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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Taking the highest available value as a baseline:
  • Base: 533,525.275 tons (Class M)
  • Kaio-ken: 1,067,050.55 tons (Class G)
  • Great Ape: 5,335,252.75 tons
  • Kaio-ken x20: 10,670,505.5 tons
  • Super Saiyan: 26,676,263.8 tons
  • Third Grade Super Saiyan: 266,762,638 tons
  • Super Saiyan 2-3: 266,762,638+ tons
  • Super Saiyan God: 133,381,318,750 tons (Class T)
  • Super Saiyan Blue: 6.66906594e+12 tons (Class P)
  • Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken: 1.33381319e+13 tons
  • Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20: 1.33381319e+14 tons
  • Ultra Instinct -Sign-+: 1.33381319e+14+ tons
omg class p LS goku would be SOOO NICE, i would abuse that telekinesis on vs matches
 
Taking the highest available value as a baseline:
  • Base: 533,525.275 tons (Class M)
  • Kaio-ken: 1,067,050.55 tons (Class G)
  • Great Ape: 5,335,252.75 tons
  • Kaio-ken x20: 10,670,505.5 tons
  • Super Saiyan: 26,676,263.8 tons
  • Third Grade Super Saiyan: 266,762,638 tons
  • Super Saiyan 2-3: 266,762,638+ tons
  • Super Saiyan God: 133,381,318,750 tons (Class T)
  • Super Saiyan Blue: 6.66906594e+12 tons (Class P)
  • Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken: 1.33381319e+13 tons
  • Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20: 1.33381319e+14 tons
  • Ultra Instinct -Sign-+: 1.33381319e+14+ tons
And this isn't even taking in account the scaling chains of Dragon Ball to super
 
Ignoring the possibly lethal 6 tons of 100g or the 20 kg/40 lb/10 ton/40 ton weights that encumber the main cast time and time again,
I mean, I was just talking about having an LS multiplier using the transformations. So I think things would start with this 40 ton thing.

Furthermore, the Vegeta in the DBS manga is class M, but doesn't he also have difficulty lifting the few-ton robot?

Even if we only take into account the 4x of the SSJ that went from 10 tons to 40, there would probably still be an inconsistency.

But anyway, we have also been shown that ssj transformations increase the LS.

In this scenario or we have several calculations above 40 tons (which causes problems for Goku Boo Saga), isn't it appropriate for the author's death? I don't know.
 
Remember outliers are only apply to feats that would buff a verse. It can't possibly be that the writers just don't know how strong the characters they write are. And as we all know, we take every writer's word at 100% face value.
 
That's why Beerus should be Low 1-C via Hakai, he erased Dr. Mashirito out of existence and Dr. Mashirito survived numerous amount of narrative erasure.
 
I mean, I was just talking about having an LS multiplier using the transformations. So I think things would start with this 40 ton thing.

Furthermore, the Vegeta in the DBS manga is class M, but doesn't he also have difficulty lifting the few-ton robot?

Even if we only take into account the 4x of the SSJ that went from 10 tons to 40, there would probably still be an inconsistency.

But anyway, we have also been shown that ssj transformations increase the LS.

In this scenario or we have several calculations above 40 tons (which causes problems for Goku Boo Saga), isn't it appropriate for the author's death? I don't know.
vegeta just got stronger, his class M feat was after that, and then add the multipliers
 
Furthermore, the Vegeta in the DBS manga is class M, but doesn't he also have difficulty lifting the few-ton robot?
Auta Magetta weighs over 1,000 tons, and Vegeta's Class M feat is just under—948.144576 tons (Class K). Additionally, Vegeta performed said feat in the Galactic Patrolman Saga, as in way after the Tournament of Power, and way after the Zero Mortals Plan, and, thus, way after the Tournament of Destroyers.

Kale lifted Magetta above her head with one arm, and Gohan stalemated Kefla. Vegeta probably scales either way.
 
Auta Magetta weighs over 1,000 tons, and Vegeta's Class M feat is just under—948.144576 tons (Class K). Additionally, Vegeta performed said feat in the Galactic Patrolman Saga, as in way after the Tournament of Power, and way after the Zero Mortals Plan, and, thus, way after the Tournament of Destroyers.

