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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vegito

Vegito is the Potara Fusion of Son Goku and Vegeta, who had appeared in two sagas; The Goku black saga and the Majin Buu saga. Originally formed to defeat Majin Buu after he had absorbed Gohan, and later reappearing to fight Fusion Zamasu. While all fusions have immense power, Vegito's power is...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Not gonna lie, the profile really irks me for some reason.
 
NishizumiShiho said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Vegito

Vegito is the Potara Fusion of Son Goku and Vegeta, who had appeared in two sagas; The Goku black saga and the Majin Buu saga. Originally formed to defeat Majin Buu after he had absorbed Gohan, and later reappearing to fight Fusion Zamasu. While all fusions have immense power, Vegito's power is...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Not gonna lie, the profile really irks me for some reason.
Click to expand...
needs updating fr
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Vegito (DBS Manga)

Vegito is the Potara Fusion of Son Goku and Vegeta, originally formed to defeat Majin Buu after he had absorbed Gohan, and later reappearing to fight Fusion Zamasu. While all fusions have immense power, Vegito's power is abnormal even by Potara standards, as Vegeta and Goku's intense rivalry has...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

this one needs to be updated
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Why Beerus Low 1-C EE is a Outlier:

Beerus doesn't get low 1c for EEing Mashirito and being able to EE Arale, hakai gets 5D ee potency, there is not any tier upgrade here whatsoever. Erasing a person is purely hax and durability negation. The only time EE counts towards AP is when a structure (tier 2 and above) is affected. Beerus erasing Mashirito is just EE potency hax upgrade for hakai, Beerus resisting arale's toon force is just resistance. UES doesn't take his stats to low 1c because arale doesn't need low 1c durability to rank ee, she needs resistance, if Beerus had ee'd a timeline, then UES would allow us state that his other stats follow as well, that'd be different. There will not be low1C Beerus, just potency upgrade for hakai and a resistance for Beerus

There is a staff thread on this matter right now, EE on a person has no effect on tiers whatsoever

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? Yes
This applies to Juno in tiers, which isn't happening here, Beerus remains 2xlc, this also doesn't apply in cases where feats are scarce according to the rules, POD has barely been used in the series, this is the first time it's come up against something with 5D EE resistance and it worked.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? Yes
No, after erasing Mashirito, he was also going to do the same to arale, both of which have 5D ee resistance, again, lack of general POD feats means this point doesn't even apply, there are 2 meetings between a 5d EE resistance person and POD, both of which POD cane out on top, erasing one and stated to be about to erase the other

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? Yes
How is it unexplained? POD has been explained in the series, Whis, a reliable source explained that Beerus could erase anyone within the universe and he did that to mashirito and was going to do the same to arale.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Yes

No it doesn't, this just makes hakai have 5D potency, not to mention Beerus doesn't go up or down the scale in dragon ball, everyone stronger than him stays the same, he still scales to other GoDs as we saw his scuffle with Champa, he's still fodder to angels as they resist his hakai. This is more of a general upgrade on EE resistance and hax for several characters

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? DB and Dr. Slump aren´t from the same narrative, so it would be impossible
Click to expand...
That's not what this requirement means, example, it's a fact that super shenron can give abilities that can allow one survive EE from a GoD, of Beerus somehow EE's someone down the line that was given immortality or invulnerability by SS without any explanation, that's a narrative break and we pick the more reliable one


Edit: my quote is malfunctioning on my phone, most of my replies are within the quoted space
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
If we do decide to use multipliers for lifting strength. I would suggest starting the scaling chain from a super feat, then adding multipliers from that. Since Goku struggled to move his body with 40 tons on it in base.

So we don’t have any outlier talk.
Click to expand...

There is a consistent gap in their ability to lift things over their head and weighted clothing.

