holding back so that is not a feat.

 

[PaChi2]

Oi, about 18.

There is only one time in all the ToP that she powers up, and that was yesterday's episode. That wasnt power of love, that was Android 18 getting actually serious and giving her all. She has explained that she is there to win for her family. 18 has trained with krillin, she has a reason for the power up.

Im perfectly fine with 3-A 18 if:

It doesnt scale to anyone as she is the one with the 3-A feats, unlike the others from U7.

Her performance against Majora: she was suppresed, just like freaking goku in 90% of his matches.

Whatevs, tho.