Kale lifted Magetta above her head with one arm, and Gohan stalemated Kefla. Vegeta probably scales either way.
Definitely.
 
Auta Magetta weighs over 1,000 tons, and Vegeta's Class M feat is just under—948.144576 tons (Class K). Additionally, Vegeta performed said feat in the Galactic Patrolman Saga, as in way after the Tournament of Power, and way after the Zero Mortals Plan, and, thus, way after the Tournament of Destroyers.

Kale lifted Magetta above her head with one arm, and Gohan stalemated Kefla. Vegeta probably scales either way.
so what do you think of multipliers being used?
 
Why Beerus Low 1-C EE is a Outlier:

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? Yes
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Yes
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? Yes
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Yes
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? DB and Dr. Slump aren´t from the same narrative, so it would be impossible
 
Auta Magetta weighs over 1,000 tons, and Vegeta's Class M feat is just under—948.144576 tons (Class K). Additionally, Vegeta performed said feat in the Galactic Patrolman Saga, as in way after the Tournament of Power, and way after the Zero Mortals Plan, and, thus, way after the Tournament of Destroyers.

Kale lifted Magetta above her head with one arm, and Gohan stalemated Kefla. Vegeta probably scales either way.
I understand, I'm not a reader of the manga, I just watch it from above.
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
bros tweaking 💀
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
True if huge
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
tier 11 db is now confirmed
 
If we do decide to use multipliers for lifting strength. I would suggest starting the scaling chain from a super feat, then adding multipliers from that. Since Goku struggled to move his body with 40 tons on it in base.

So we don’t have any outlier talk.
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
As a Toriyama friend i can confirm that everything in that sentence is true
 
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/goku-world-of-darkness.162548/ 🥶
 

Not gonna lie, the profile really irks me for some reason.
 

Not gonna lie, the profile really irks me for some reason.
needs updating fr
 

this one needs to be updated
 
Why Beerus Low 1-C EE is a Outlier:

Beerus doesn't get low 1c for EEing Mashirito and being able to EE Arale, hakai gets 5D ee potency, there is not any tier upgrade here whatsoever. Erasing a person is purely hax and durability negation. The only time EE counts towards AP is when a structure (tier 2 and above) is affected. Beerus erasing Mashirito is just EE potency hax upgrade for hakai, Beerus resisting arale's toon force is just resistance. UES doesn't take his stats to low 1c because arale doesn't need low 1c durability to rank ee, she needs resistance, if Beerus had ee'd a timeline, then UES would allow us state that his other stats follow as well, that'd be different. There will not be low1C Beerus, just potency upgrade for hakai and a resistance for Beerus

There is a staff thread on this matter right now, EE on a person has no effect on tiers whatsoever

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? Yes
This applies to Juno in tiers, which isn't happening here, Beerus remains 2xlc, this also doesn't apply in cases where feats are scarce according to the rules, POD has barely been used in the series, this is the first time it's come up against something with 5D EE resistance and it worked.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Yes
No, after erasing Mashirito, he was also going to do the same to arale, both of which have 5D ee resistance, again, lack of general POD feats means this point doesn't even apply, there are 2 meetings between a 5d EE resistance person and POD, both of which POD cane out on top, erasing one and stated to be about to erase the other

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? Yes
How is it unexplained? POD has been explained in the series, Whis, a reliable source explained that Beerus could erase anyone within the universe and he did that to mashirito and was going to do the same to arale.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Yes

No it doesn't, this just makes hakai have 5D potency, not to mention Beerus doesn't go up or down the scale in dragon ball, everyone stronger than him stays the same, he still scales to other GoDs as we saw his scuffle with Champa, he's still fodder to angels as they resist his hakai. This is more of a general upgrade on EE resistance and hax for several characters

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? DB and Dr. Slump aren´t from the same narrative, so it would be impossible
That's not what this requirement means, example, it's a fact that super shenron can give abilities that can allow one survive EE from a GoD, of Beerus somehow EE's someone down the line that was given immortality or invulnerability by SS without any explanation, that's a narrative break and we pick the more reliable one


Edit: my quote is malfunctioning on my phone, most of my replies are within the quoted space
 
If we do decide to use multipliers for lifting strength. I would suggest starting the scaling chain from a super feat, then adding multipliers from that. Since Goku struggled to move his body with 40 tons on it in base.