Every single 'low end" feat they have us with weighted clothing (barring the megatta scene)

Goku/krillin pushing 500 or so ton boulder a shirt distance but training with 40kg,

Goku flipping a 116 ton piccolo while 113kg weights pose a challenge (this is the equivalent of wearing an armor the weight of an egg and flipping a full grown man)

The 40 tons is the same (it's 4000 tons actually, gravity was 100x I believe), weighted clothing


It's a similar thing to their travel and combat speed gap

At best, a note should be stated that their lifting strength in db/DBZ isn't the same when carrying weighted clothing just as there's one talking about travel and combat speed

Especially since their lifting strength is shown to be affected by their ki
 
NishizumiShiho said:
How strong Xeno Pan is?
Click to expand...
As far as I'm aware she's the weakest member of the Time Patrol shown in SDBH. It should go something like:

LBSS4 Goku = LBSS4 Vegeta > SSG Trunks ? Ultimate Goten > SS4 Gohan >>>> Pan

Trunks is somewhat odd because with SSG he was able to overcome threats equivalent to SS4/SSB fusions but, from what I know, isn't too impressive afterwards. I think he's somewhere above SS4/SSB level but probably below LBSS4/SSBE level.

Where exactly Pan lies is hard to gauge because she has no real notable combat roles or feats but she's probably weaker than any of the base Time Patrollers (Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Trunks, Base Goten, Base Gohan)
 
Jaakor48 said:
There is a consistent gap in their ability to lift things over their head and weighted clothing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree. We don't conflate Travel Speed with Combat Speed because it's noted that traveling longer distances consumes Ki rapidly. Goku moving behind his opponent in a flash can easily be FTL and consume minimal energy but moving from one end of the planet to the next ends up taking much longer and consuming way more energy because of constantly outputting the power.

The same thing applies to striking strength. Goku's punch can definitely match his Kamehameha but that depends on how much Ki he puts into a punch. Not all of his normal punches are as strong as a charged punch would be.

As such it's very likely that LS varies with the level of Ki exerted. Training long periods with weights is probably going to consume tons of Ki but I'm sure Goku can briefly lift a large amount of weight if it's just for a few seconds. For example Yuzun can lift and throw a 20,000 ton building but that doesn't mean he can exert the Ki to lift that weight for hours of training.

Using Ki in bursts? Very easy to do. Using Ki for significant periods of time? Rapidly runs out.

A good example might be Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta and Goku both believe FPSS3 can instantly wipe Kid Buu out but Goku can't reach his full power no matter how hard he tries. It just takes too much time to power up and that time ends up wasting his Ki. Another example could be Piccolo's faith that Ultimate Gohan can overpower Cell Max if he charges his Ki for long enough.

We rarely see the true potential of Ki because Ki gets wasted too much or they don't get the time to charge it properly. That's what Vegeta is talking about in Super Hero with needing to relax your body (0) and power up instantly (100) to make the most out of your power.

tl;dr
Ki drains very quickly. Only good in bursts. Vegeta is learning to master that as of Super Hero. Goku and co. are much stronger than we think, they just don't get the chance to go full power often and suck at using Ki for long periods.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
As far as I'm aware she's the weakest member of the Time Patrol shown in SDBH. It should go something like:

LBSS4 Goku = LBSS4 Vegeta > SSG Trunks ? Ultimate Goten > SS4 Gohan >>>> Pan

Trunks is somewhat odd because with SSG he was able to overcome threats equivalent to SS4/SSB fusions but, from what I know, isn't too impressive afterwards. I think he's somewhere above SS4/SSB level but probably below LBSS4/SSBE level.

Where exactly Pan lies is hard to gauge because she has no real notable combat roles or feats but she's probably weaker than any of the base Time Patrollers (Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Trunks, Base Goten, Base Gohan)
Click to expand...
Is she in Low 1-C or weaker?
 
NishizumiShiho said:
Thank God someone finally tidying up both CC Goku and Xeno Goku page. It was such a mess before.
Click to expand...
that someone is me
NishizumiShiho said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Vegito

Vegito is the Potara Fusion of Son Goku and Vegeta, who had appeared in two sagas; The Goku black saga and the Majin Buu saga. Originally formed to defeat Majin Buu after he had absorbed Gohan, and later reappearing to fight Fusion Zamasu. While all fusions have immense power, Vegito's power is...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Not gonna lie, the profile really irks me for some reason.
Click to expand...
Not even aware these new shit, well, let see if i can do anything.

you guys are so terrible at formating profiles
 
Spinoirr said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Vegito (DBS Manga)

