Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Phsccarvalho]

@Fezzih_007 He fought the manga version, which doesn't have this.

 

[ChronoULT]

If the Kaioshins create planets and lives, and the Gods of destruction destroy everything and such

Then the Gods of destruction insisted years of creation, Beerus in the manga mentions that before creation comes destruction.

And did the Kaioshins create the entire Dragon Ball Universe?

It's stated in Heroes that big bangs that births universes, although it's non-canon information

 

[Fezzih_007]

@Fezzih_007 He fought the manga version, which doesn't have this.

I am aware, yeah.

But originally, he was put against the Anime version, which stomped him, and then he got changed to the manga version. My post was refering to that.

 

[RedReaper616]

This is because a new time line was created by altering beerus, it has nothing to do with hakai. This isn't even in the profile of guys who have hakai.

No no, Beerus outright states that Hakai will alter the Future Timeline. Not create a new Timeline, but shape the next events. And according to Black, when they arrive to the future and POINT THIS OUT, Beerus was correct, Black was just IMMUNE to that change IN his history and became a LIVING PARADOX thanks to his Time Ring, essentially bypassing the Temporal/Causal Effects Hakai has on time. At least in Anime. The Manga's variation of events is slightly different and doesn't include this. However, the point remains nonetheless.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

It's stated in Heroes that big bangs that births universes, although it's non-canon information

If the Kaioshins create planets and lives, and the Gods of destruction destroy everything and such

Then the Gods of destruction insisted years of creation, Beerus in the manga mentions that before creation comes destruction.

And did the Kaioshins create the entire Dragon Ball Universe?

Beerus was refering the Big bang when he said that "before creation comes destruction", so maybe a big bang created the DB universe?

 

[Omegabronic]

No no, Beerus outright states that Hakai will alter the Future Timeline. Not create a new Timeline, but shape the next events. And according to Black, when they arrive to the future and POINT THIS OUT, Beerus was correct, Black was just IMMUNE to that change IN his history and became a LIVING PARADOX thanks to his Time Ring, essentially bypassing the Temporal/Causal Effects Hakai has on time. At least in Anime. The Manga's variation of events is slightly different and doesn't include this. However, the point remains nonetheless.

this is more so Hakai ignoring the "changes in the past makes time diverge into a new timeline" than anything else, it would be limited causality manipulation at best, specially since we know the past of Zamasu wasn't erased

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

this is more so Hakai ignoring the "changes in the past makes time diverge into a new timeline" than anything else, it would be limited causality manipulation at best, specially since we know the past of Zamasu wasn't erased

Don't see why Past Zamasu also wasn't erased

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It's stated in Heroes that big bangs that births universes, although it's non-canon information

But it's official, that's what we have so far.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Beerus was refering the Big bang when he said that "before creation comes destruction", so maybe a big bang created the DB universe?

There's hardly a theory about Big Bang in Dragon Ball, where the verse debunks everything and tells us that the Kaioshins create planets and they are the only Gods of creation

 

[Phsccarvalho]

No no, Beerus outright states that Hakai will alter the Future Timeline. Not create a new Timeline, but shape the next events. And according to Black, when they arrive to the future and POINT THIS OUT, Beerus was correct, Black was just IMMUNE to that change IN his history and became a LIVING PARADOX thanks to his Time Ring, essentially bypassing the Temporal/Causal Effects Hakai has on time. At least in Anime. The Manga's variation of events is slightly different and doesn't include this. However, the point remains nonetheless.

This is something that is not in the profiles, so it makes no difference to Goku vs Reinhard.

In addition to what Omega said.

 

[RedReaper616]

this is more so Hakai ignoring the "changes in the past makes time diverge into a new timeline" than anything else, it would be limited causality manipulation at best, specially since we know the past of Zamasu wasn't erased

The Past Version of Zamasu WAS erased. He was totally deleted.

What survived was Black, who was free from that Death via the Time Ring.

Second, to get the transcript:

DUB: "When I kill a God, it affects all flows of time."

SUB: "When a God kills another god, there's no way space-time won't be unaffected."