So we don’t have any outlier talk.

There is a consistent gap in their ability to lift things over their head and weighted clothing.

Every single 'low end" feat they have us with weighted clothing (barring the megatta scene)

Goku/krillin pushing 500 or so ton boulder a shirt distance but training with 40kg,

Goku flipping a 116 ton piccolo while 113kg weights pose a challenge (this is the equivalent of wearing an armor the weight of an egg and flipping a full grown man)

The 40 tons is the same (it's 4000 tons actually, gravity was 100x I believe), weighted clothing


It's a similar thing to their travel and combat speed gap

At best, a note should be stated that their lifting strength in db/DBZ isn't the same when carrying weighted clothing just as there's one talking about travel and combat speed

Especially since their lifting strength is shown to be affected by their ki
 
How strong Xeno Pan is?
As far as I'm aware she's the weakest member of the Time Patrol shown in SDBH. It should go something like:

LBSS4 Goku = LBSS4 Vegeta > SSG Trunks ? Ultimate Goten > SS4 Gohan >>>> Pan

Trunks is somewhat odd because with SSG he was able to overcome threats equivalent to SS4/SSB fusions but, from what I know, isn't too impressive afterwards. I think he's somewhere above SS4/SSB level but probably below LBSS4/SSBE level.

Where exactly Pan lies is hard to gauge because she has no real notable combat roles or feats but she's probably weaker than any of the base Time Patrollers (Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Trunks, Base Goten, Base Gohan)
 
There is a consistent gap in their ability to lift things over their head and weighted clothing.
Yeah, I agree. We don't conflate Travel Speed with Combat Speed because it's noted that traveling longer distances consumes Ki rapidly. Goku moving behind his opponent in a flash can easily be FTL and consume minimal energy but moving from one end of the planet to the next ends up taking much longer and consuming way more energy because of constantly outputting the power.

The same thing applies to striking strength. Goku's punch can definitely match his Kamehameha but that depends on how much Ki he puts into a punch. Not all of his normal punches are as strong as a charged punch would be.

As such it's very likely that LS varies with the level of Ki exerted. Training long periods with weights is probably going to consume tons of Ki but I'm sure Goku can briefly lift a large amount of weight if it's just for a few seconds. For example Yuzun can lift and throw a 20,000 ton building but that doesn't mean he can exert the Ki to lift that weight for hours of training.

Using Ki in bursts? Very easy to do. Using Ki for significant periods of time? Rapidly runs out.

A good example might be Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta and Goku both believe FPSS3 can instantly wipe Kid Buu out but Goku can't reach his full power no matter how hard he tries. It just takes too much time to power up and that time ends up wasting his Ki. Another example could be Piccolo's faith that Ultimate Gohan can overpower Cell Max if he charges his Ki for long enough.

We rarely see the true potential of Ki because Ki gets wasted too much or they don't get the time to charge it properly. That's what Vegeta is talking about in Super Hero with needing to relax your body (0) and power up instantly (100) to make the most out of your power.

tl;dr
Ki drains very quickly. Only good in bursts. Vegeta is learning to master that as of Super Hero. Goku and co. are much stronger than we think, they just don't get the chance to go full power often and suck at using Ki for long periods.
 
As far as I'm aware she's the weakest member of the Time Patrol shown in SDBH. It should go something like:

LBSS4 Goku = LBSS4 Vegeta > SSG Trunks ? Ultimate Goten > SS4 Gohan >>>> Pan

Trunks is somewhat odd because with SSG he was able to overcome threats equivalent to SS4/SSB fusions but, from what I know, isn't too impressive afterwards. I think he's somewhere above SS4/SSB level but probably below LBSS4/SSBE level.

Where exactly Pan lies is hard to gauge because she has no real notable combat roles or feats but she's probably weaker than any of the base Time Patrollers (Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Trunks, Base Goten, Base Gohan)
Is she in Low 1-C or weaker?
 
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