Vegito is the Potara Fusion of Son Goku and Vegeta, originally formed to defeat Majin Buu after he had absorbed Gohan, and later reappearing to fight Fusion Zamasu. While all fusions have immense power, Vegito's power is abnormal even by Potara standards, as Vegeta and Goku's intense rivalry has...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

this one needs to be updated
Click to expand...
What about it needs to be updated?
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
That the match wouldn´t probably be able to be added if one of the main reasons Hit lost was because speed was equalized
Click to expand...
The thing is that statement in our Wiki is weird af. Yes Hit didn't lose due to speed because Obito outhaxed him. But if we take speed away we also essentially take a win condition away as well cause he would have speedblitzed him before Obito could birth his next thought
 
RinneItachi said:
GUYS, WE JUST GOT SOME HUGE LEAKS.

Next arc, Black Frieza travels to the Demon Realm, which is stated to be a realm transcending all dimensions and concepts, and later destroys it with a Dark Supernova. He then transcends the narrative and kills kills Tori-Bot, before, obviously, Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 4, then combines it with Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue, creating Azure Saiyan Instinct, a form so powerful that they had to have Antvasima come in and explain that it's canonically Boundless to casual readers.
Click to expand...
Dude why you bait me like that. I stopped believing after I read Tori bot....man it sounded so nice :p
 
Cass5373 said:
Couldn't Vegeta separate Luffy from his fruit, and wouldn't the same happen with Naruto and the power of Rikoudou Sennin?
Click to expand...
He can I literally pointed out it out on the post and I got downvoted

And as I already mentioned people literally said that it is ooc for ue vegeta to use hakai wtf
 
Jaakor48 said:
There is a consistent gap in their ability to lift things over their head and weighted clothing.

Every single 'low end" feat they have us with weighted clothing (barring the megatta scene)

Goku/krillin pushing 500 or so ton boulder a shirt distance but training with 40kg,

Goku flipping a 116 ton piccolo while 113kg weights pose a challenge (this is the equivalent of wearing an armor the weight of an egg and flipping a full grown man)

The 40 tons is the same (it's 4000 tons actually, gravity was 100x I believe), weighted clothing


It's a similar thing to their travel and combat speed gap

At best, a note should be stated that their lifting strength in db/DBZ isn't the same when carrying weighted clothing just as there's one talking about travel and combat speed

Especially since their lifting strength is shown to be affected by their ki
Click to expand...
Yeah, that’s true. This is how it’d work in real life too. For example, the strongest man may be able to deadlift 1185 pounds, but if you put 600 pounds on his body he most likely will not be able to move or can barely move.

Eiither explaining that lifting is different from wearing, or separating wearing and lifting in the LS section. I would probably do the former, but there should be a note explaining why.


(Regarding the Magetta thing you can just say he added pressure to his feet.)
 
SirAlex09 said:
The thing is that statement in our Wiki is weird af. Yes Hit didn't lose due to speed because Obito outhaxed him. But if we take speed away we also essentially take a win condition away as well cause he would have speedblitzed him before Obito could birth his next thought
Click to expand...
Speed equalisation is one of those things that I've started to dislike over time. All it does is punish characters for having high speed while giving the haxed absurd opportunities to win matches they could never win otherwise. Even starting with equalised speed and then allowing a character to use their speed-buffing abilities (e.g Dyspo with Lightspeed Mode or even just Goku using Afterimage) apparently invalidates their win.

I get the idea is to broaden match variety but after a while it just feels silly.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Speed equalisation is one of those things that I've started to dislike over time. All it does is punish characters for having high speed while giving the haxed absurd opportunities to win matches they could never win otherwise. Even starting with equalised speed and then allowing a character to use their speed-buffing abilities (e.g Dyspo with Lightspeed Mode or even just Goku using Afterimage) apparently invalidates their win.

I get the idea is to broaden match variety but after a while it just feels silly.
Click to expand...
Speed only matters on this wiki (for vs threads) if you have several different speeds.

Type MHS speed with a SoL attack.
 
Well to be honest, Vegeta hard counters both Luffy and Naruto. While they would still have Chakra and Haki, Naruto would lose Kurama, the powers of the other Eight Tailed Beasts, the 6oSP powers, and Sage Mode. Similarly, due to the spiritualistic nature of Devil Fruits, (and the fact it is an external power up given to him), Vegeta can separate it from him and nerf them. They're, by DEFINITION, what Forced Spirit Fission can undo.