So the intent or implication isn't that it's ignoring the rules of creating new Timelines, (in fact, the Time Ring itself FORCES Beerus to create a new timeline by killing Zamasu and preventing the GoD's kill from affecting the Future), and more just straight up being an attack that works beyond "space-time" or directly affects "space-time." Again, within the context of the Anime.

Edit: And if you mean in the sense that Beerus intended that the Future of the Present Timeline, that is incorrect. He was specifically referring to it affecting TRUNKS' Future. So not that, either.

 

[Omegabronic]

The Past Version of Zamasu WAS erased. He was totally deleted.

Ok then, how does everyone remember Zamasu then if he never existed, thus they never met him?

Second, to get the transcript:

DUB: "When I kill a God, it affects all flows of time."

the dub sure is more impressive

SUB: "When a God kills another god, there's no way space-time won't be unaffected."

So the intent or implication isn't that it's ignoring the rules of creating new Timelines, (in fact, the Time Ring itself FORCES Beerus to create a new timeline by killing Zamasu and preventing the GoD's kill from affecting the Future), and more just straight up being an attack that works beyond "space-time" or directly affects "space-time." Again, within the context of the Anime.

the Zamasu Beerus erase was the Zamasu that would steal Goku's body, so in context what he means is that, contrary to normal time travel, when a god kills another space time doesn't diverge into another timeline, but works the mode standard "change past = change future" with Black only not being affected because his time ring makes his present self be unnafected by his past self

Edit: And if you mean in the sense that Beerus intended that the Future of the Present Timeline, that is incorrect. He was specifically referring to it affecting TRUNKS' Future. So not that, either.

No idea what you mean here?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Ok then, how does everyone remember Zamasu then if he never existed, thus they never met him?


the dub sure is more impressive


the Zamasu Beerus erase was the Zamasu that would steal Goku's body, so in context what he means is that, contrary to normal time travel, when a god kills another space time doesn't diverge into another timeline, but works the mode standard "change past = change future" with Black only not being affected because his time ring makes his present self be unnafected by his past self


No idea what you mean here?

I might be wrong but didn't anime explain that since past version of zamasu had a time ring that's why he was unaffected by the hakai killing him in the present

 

[RedReaper616]

I might be wrong but didn't anime explain that since past version of zamasu had a time ring that's why he was unaffected by the hakai killing him in the present

Correct.

 

[Omegabronic]

I might be wrong but didn't anime explain that since past version of zamasu had a time ring that's why he was unaffected by the hakai killing him in the present

Past version of Zamasu? You mean Black?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ok then, how does everyone remember Zamasu then if he never existed, thus they never met him?


the dub sure is more impressive


the Zamasu Beerus erase was the Zamasu that would steal Goku's body, so in context what he means is that, contrary to normal time travel, when a god kills another space time doesn't diverge into another timeline, but works the mode standard "change past = change future" with Black only not being affected because his time ring makes his present self be unnafected by his past self


No idea what you mean here?

Zeno also nuked a timeline and everyone still remembers Zamasu and everything that happened there, sooooo
Heroes Zamasu has High Godly due to Zeno's history wipe

 

[Killerdrone123]

Past version of Zamasu? You mean Black?

Yep that's why the whole new timeline created happen

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Zeno also nuked a timeline and everyone still remembers Zamasu and everything that happened there, sooooo
Heroes Zamasu has High Godly due to Zeno's history wipe

Because a timeline completely separate from the other

 

[RedReaper616]

Ok then, how does everyone remember Zamasu then if he never existed, thus they never met him?

The Time Ring explicitly kept him alive despite the actions that occur.

the dub sure is more impressive

The point remains across both TLs-The move works across time.

the Zamasu Beerus erase was the Zamasu that would steal Goku's body, so in context what he means is that, contrary to normal time travel, when a god kills another space time doesn't diverge into another timeline, but works the mode standard "change past = change future" with Black only not being affected because his time ring makes his present self be unnafected by his past self

Yes-Which explicitly includes things like Trunks. Trunks himself points out he should have disappeared if Beerus was correct. And we learn Beerus WAS correct. The Time Ring just made Black immune to all changes in Time, meaning even his actions/existence are still remembered. and thus Trunks stayed as a consequence. Living Paradox.

No idea what you mean here?

I'll leave this alone because it wasn't what you meant.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yep that's why the whole new timeline created happen

Ok then, thanks for clarifying, Yeah that is what happened, the time ring protects you from changes of your past

Zeno also nuked a timeline and everyone still remembers Zamasu and everything that happened there, sooooo
Heroes Zamasu has High Godly due to Zeno's history wipe

Zeno having a contradiction doesn't add much to solving the problem

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Trunks himself wasn't from that timeline, the original Trunks from that timeline was killed and Trunks from Z took his place

 

[Omegabronic]

The Time Ring explicitly kept him alive despite the actions that occur.

What about his past selves that didn't had a time ring?

The point remains across both TLs-The move works across time.

No because the japanese one means a completely different thing in context, while the dub is clear cut in what it says

Yes-Which explicitly includes things like Trunks. Trunks himself points out he should have disappeared if Beerus was correct. And we learn Beerus WAS correct. The Time Ring just made Black immune to all changes in Time, meaning even his actions/existence are still remembered.

aka it made black immune to changes in his own timeline of events, thus forcing the timeline to split as normally happens in contrary to what Beerus said would happen

I'll leave this alone because it wasn't what you meant.

Ok then

 

[RedReaper616]

Zeno having a contradiction doesn't add much to solving the problem

But there ISN'T a contradiction? Zeno isn't stated to be able to manipulate the events of Time like Beerus can. And even if we assumed he could, nuking an entire timeline doesn't create a paradox between another timeline's past, present, and future.

And again, the Time Ring prevented Hakai from taking affect, so any and all things that still existed afterwards are not contradictions. They are the consequences of the Time Ring.

 

[Omegabronic]

Trunks himself wasn't from that timeline, the original Trunks from that timeline was killed and Trunks from Z took his place

The sky is blue and dirt is brown, i couldn't help myself to not meme arround, as a fellow Brazilian you are, i couldn't help but comentar

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The sky is blue and dirt is brown, i couldn't help myself to not meme arround, as a fellow Brazilian you are, i couldn't help but comentar

I didn't understand

 

[Omegabronic]

But there ISN'T a contradiction? Zeno isn't stated to be able to manipulate the events of Time like Beerus can. And even if we assumed he could, nuking an entire timeline doesn't create a paradox between another timeline's past, present, and future.

Ok

And again, the Time Ring prevented Hakai from taking affect, so any and all things that still existed afterwards are not contradictions. They are the consequences of the Time Ring.

The hakai is not what ia said to be doing that, Beerus explicitly says that it was the act of one god killing another god, not the hakai

 

[Omegabronic]

I didn't understand

Exactly

 

[RedReaper616]

What about his past selves that didn't had a time ring?

Black himself states he IS that same Zamasu. By wearing the Time Ring he becomes immune to changes in his history and a Living Paradox. Then by appearing in the Present Timeline he creates the reason they leave to meet said Zamasu-As in, the consequences of his actions (as well as a Bootstrap Paradox). Which, as pointed out by Trunks, includes the Hybrid himself.

In Summary: Black, his actions, and consequences are not affected by Hakai because Time Ring.

Black's Actions (Black's Arrival in the Past, cannot be altered by Hakai) -> Black's Consequences (Goku Meets Zamasu, cannot be altered by Hakai) -> This creates Black, who wears the Time Ring (Cannot be erased by Hakai) ----> (Eventually) Black arrives to the Past. Repeat ad infinitum.

No because the japanese one means a completely different thing in context, while the dub is clear cut in what it says

The point of it affecting Trunks' Timeline is the same. Which was the initial point I was making.

aka it made black immune to changes in his own timeline of events, thus forcing the timeline to split as normally happens in contrary to what Beerus said would happen

Which is not a contradiction.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Exactly

Then it doesn't matter if I play too

 

[RedReaper616]

The hakai is not what ia said to be doing that, Beerus explicitly says that it was the act of one god killing another god, not the hakai

This is irrelevant to the point, being that the attack/Beerus himself (as a God) at least would have affected the Future. Which was prevented by the Time Ring.