Ichigo is immune due to the sole fact that while his power ups work through external means, they're actually 100% from an internal source. They basically use a middle man. Whether that be Rukia, his false Bankai, etc. They come from him but are harnessed through external forces that would make you think he'd be vulnerable. However, once Naruto and Luffy are gone it's Ichigo by himself versus Goku and Vegeta, who have much more combat experience and can get around him with illusions, teleportation, auto dodging, their pseudo-precog, sealing, paralysis, deconstruction, etc.

This is also ignoring that throughout the fight, even without technique and transformation multipliers, (such as Kaioken, or in the case of the Big 3/HST, things like Blut Vene, Boil Release, or Armament Haki), Goku and Vegeta passively grow in power through combat. Like, Vegeta taking a hit boosts his power above them, and with equal stamina he'd swiftly outgrow Ichigo even if they can't nail him with any of their hax options, allowing them to kill them with a good ol' fashioned punch to the schnoz.

That said, before Moro and the Granolah Arcs, I think there's a case to be made that the HST could have won (in a stat equal). They'd have all their hax, which gives them precog (which only would have been countered by their predictions, and raw future vision is better than that), cellular level attacks, turning people into frog statues, corrosion, etc.
 
RedReaper said:
Well to be honest, Vegeta hard counters both Luffy and Naruto. While they would still have Chakra and Haki, Naruto would lose Kurama, the powers of the other Eight Tailed Beasts, the 6oSP powers, and Sage Mode. Similarly, due to the spiritualistic nature of Devil Fruits, (and the fact it is an external power up given to him), Vegeta can separate it from him and nerf them. They're, by DEFINITION, what Forced Spirit Fission can undo.

Ichigo is immune due to the sole fact that while his power ups work through external means, they're actually 100% from an internal source. They basically use a middle man. Whether that be Rukia, his false Bankai, etc. They come from him but are harnessed through external forces that would make you think he'd be vulnerable. However, once Naruto and Luffy are gone it's Ichigo by himself versus Goku and Vegeta, who have much more combat experience and can get around him with illusions, teleportation, auto dodging, their pseudo-precog, sealing, paralysis, deconstruction, etc.

This is also ignoring that throughout the fight, even without technique and transformation multipliers, (such as Kaioken, or in the case of the Big 3/HST, things like Blut Vene, Boil Release, or Armament Haki), Goku and Vegeta passively grow in power through combat. Like, Vegeta taking a hit boosts his power above them, and with equal stamina he'd swiftly outgrow Ichigo even if they can't nail him with any of their hax options, allowing them to kill them with a good ol' fashioned punch to the schnoz.

That said, before Moro and the Granolah Arcs, I think there's a case to be made that the HST could have won (in a stat equal). They'd have all their hax, which gives them precog (which only would have been countered by their predictions, and raw future vision is better than that), cellular level attacks, turning people into frog statues, corrosion, etc.
Click to expand...
All I see here is facts🔥🔥🔥

I think people have this misconception that dragon ball characters are completely haxless and all they know is just to punch and kick
 
Killerdrone123 said:
All I see here is facts🔥🔥🔥

I think people have this misconception that dragon ball characters are completely haxless and all they know is just to punch and kick
Click to expand...
Yeah, but in my opinion this misconception comes from the fact Toriyama/Toyotaru/Toei doesn't remember he makes them do more. Like the God Bind, or Intent (Goku V Trunks)/Mind (Goku meeting Krillin on Namek) Reading, Sealing, or being resistant to Pressure Points. (Whether that be in OG DB where he tanks one that should leave him out for a week, or the fact he canonically learned them and should be able to defend, or the fact he can predict them and prevent attacks to them ala Hit, because despite all of that Granolah just can affect them regardless). Just generally speaking, all Toriyama/Toyotaru/Toei DOES is have them punch, kick, and energy blast when Goku totally could have at least tried one of his one-off techniques.

Unlike nowadays with other Shonen, where there's a lot larger focus on "OP Hax Abilities."
 
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