 

[Omegabronic]

Black himself states he IS that same Zamasu. By wearing the Time Ring he becomes immune to changes in his history and a Living Paradox. Then by appearing in the Present Timeline he creates the reason they leave to meet said Zamasu-As in, the consequences of his actions (as well as a Bootstrap Paradox). Which, as pointed out by Trunks, includes the Hybrid himself.

In Summary: Black, his actions, and consequences are not affected by Hakai because Time Ring.

Black's Actions (Black's Arrival in the Past, cannot be altered by Hakai) -> Black's Consequences (Goku Meets Zamasu, cannot be altered by Hakai) -> This creates Black, who wears the Time Ring (Cannot be erased by Hakai) ----> (Eventually) Black arrives to the Past. Repeat ad infinitum.

All of this is about Black himself, his actions wouldn't change, but the Zamasu's of the past that didn't had a Time Ring wouldn't be there, but anyway, all that you said can be true regardless if mine or your point is correct, so i see no reason to talk about it further

The point of it affecting Trunks' Timeline is the same. Which was the initial point I was making.

the Zamasu is the same, erasing his past would affect his present self, even if he was in another timeline, it is still his past, at which by Beerus statement, when a god kills another time works as more normally assumed, that being your past changing affecting your future instead of it creating anothet timeline

Which is not a contradiction.

.....i don't know exactly what you are refering to, nor am i certain why you said this here? Pardon me, but i don't get it?

 

[Omegabronic]

This is irrelevant to the point, being that the attack/Beerus himself (as a God) at least would have affected the Future. Which was prevented by the Time Ring.

That would apply to all gods, and only when killing another god, as that was the reason beerua gave

 

[RedReaper616]

the Zamasu is the same, erasing his past would affect his present self, even if he was in another timeline, it is still his past, at which by Beerus statement, when a god kills another time works as more normally assumed, that being your past changing affecting your future instead of it creating anothet timeline

I feel like you didn't really process what I was trying to explain before. The consequences of Black's actions are not affected. Black's actions influence the Present Timeline. Thus that past Zamasu, no matter what, cannot be erased, as he is a CONSEQUENCE of Black's arrival.

.....i don't know exactly what you are refering to, nor am i certain why you said this here? Pardon me, but i don't get it?

I'm saying there's no contradiction in facts here.
Zeno's move isn't stated to affect the history of others.
Beerus' attack has no contradictions, Zamasu's history could not be touched thanks to the Time Ring. And people remember him because of it and how it protects his actions, and consequences.
And forcing the Timeline to split creates none, either.

 

[RedReaper616]

That would apply to all gods, and only when killing another god, as that was the reason beerua gave

Which would still affect the Future. Which is the point.

 

[Tipper17]

Man we need new feats fast cause we can't be having the same convo on the same shit

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is irrelevant to the point, being that the attack/Beerus himself (as a God) at least would have affected the Future. Which was prevented by the Time Ring.

 

[RedReaper616]

Man we need new feats fast cause we can't be having the same convo on the same shit

Can't wait for new Kid Goku scaling in Dragon Ball Daima.

"Well you see, Kid Goku in Daima is stated to be as strong as his OG Kid self from the Original Series, and Daima Goku was able to blow up THREE steel walls, meaning that the old Kid Goku scaling has to be changed-"

Actually, once Daima drops, does Goku regain Blessed for that key? Since he got reset into a kid, or does it not count because he technically grew up?

 

[Quantu]

Man we need new feats fast cause we can't be having the same convo on the same shit

DBS isn't having impressive feats anytime soon unfortunately. Maybe a other galaxy level flex from a villain ala Toyotarou style.

 

[Ss3micah]

I find it impressive how y’all manage to keep finding new parts on Zamasu’s rotting corpse that has not been pissed on already

 

[RedReaper616]

DBS isn't having impressive feats anytime soon unfortunately. Maybe a other galaxy level flex from a villain ala Toyotarou style.

Can't wait for the "Big Thing" for this chapter to be something completely random and out of pocket.